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Legalize it All?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Should we legalize drugs?

Yes, legalize them all.
91
25%
Just decriminalize them.
66
18%
Only some, not all.
124
34%
No.
81
22%
 
Total votes : 362

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Prussia-Steinbach
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Legalize it All?

Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:53 pm

Today, the decriminalization or legalization of cannabis is an increasingly well-accepted idea, with four US states (and Uruguay) allowing it for recreational usage and many more for medical purposes. Most Generalites seem to be in favor of it, acknowledging this forum's socially-liberal leanings. A more contentious issue is the decriminalization or legalization of harder drugs - highly stigmatized substances such as cocaine, amphetamines, and heroin, along with ones that are physically harmless, such as LSD and psilocybin mushrooms.

Many are convinced that across-the-board drug decriminalization (see the difference between decriminalization and legalization here) would result in something akin to a societal breakdown. Everyone would be too high to go to work. Children would be dying in the streets, needle in arm. Gangs would run free, addicting everyone and everything to their Satanic product. This is, to put it mildly, really fucking incorrect.

Portugal decriminalized hard drugs, and that hasn't happened to them. In fact, quite the opposite: drug use in there is actually down by half. Instead of jailing an addict for years and blazing their path toward lifelong recidivism, ruining their lives more than the drugs probably ever would have, Portugal discards the drugs and recommends the "offender" to a rehab center.

The Drug War in America has been a catastrophically expensive, harmful, racist, and evil failure. Almost 700,000 non-violent drug offenders were arrested in 2013, because they possessed something the government (or, perhaps, the private prison lobbies) didn't want them to have. Ignoring the fact that drugs like cannabis, psilocybin, LSD, MDMA, mescaline, DMT, etc, are not only effectively harmless but also are very possibly beneficial to mental health, this seems like an affront to justice in its own right.

Terence McKenna once said that "psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window. Psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and culturally laid down models of behavior and information processing. They open you up to the possibility that everything you know is wrong."

I admit to being a bit of a psychonaut myself, but I would agree with that statement. I believe all drugs - psychedelics, opiates, and stimulants alike - should be fully legalized, in the interest of freedom, justice, and rationality. I mean, should we ignore all of the following?

Cannabis. Can possibly cure cancer. 23 Other Benefits. LSD has a variety of benefits, including reducing anxiety and curing alcoholism. Mushrooms can cure depression, and can cause lasting personality changes for the better. Opiates are the best painkillers in the world, and are already over-prescribed. Need I say more? And we're giving weak meth to small children already.

Legalizing drugs would make a huge dent in cartel profits, and would ensure users had knowledge of exactly what's in their substance, not to mention its exact potency - which would likely have a big effect on overdoses.

What say you, NSG? Should we legalize it all?
Last edited by Prussia-Steinbach on Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unnamed island state
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Postby Unnamed island state » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:57 pm

Cannabis and LSD being ok does not necessitate that all drugs should be legal. Likely if you're arguing for complete legalization your argument would be more along the lines of "people should be allowed to do anything they consent to" (forgive me if that isn't a very good description of liberalism). And so you wouldn't argue that LSD and Cannabis are not bad, but that people should be allowed to consume them if they like, because they hurt no one, and it's consensual, etc. Arguing for complete legalization based on the economic benefits, vary based on people's moral intuitions.

Also the article which claims that drug use in Portugal went down, has broken sources.

And for myself, I'm ok with Cannabis/LSD legalization, but oppose harmful drugs based on my paternalistic communitarian values.
Last edited by Unnamed island state on Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Donut section » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:00 pm

At a minimum we should depenalise it all upto certain levels of crimes, such as large scale trafficing and production. With personal amounts ignored so police have more resources to go after big fish and supply and lower level trafficing having maximum penalties as confiscation and small fines.

But yeah full legalisation is the dream.

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:00 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Legalizing drugs would make a huge dent in cartel profits


That bit is very debatable, it certainly didn't around here at least.

I don't buy into the "it'll stop crime" thing but I do support legalizing most drugs.
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Tolko Temnota
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Postby Tolko Temnota » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:00 pm

Yes please, if only because locking addicts up doesn't help them in the slightest, and cartels having any power is not something I want.
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Kraylandia
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Postby Kraylandia » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:02 pm

Legalise soft drugs but keep the hard ones illegal.
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:05 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Legalizing drugs would make a huge dent in cartel profits

That bit is very debatable, it certainly didn't around here at least.

I don't buy into the "it'll stop crime" thing but I do support legalizing most drugs.

All drugs are legalized in your part of the US?

As for weed, I don't know anybody that buys weed from out of state any more. Only from the dispensaries or local growers.
I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.
The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:05 pm

Kraylandia wrote:Legalise soft drugs but keep the hard ones illegal.

Why?
I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.
The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


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New Zepuha
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Postby New Zepuha » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:05 pm

Legalize Ranch Dressing.
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Wisconsin9
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Postby Wisconsin9 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:06 pm

Yes, I support across-the-board legalization, grudgingly. People should have the right to do as they please, so long as nobody who doesn't consent is harmed.
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:07 pm

Unnamed island state wrote:Cannabis and LSD being ok does not necessitate that all drugs should be legal. Likely if you're arguing for complete legalization your argument would be more along the lines of "people should be allowed to do anything they consent to" (forgive me if that isn't a very good description of liberalism). And so you wouldn't argue that LSD and Cannabis are not bad, but that people should be allowed to consume them if they like, because they hurt no one, and it's consensual, etc. Arguing for complete legalization based on the economic benefits, vary based on people's moral intuitions.

Also the article which claims that drug use in Portugal went down, has broken sources.

And for myself, I'm ok with Cannabis/LSD legalization, but oppose harmful drugs based on my paternalistic communitarian values.

1. I figured I could put forth the fact it's a victimless crime within the thread. It's fairly evident, I didn't think it needed to be said.

2. What the fuck are these "paternalistic communitarian values" you won't stop talking about?
I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.
The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


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Utilitarian Garibaldi
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Postby Utilitarian Garibaldi » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:07 pm

Drugs neutralize the proletariat and delay the revolution!

We should let capitalists illegalize them so that we can eventually hang them with the rope they sell us!

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Kraylandia
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Postby Kraylandia » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:07 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Kraylandia wrote:Legalise soft drugs but keep the hard ones illegal.

Why?


Heroin users running around the streets freely? No thanks.
You can call me Luci
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent..
Jello is my bored buddy!
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⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing ⚧

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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:08 pm

Kraylandia wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Why?

Heroin users running around the streets freely? No thanks.

Are you under the impression they aren't already doing that? That the cops snatch up anyone as soon as they buy a bag?

And exactly why shouldn't they be free..? They aren't hurting anyone.
I don't care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do.
The question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it. ― William S. Burroughs


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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:09 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:That bit is very debatable, it certainly didn't around here at least.

I don't buy into the "it'll stop crime" thing but I do support legalizing most drugs.

All drugs are legalized in your part of the US?

As for weed, I don't know anybody that buys weed from out of state any more. Only from the dispensaries or local growers.


No, I was only talking about weed. But unless it costs the cartels a lot to get the product they'll still make money. Or get into the now legal market.

Either way, I support legalizing most drugs. If people want to do X drug, let them.
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Wisconsin9
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Postby Wisconsin9 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:10 pm

Utilitarian Garibaldi wrote:Drugs neutralize the proletariat and delay the revolution!

We should let capitalists illegalize them so that we can eventually hang them with the rope they sell us!

So long as it's hemp rope.

Kraylandia wrote:
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:Why?


Heroin users running around the streets freely? No thanks.

Some places have laws against public intoxication. I don't see why that couldn't be extended beyond alcohol.
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Kazirstan
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Postby Kazirstan » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:11 pm

That's what I'd like to see, full legalisation and regulation. If you can get your drugs from a licensed and reputable dealer, it makes the drugs much safer. Knowing exactly what's in the drugs and the potency of it is quite helpful.

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Kraylandia
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Postby Kraylandia » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:12 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Kraylandia wrote:Heroin users running around the streets freely? No thanks.

Are you under the impression they aren't already doing that? That the cops snatch up anyone as soon as they buy a bag?

And exactly why shouldn't they be free..? They aren't hurting anyone.


Are you under the impression they aren't already doing that?


Of course they are, but there would be plenty more on the streets if it were legal.

That the cops snatch up anyone as soon as they buy a bag?


No, that would be impossible.

And exactly why shouldn't they be free..?


See below.

They aren't hurting anyone.


What about the ones that kill and rob to feed their addiction? I've lived around drug addicts (not my family or friends, just people in old areas that I used to stay in and they aren't exactly the nicest of people.)
You can call me Luci
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent..
Jello is my bored buddy!
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Kraylandia
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Postby Kraylandia » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:12 pm

Wisconsin9 wrote:Some places have laws against public intoxication. I don't see why that couldn't be extended beyond alcohol.


Never thought of that. Perhaps a good idea!
You can call me Luci
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent..
Jello is my bored buddy!
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⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing ⚧

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Unnamed island state
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Postby Unnamed island state » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:14 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Unnamed island state wrote:Cannabis and LSD being ok does not necessitate that all drugs should be legal. Likely if you're arguing for complete legalization your argument would be more along the lines of "people should be allowed to do anything they consent to" (forgive me if that isn't a very good description of liberalism). And so you wouldn't argue that LSD and Cannabis are not bad, but that people should be allowed to consume them if they like, because they hurt no one, and it's consensual, etc. Arguing for complete legalization based on the economic benefits, vary based on people's moral intuitions.

Also the article which claims that drug use in Portugal went down, has broken sources.

And for myself, I'm ok with Cannabis/LSD legalization, but oppose harmful drugs based on my paternalistic communitarian values.

1. I figured I could put forth the fact it's a victimless crime within the thread. It's fairly evident, I didn't think it needed to be said.

2. What the fuck are these "paternalistic communitarian values" you won't stop talking about?

My blood sugar is low right now, I'll respond in a few minutes, maybe a hour.
Last edited by Unnamed island state on Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Prussia-Steinbach
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Postby Prussia-Steinbach » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:15 pm

Kraylandia wrote:Of course they are, but there would be plenty more on the streets if it were legal.

...no, there wouldn't. That's been proven. Drug use goes down when they're decriminalized.
Kraylandia wrote:What about the ones that kill and rob to feed their addiction? I've lived around drug addicts (not my family or friends, just people in old areas that I used to stay in and they aren't exactly the nicest of people.)

The vast majority of drug users never commit crimes to feed their addiction. Most, in fact, have jobs.
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Daburuetchi
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Postby Daburuetchi » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:25 pm

Heck no. Soft drugs fine but all of them? That would result in a catastrophic market failure. While the war on drugs should be ended we should focus on rehabilitation not legalization

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Hakons
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Postby Hakons » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:26 pm

Because we need more legal products that people can use to forget their problems instead of solving them?
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Daburuetchi
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Postby Daburuetchi » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:29 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Kraylandia wrote:Heroin users running around the streets freely? No thanks.

Are you under the impression they aren't already doing that? That the cops snatch up anyone as soon as they buy a bag?

And exactly why shouldn't they be free..? They aren't hurting anyone.


Umm slavery through the needle? That does in fact hurt people and ruin their lives.
Last edited by Daburuetchi on Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:30 pm

Hakons wrote:Because we need more legal products that people can use to forget their problems instead of solving them?


Because keeping them illegal has solved so many of the world's problems.

Personally, my opinion is that drugs should be legalized on a case-by-case basis taking into consideration the relative harm. Not to mention the simple fact that it is easier than ever to produce and distribute them and will only get easier as technological developments remove barriers to entry.
Last edited by Vetalia on Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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