Should illegals be given the right to Vote

[Hugdom]

Voting is a right.

Rights belong only to citizens.

/endthread

So it's not a right

[San Lumen]

Voting is a right.

Rights belong only to citizens.

/endthread

So it's not a right

voting is a right that every citizen has.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Rights belong only to citizens.

Aaaaand that's sickening.

Non-citizens don't have rights, now? No human rights whatsoever? They can be tortured, arrested without a warrant or even a reason? They can be raped at will now? Dare I even ask about their right to a trial of any sort?

[Mike from Progressive]

Rights belong only to citizens.

Aaaaand that's sickening.

Non-citizens don't have rights, now? No human rights whatsoever? They can be tortured, arrested without a warrant or even a reason? They can be raped at will now? Dare I even ask about their right to a trial of any sort?

Exactly. That's why we need a three-fifths compromise.

[Wallenburg]

Illegal immigrants are not citizens, so no.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Illegal immigrants are not citizens, so no.

Even though they pay into taxes more than they take out? Even though they live here? Even though they work here? Even though the laws affect them just as much as they do everyone else?

[Ardoki]

You mean how 51% of them consume welfare? Look, I'm fine with illegals being productive members of society, they should be allowed to stay, but those who do nothing but be a leech on the public domain, hell, they broke the law, and now, they are taking from other people?! Yeah, of course they should be deported. They could come in legally, and not take welfare, but nope, they flipped the bird to those who want to come in legally and just broke the law and came in.

Fuck the law. Law doesn't determine morality.

Also:

http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/high-s ... mmigration

"Immigrants pay taxes, in the form of income, property, sales, and taxes at the federal and state level. As far as income tax payments go, sources vary in their accounts, but a range of studies find that immigrants pay between $90 and $140 billion a year in federal, state, and local taxes. Undocumented immigrants pay income taxes as well, as evidenced by the Social Security Administration's "suspense file" (taxes that cannot be matched to workers' names and social security numbers), which grew by $20 billion between 1990 and 1998."

"Immigrants come to work and reunite with family members. Immigrant labor force participation is consistently higher than native-born, and immigrant workers make up a larger share of the U.S. labor force (12.4%) than they do the U.S. population (11.5%). Moreover, the ratio between immigrant use of public benefits and the amount of taxes they pay is consistently favorable to the U.S. In one estimate, immigrants earn about $240 billion a year, pay about $90 billion a year in taxes, and use about $5 billion in public benefits. In another cut of the data, immigrant tax payments total $20 to $30 billion more than the amount of government services they use."

"During the 1990s, half of all new workers were foreign-born, filling gaps left by native-born workers in both the high- and low-skill ends of the spectrum. Immigrants fill jobs in key sectors, start their own businesses, and contribute to a thriving economy. The net benefit of immigration to the U.S. is nearly $10 billion annually. As Alan Greenspan points out, 70% of immigrants arrive in prime working age. That means we haven't spent a penny on their education, yet they are transplanted into our workforce and will contribute $500 billion toward our social security system over the next 20 years."

Sources for all of that within the link. And just to bolster all of that.

Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. If they did, they would be detected by the government and deported. If they let the government know of their existence, they have basically signed their own deportation order.

[Confederation of Common Sense]

Pfft, what kind of libertarian promotes assimilation into a singular culture and forces people to work? What kind of libertarian actually believes in the bullshit that is an artificial border that treats people like objects?

Also, illegal immigrants contribute more to society than they could ever possibly take out.

Which is exactly why I no longer identify as a libertarian, but more so of an old rightist. I might possess socially libertarian views, such as legalizing drugs, opposing unwarranted electronic surveillance or the drug war, but on the issue of immigration, I support assimilating immigrants and securing the border.

You mean how 51% of them consume welfare? Look, I'm fine with illegals being productive members of society, they should be allowed to stay, but those who do nothing but be a leech on the public domain, hell, they broke the law, and now, they are taking from other people?! Yeah, of course they should be deported. They could come in legally, and not take welfare, but nope, they flipped the bird to those who want to come in legally and just broke the law and came in.

If the law told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?

[Ardoki]

Illegal immigrants are not citizens, so no.

Even though they pay into taxes more than they take out? Even though they live here? Even though they work here? Even though the laws affect them just as much as they do everyone else?

No. They shouldn't be able to vote. That would only make the US electoral system shift even further right.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. If they did, they would be detected by the government and deported. If they let the government know of their existence, they have basically signed their own deportation order.

Um... no?

"Undocumented immigrants pay income taxes as well, as evidenced by the Social Security Administration's "suspense file" (taxes that cannot be matched to workers' names and social security numbers), which grew by $20 billion between 1990 and 1998."

Have you even ever known an illegal immigrant? Because I've worked with and know plenty of them. And bud, they pay taxes like everyone else, I can confirm. I won't get angry, because you've probably never had a job and are still at home, but the point stands. The government is getting billions of dollars from them - and they aren't getting nearly that much back.

[Confederation of Common Sense]

Fuck the law. Law doesn't determine morality.

Also:

http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/high-s ... mmigration

"Immigrants pay taxes, in the form of income, property, sales, and taxes at the federal and state level. As far as income tax payments go, sources vary in their accounts, but a range of studies find that immigrants pay between $90 and $140 billion a year in federal, state, and local taxes. Undocumented immigrants pay income taxes as well, as evidenced by the Social Security Administration's "suspense file" (taxes that cannot be matched to workers' names and social security numbers), which grew by $20 billion between 1990 and 1998."

"Immigrants come to work and reunite with family members. Immigrant labor force participation is consistently higher than native-born, and immigrant workers make up a larger share of the U.S. labor force (12.4%) than they do the U.S. population (11.5%). Moreover, the ratio between immigrant use of public benefits and the amount of taxes they pay is consistently favorable to the U.S. In one estimate, immigrants earn about $240 billion a year, pay about $90 billion a year in taxes, and use about $5 billion in public benefits. In another cut of the data, immigrant tax payments total $20 to $30 billion more than the amount of government services they use."

"During the 1990s, half of all new workers were foreign-born, filling gaps left by native-born workers in both the high- and low-skill ends of the spectrum. Immigrants fill jobs in key sectors, start their own businesses, and contribute to a thriving economy. The net benefit of immigration to the U.S. is nearly $10 billion annually. As Alan Greenspan points out, 70% of immigrants arrive in prime working age. That means we haven't spent a penny on their education, yet they are transplanted into our workforce and will contribute $500 billion toward our social security system over the next 20 years."

Sources for all of that within the link. And just to bolster all of that.

Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. If they did, they would be detected by the government and deported. If they let the government know of their existence, they have basically signed their own deportation order.

So you're in essence the arbiter of the existence of secret illegal immigrants?

[Kubra]

Of course they shouldn't be allowed to vote, imagine what they'd vote for in congress
lol oh wait

[Ardoki]

Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. If they did, they would be detected by the government and deported. If they let the government know of their existence, they have basically signed their own deportation order.

Um... no?

"Undocumented immigrants pay income taxes as well, as evidenced by the Social Security Administration's "suspense file" (taxes that cannot be matched to workers' names and social security numbers), which grew by $20 billion between 1990 and 1998."

Have you even ever known an illegal immigrant? Because I've worked with and know plenty of them. And bud, they pay taxes like everyone else, I can confirm. I won't get angry, because you've probably never had a job and are still at home, but the point stands. The government is getting billions of dollars from them - and they aren't getting nearly that much back.

That doesn't make sense.

The government would deport them, if they ever found out. It is impossible for them to pay taxes without deportation.

[Mike from Progressive]

Um... no?

"Undocumented immigrants pay income taxes as well, as evidenced by the Social Security Administration's "suspense file" (taxes that cannot be matched to workers' names and social security numbers), which grew by $20 billion between 1990 and 1998."

Have you even ever known an illegal immigrant? Because I've worked with and know plenty of them. And bud, they pay taxes like everyone else, I can confirm. I won't get angry, because you've probably never had a job and are still at home, but the point stands. The government is getting billions of dollars from them - and they aren't getting nearly that much back.

That doesn't make sense.

The government would deport them, if they ever found out. It is impossible for them to pay taxes without deportation.

Not necessarily.

[Ardoki]

Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. If they did, they would be detected by the government and deported. If they let the government know of their existence, they have basically signed their own deportation order.

So you're in essence the arbiter of the existence of secret illegal immigrants?

I never claimed illegal immigrants didn't exist. My post implied the opposite statement.

[NERVUN]

Why, though? You're stating that the state imposes duties, what duties?

If it's taxes, many illegal pay them. So, what?

If it's status, that's an easy fix, make them legal and...

Do you remember the part about how I said that states need the ability to exclude people in order to provide security and prosperity for their citizens? For their people? Remember how you said it was irrelevant? Well, it isn't.

If you let the illegals vote, you are treating them as de facto citizens. The nation has mechanisms to act as rate limiters and the like to preserve itself, national security, and national prosperity. Illegal immigration circumvents those limits and can thus undermine national strength, and while others will disagree, I believe that's very important for maintaining good conditions for the people living there.

We have a logic foul on the play. A =/= B. 5 yard penalty, continue from first down.

Voting does not a citizen make. Nor is it treating one as a citizen.

You keep saying "well what about me? I pay taxes", but it's not *about* you. Like an economy or a country, this is bigger than just a few individuals, and the aggregate effect has to be looked at.

If it were just one guy, I wouldn't care. But illegal immigration is never just one guy.

But many illegals DO pay taxes, apparently they DO have to register for the draft as well (huh, who knew?) so the question then becomes, at what point is the difference meaningful in any way?

Now, if we're talking the process, the process is broken, it needs be fixed. It's also very, very easy to just extend legality to the bulk and be done with it should we want to.

We're talking about voting rights and you have put forth the argument that voting rights should be restricted to JUST citizens. Well, why? THAT is what you have failed to answer and attempting to shift the argument doesn't answer the first question.

If you think illegal immigrants should be able to vote, do you think just anyone that's not literally a terrorist should be able to cross pver the border and live there? If not, why not?

We're debating your assertion that voting rights needs be restricted to citizens only, not a strawman of open borders.

[Ardoki]

Of course they shouldn't be allowed to vote, imagine what they'd vote for in congress
lol oh wait

Yes.

It would only make the Republicans even more powerful and extreme. Which is a very bad thing.

[Wallenburg]

Illegal immigrants are not citizens, so no.

Even though they pay into taxes more than they take out? Even though they live here? Even though they work here? Even though the laws affect them just as much as they do everyone else?

Yes. Then again, I support an easy process of legal immigration and an easier pathway to citizenship, along with amnesty for current illegal immigrants. I think it would be different if I didn't want them to have the opportunity to naturalize.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Um... no?

"Undocumented immigrants pay income taxes as well, as evidenced by the Social Security Administration's "suspense file" (taxes that cannot be matched to workers' names and social security numbers), which grew by $20 billion between 1990 and 1998."

Have you even ever known an illegal immigrant? Because I've worked with and know plenty of them. And bud, they pay taxes like everyone else, I can confirm. I won't get angry, because you've probably never had a job and are still at home, but the point stands. The government is getting billions of dollars from them - and they aren't getting nearly that much back.

That doesn't make sense.

The government would deport them, if they ever found out. It is impossible for them to pay taxes without deportation.

...um.

No. That's not true. The SSA has confirmed this. I've given you sources. I'm sorry you don't understand, but it's true. Every undocumented immigrant I have ever known has paid just as much income tax as I have (not to mention sales tax). None of them have been deported. There's dozens of billions of dollars going into the US government from legally nonexistent people. They are paying taxes. You can't just say "no, that doesn't make sense." Your lack of comprehension and real-world experience does not change the truth.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

That doesn't make sense.

The government would deport them, if they ever found out. It is impossible for them to pay taxes without deportation.

Not necessarily.

Not necessarily at all. I know plenty of undocumented immigrants that hopped the damn border and eventually got citizenship - by working, you know, with the government. Telling them they're here.

The world doesn't work that cleanly and efficiently. It isn't so black and white.

[Ardoki]

That doesn't make sense.

The government would deport them, if they ever found out. It is impossible for them to pay taxes without deportation.

...um.

No. That's not true. The SSA has confirmed this. I've given you sources. I'm sorry you don't understand, but it's true. Every undocumented immigrant I have ever known has paid just as much income tax as I have (not to mention sales tax). None of them have been deported. There's dozens of billions of dollars going into the US government from legally nonexistent people. They are paying taxes. You can't just say "no, that doesn't make sense." Your lack of comprehension and real-world experience does not change the truth.

You haven't given me any sources. At least not any links, which I can use to verify you are not just making up stuff.

Why would an illegal immigrant pay taxes, when they don't officially exist?
Why would the government not deport the illegal immigrant when they detect him/her?

[Ardoki]

If non-citizens have all the rights of citizens. There is no point in citizenship.

[Mike from Progressive]

If non-citizens have all the rights of citizens. There is no point in citizenship.

That's why we should allow non-citizens the right to vote, but we just give them three-fifths of the vote. The language in the constitutionis already there so we just modify it a bit and voila- equality.

[Kubra]

Of course they shouldn't be allowed to vote, imagine what they'd vote for in congress
lol oh wait

Yes.

It would only make the Republicans even more powerful and extreme. Which is a very bad thing.

the joke is that OP is Puerto Rican

[Ardoki]

If non-citizens have all the rights of citizens. There is no point in citizenship.

That's why we should allow non-citizens the right to vote, but we just give them three-fifths of the vote. The language in the constitutionis already there so we just modify it a bit and voila- equality.

No.

That would shift Western countries to the far-right. That is something I do not want.