Should illegals be given the right to Vote

[Geilinor]

What's the difference between a legal and an illegal immigrant besides not having papers?

That's a significant and important difference, don't you think?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Yes. I'm not a fan of borders, nations, or the concept of "citizenship" in general.

[Ashkera]

This... has nothing to do with the topic.

It's the basis for why states are justified in excluding people at all as opposed to no one. Ifreann keeps asking why illegal immigrants should not have the same rights. Well, that's why.

[Northern Freikur]

Of course they should. What if the immigrant was fleeing an authoritarian or proletariat regime?

Then they can immigrate legally with their fellow legal immigrants.

[Hugdom]

What's the difference between a legal and an illegal immigrant besides not having papers?

That's a significant and important difference, don't you think?

Well in my personal philosophical and political beliefs, no. People should be treated like people. And people should have a right to vote, not the privilege to vote. If it is a right and not a privilege then having documentation should not matter.

If it does, then stop calling it a right.

[NERVUN]

Excuse me, but exactly what duties are imposed by the state that immigrants (Ignoring status right now) do not fulfill except by some arbitrary line?

I'm an immigrant to Japan. I pay taxes, both national and local, I pay property taxes, I pay health insurance, I pay pension, I even volunteer as a firefighter...

So, exactly, what duty am I not fulfilling here?

But you are a LEGAL immigrant, is that correct? This argument is about ILLEGAL immigrants.

And you are saying that only CITIZENS should vote... one can be a legal immigrant and NOT take citizenship. It doesn't happen automatically you know.

So, what am I not doing?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

What's the difference between a legal and an illegal immigrant besides not having papers?

That's a significant and important difference, don't you think?

I don't think made-up lines on a tiny floating rock in the middle of space are important at all. I think the sentient beings on said rock are, however.

[NERVUN]

This... has nothing to do with the topic.

Yes it does.

Not really no.

[Northern Freikur]

Yes. I'm not a fan of borders, nations, or the concept of "citizenship" in general.

I'm guessing that you support the 'sovereign citizen' movement

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Of course they should. What if the immigrant was fleeing an authoritarian or proletariat regime?

...

A "proletariat" regime? Like, one ruled by the lower class?

...why is that a bad thing, exactly?

[Hugdom]

Yes. I'm not a fan of borders, nations, or the concept of "citizenship" in general.

I'm guessing that you support the 'sovereign citizen' movement

does that undermine his argument?

[NERVUN]

This... has nothing to do with the topic.

It's the basis for why states are justified in excluding people at all as opposed to no one. Ifreann keeps asking why illegal immigrants should not have the same rights. Well, that's why.

No, not really.

[Ashkera]

What's the difference between a legal and an illegal immigrant besides not having papers? And how can a person be illegal?

Gee, I don't know, the entire state naturalization process and all that goes with it? The records for law enforcement? All that sort of stuff?

The person isn't illegal, their actions are.

[Ashkera]

And you are saying that only CITIZENS should vote... one can be a legal immigrant and NOT take citizenship. It doesn't happen automatically you know.

So, what am I not doing?

Well, what you are doing is talking about the subject for a different thread. I don't mind the idea of Japan changing their laws to allow people to become citizens, but that is not the thread topic.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Yes. I'm not a fan of borders, nations, or the concept of "citizenship" in general.

I'm guessing that you support the 'sovereign citizen' movement

Do I seem like the kind of guy who associates with fundamentalist Christians, white supremacists, or right-wingers of any sort?

[Hugdom]

What's the difference between a legal and an illegal immigrant besides not having papers? And how can a person be illegal?

Gee, I don't know, the entire state naturalization process and all that goes with it? The records for law enforcement? All that sort of stuff?

The person isn't illegal, their actions are.

Yes, but why are those laws put into place and why should it matter to begin with? Is someone just not allotted rights because they don't have personal records? If so, stop calling it a right. It's a privilege.

What if someone isn't a citizen anywhere? Are they acting in an illegal manner just by being born?

Also, you don't have to be a citizen to be a permanent resident and contribute to your country. There's probably a heck of a lot of citizens who have done a lot less for "their" country than illegal immigrants or permanent residents.

[Northern Freikur]

I'm guessing that you support the 'sovereign citizen' movement

does that undermine his argument?

Not necessarily, but the 'sovereign citizens' are essentially people which give law enforcement officials and governments more troubles than they're worth. They claim to be a "Citizen of the World" and thus need not obey the law. And I despise those people...

The simple truth is, If you are on American Soil, you obey American Law. No matter what your nationality is...

[Northern Freikur]

I'm guessing that you support the 'sovereign citizen' movement

Do I seem like the kind of guy who associates with fundamentalist Christians, white supremacists, or right-wingers of any sort?

I give up on you...

[Ashkera]

Well in my personal philosophical and political beliefs, no. People should be treated like people. And people should have a right to vote, not the privilege to vote. If it is a right and not a privilege then having documentation should not matter.

If it does, then stop calling it a right.

The host state is not responsible for that. The home state is.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Not necessarily, but the 'sovereign citizens' are essentially people which give law enforcement officials and governments more troubles than they're worth. They claim to be a "Citizen of the World" and thus need not obey the law. And I despise those people...

I'm not a "Sovereign Citizen."

I am, however, an illegalist.

The simple truth is, If you are on American Soil, you obey American Law. No matter what your nationality is...

Nah. Don't feel like it. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

[Hugdom]

does that undermine his argument?

Not necessarily, but the 'sovereign citizens' are essentially people which give law enforcement officials and governments more troubles than they're worth. They claim to be a "Citizen of the World" and thus need not obey the law. And I despise those people...

The simple truth is, If you are on American Soil, you obey American Law. No matter what your nationality is...

Nationality has nothing to do with it, and if the answer is "not necessarily" then you shouldn't have brought it up.

[NERVUN]

And you are saying that only CITIZENS should vote... one can be a legal immigrant and NOT take citizenship. It doesn't happen automatically you know.

So, what am I not doing?

Well, what you are doing is talking about the subject for a different thread. I don't mind the idea of Japan changing their laws to allow people to become citizens, but that is not the thread topic.

Dude... it works the same in the United States. Immigrating means MOVING. Some people immigrate on a short term basis, some on long term, and a number permanently (Green card holders). Immigration does not mean you automatically become a US citizen (For your information, an immigrant has to spend at least 5 years in the US, pass a number of tests, be interviewed, swear an oath, and pay a whole heck of a lot of money before getting naturalized).

So, again, legality isn't the point, you said voting should be for citizens only because of the duties imposed by the state on citizens. What, exactly, are these duties that are imposed on citizens that are not on other immigrants?

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Do I seem like the kind of guy who associates with fundamentalist Christians, white supremacists, or right-wingers of any sort?

I give up on you...

...what?

[Hugdom]

Well in my personal philosophical and political beliefs, no. People should be treated like people. And people should have a right to vote, not the privilege to vote. If it is a right and not a privilege then having documentation should not matter.

If it does, then stop calling it a right.

The host state is not responsible for that. The home state is.

All states are, especially the US. The US believes that rights are god given, not state given. Therefore that argument is moot.

[Ashkera]

Gee, I don't know, the entire state naturalization process and all that goes with it? The records for law enforcement? All that sort of stuff?

The person isn't illegal, their actions are.

Yes, but why are those laws put into place and why should it matter to begin with? Is someone just not allotted rights because they don't have personal records? If so, stop calling it a right. It's a privilege.

What if someone isn't a citizen anywhere? Are they acting in an illegal manner just by being born?

Well, it just so happens I'm not a rights theorist. I only use "rights" as a shorthand. So sure, call it that if you like.

Then they are Stateless, and international law prohibits turning them away, or making them so, IIRC.