The Christian Discussion Thread VI

[Conscentia]

Other people who post here - especially the Christian ones, I recently watched the following:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aC4N0ST_Og
And it seems to raise a valid question... Why convert in life? Why does God's famous will to forgive seemingly only extend to the living? If an afterlife exists, why is it apparently not possible to find faith and repent after death? I'm interested in seeing a response to this.

---

Sort-of.

As I understand it, the Orthodox view is that God is omnipresent, so Hell cannot be a separation from God. Heaven and Hell are different interpretations of a single afterlife. 'Hell-fire' is how those in Hell interpret God's divine light.

Huh.

I like that a lot better than "you're gonna burn for eternity."

Well... it sort of still is "you're gonna burn for eternity". The hell-fire is still there, it's just not literal fire.

It does seem to have two obvious advantages over other Christian afterlife concepts:
- Hell does not involve separation from God and therefore does not conflict with God's alleged omnipresence.
- Hell becomes compatible with God's alleged benevolence as God does not impose Hell onto those who end up there.

It does create some ambiguity with regards to implicit atheists and theological noncognitivists though.

[Wdkckms]

Oi you better come back to us, it gets boring without you. Besides how else are we going to take over Constantinople for the glorious Byzantine empire without you? The Orthodox Conspiracy needs it's Leninist general!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcze7EGorOk

[The Archregimancy]

Other people who post here - especially the Christian ones, I recently watched the following:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aC4N0ST_Og
And it seems to raise a valid question... Why convert in life? Why does God's famous will to forgive seemingly only extend to the living? If an afterlife exists, why is it apparently not possible to find faith and repent after death?

On the contrary, it's entirely possible; it's inherent, albeit often from wildly different perspectives, in the underlying assumptions of several Christian denominations.

Now you presumably want me to elaborate....

[Conscentia]

Other people who post here - especially the Christian ones, I recently watched the following:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aC4N0ST_Og
And it seems to raise a valid question... Why convert in life? Why does God's famous will to forgive seemingly only extend to the living? If an afterlife exists, why is it apparently not possible to find faith and repent after death?

On the contrary, it's entirely possible; it's inherent, albeit often from wildly different perspectives, in the underlying assumptions of several Christian denominations.

Now you presumably want me to elaborate....

I would appreciate it if you elaborated.

If you thought I'd want you to elaborate, why didn't you just elaborate to begin with?

[The Archregimancy]

On the contrary, it's entirely possible; it's inherent, albeit often from wildly different perspectives, in the underlying assumptions of several Christian denominations.

Now you presumably want me to elaborate....

I would appreciate if you elaborated.

If we assume a modified - not full Origenist - Orthodox position on apocatastasis (or universal salvation), then it stands to reason that God's 'will to forgive' extends to the dead. How could it be otherwise?

Catholics are better able to speak to the doctrine of Purgatory than I am, but as I understand it, it's wholly possible for non-Christians (under specific circumstances) to enter Purgatory, with the presumed expectation that the latter would eventually enter God's presence.

So that's a fairly large chunk of Christianity that believes that it's possible to change the status of the deceased, even if they weren't Christian at their death.


Outside of the traditional mainstream of Christian theology, Mormons baptise the dead (one of several non-continuous links between Mormonism and various early gnostic practices, for what it's worth), and apparently - according to Mormon theology - it's then up to the deceased to then accept that baptism.

If you thought I'd want you to elaborate, why didn't you just elaborate to begin with?

It rather depended on the extent to which your original question was rhetorical or not; I didn't want to assume either way.

[Conscentia]

I would appreciate if you elaborated.

If we assume a modified - not full Origenist - Orthodox position on apocatastasis (or universal salvation), then it stands to reason that God's 'will to forgive' extends to the dead. How could it be otherwise?

Catholics are better able to speak to the doctrine of Purgatory than I am, but as I understand it, it's wholly possible for non-Christians (under specific circumstances) to enter Purgatory, with the presumed expectation that the latter would eventually enter God's presence.

So that's a fairly large chunk of Christianity that believes that it's possible to change the status of the deceased, even if they weren't Christian at their death.


Outside of the traditional mainstream of Christian theology, Mormons baptise the dead (one of several non-continuous links between Mormonism and various early gnostic practices, for what it's worth), and apparently - according to Mormon theology - it's then up to the deceased to then accept that baptism.

I thought you told me earlier that the Orthodox Church rejects apocatastasis. Isn't it considered anathema?

Not everyone goes through purgatory. Roman Catholicism has 'mortal sins' which God apparently can't ever forgive (unless one repents while still alive).

If you thought I'd want you to elaborate, why didn't you just elaborate to begin with?

It rather depended on the extent to which your original question was rhetorical or not; I didn't want to assume either way.

It wasn't rhetorical.

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

Mortal sins are not unforgivable. The only unforgivable sin is a Sin Against the Holy Spirit, which is literally the sin of rejecting God's forgiveness.

[Gim]

Mortal sins are not unforgivable. The only unforgivable sin is a Sin Against the Holy Spirit, which is literally the sin of rejecting God's forgiveness.

When you're doing it willfully, of course, after knowing who God is.
When you are doing it ignorantly without feeling the presence of God in your heart, that is a different story.

[Conscentia]

Mortal sins are not unforgivable. The only unforgivable sin is a Sin Against the Holy Spirit, which is literally the sin of rejecting God's forgiveness.

So souls in Hell can repent? Not what I've heard.

[Schiltzberg]

Mortal sins are not unforgivable. The only unforgivable sin is a Sin Against the Holy Spirit, which is literally the sin of rejecting God's forgiveness.

So souls in Hell can repent? Not what I've heard.

No, but if you confess it before you go to hell is I think what he means.

[Schiltzberg]

Do you want to know what would be interesting? If somebody made a list of every single person that is mentioned in the Bible. There must be thousands upon thousands of people mentioned in the Bible.

[Conscentia]

So souls in Hell can repent? Not what I've heard.

No, but if you confess it before you go to hell is I think what he means.

My questions concern the already dead, not the dying.

[Conscentia]

Do you want to know what would be interesting? If somebody made a list of every single person that is mentioned in the Bible. There must be thousands upon thousands of people mentioned in the Bible.

After a quick search, I found this link that seemingly has all the men named in the Bible...
https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/ ... er-All-Men

And this site, which apparently covers everyone in the Bible:
http://www.complete-bible-genealogy.com/name_index.htm

... Haven't looked much into them though.

[The Archregimancy]

If we assume a modified - not full Origenist - Orthodox position on apocatastasis (or universal salvation), then it stands to reason that God's 'will to forgive' extends to the dead. How could it be otherwise?

Catholics are better able to speak to the doctrine of Purgatory than I am, but as I understand it, it's wholly possible for non-Christians (under specific circumstances) to enter Purgatory, with the presumed expectation that the latter would eventually enter God's presence.

So that's a fairly large chunk of Christianity that believes that it's possible to change the status of the deceased, even if they weren't Christian at their death.


Outside of the traditional mainstream of Christian theology, Mormons baptise the dead (one of several non-continuous links between Mormonism and various early gnostic practices, for what it's worth), and apparently - according to Mormon theology - it's then up to the deceased to then accept that baptism.

I thought you told me earlier that the Orthodox Church rejects apocatastasis. Isn't it considered anathema?

You must have me confused with someone else; I've consistently been a fairly strong advocate of qualified apocatastasis, along with a significant portion of the Orthodox Church. Just two pages ago in this very thread, I was writing:

Otherwise, Conscentia's summary is as accurate as any two-sentence summary is ever likely to be. A loving God doesn't deny His presence to anyone; it's just that some people interpret His presence negatively out of their own choice rather than an intent to punish. And even there, those of us who embrace a qualified version of apocatastasis would argue that it's possible to hope that no one would find themselves in the latter category.

Origen - the original supporter of unqualified apocatastasis (the argument that everyone must necessarily be saved) - was individually anathematized at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, but qualified apocatastasis (the argument that we may hope that everyone will be saved) has a very strong tradition within Orthodox theology, from the Cappadocian Fathers through Maximus Confessor through the present day Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.

[Schiltzberg]

Do you want to know what would be interesting? If somebody made a list of every single person that is mentioned in the Bible. There must be thousands upon thousands of people mentioned in the Bible.

After a quick search, I found this link that seemingly has all the men named in the Bible...
https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/ ... er-All-Men

And this site, which apparently covers everyone in the Bible:
http://www.complete-bible-genealogy.com/name_index.htm

... Haven't looked much into them though.

Wow, that is a lot of people. LOL.

No, but if you confess it before you go to hell is I think what he means.

My questions concern the already dead, not the dying.

If you are in hell, you cannot repent, and if you are in Heaven, there is no need to repent, because you are already purged of your sins. In purgatory, you can still make it to Heaven if you are sorry for your sins and receive a lot of prayers, so I guess you could say yes for people in purgatory, but definitely a no for people in hell.

[Conscentia]

I thought you told me earlier that the Orthodox Church rejects apocatastasis. Isn't it considered anathema?

You must have me confused with someone else; I've consistently been a fairly strong advocate of qualified apocatastasis, along with a significant portion of the Orthodox Church. Just two pages ago in this very thread, I was writing:

Otherwise, Conscentia's summary is as accurate as any two-sentence summary is ever likely to be. A loving God doesn't deny His presence to anyone; it's just that some people interpret His presence negatively out of their own choice rather than an intent to punish. And even there, those of us who embrace a qualified version of apocatastasis would argue that it's possible to hope that no one would find themselves in the latter category.

Origen - the original supporter of unqualified apocatastasis (the argument that everyone must necessarily be saved) - was individually anathematized at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, but qualified apocatastasis (the argument that we may hope that everyone will be saved) has a very strong tradition within Orthodox theology, from the Cappadocian Fathers through Maximus Confessor through the present day Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.

Could you elaborate on "qualified apocatastasis". Does this mean that you believe that the dead can be forgiven if they meet certain conditions? What conditions?

[Conscentia]

My questions concern the already dead, not the dying.

If you are in hell, you cannot repent, and if you are in Heaven, there is no need to repent, because you are already purged of your sins. In purgatory, you can still make it to Heaven if you are sorry for your sins and receive a lot of prayers, so I guess you could say yes for people in purgatory, but definitely a no for people in hell.

Yes, but why? Why does God's forgiveness apparently only extend to the living when it comes to mortal sins?

[Schiltzberg]

You must have me confused with someone else; I've consistently been a fairly strong advocate of qualified apocatastasis, along with a significant portion of the Orthodox Church. Just two pages ago in this very thread, I was writing:


Origen - the original supporter of unqualified apocatastasis (the argument that everyone must necessarily be saved) - was individually anathematized at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, but qualified apocatastasis (the argument that we may hope that everyone will be saved) has a very strong tradition within Orthodox theology, from the Cappadocian Fathers through Maximus Confessor through the present day Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.

Could you elaborate "qualified apocatastasis". Does this mean that you believe that the dead can be forgiven if they meet certain conditions? What conditions?

I think that what he means is that we can never say for certain that someone went to hell, because we must always have hope that they made it to Heaven. Like, you know, there is no guarantee that people like Hitler and Stalin are in hell, even though they were very horrible people. I am sure he will elaborate on it more than I can.

[The Archregimancy]

You must have me confused with someone else; I've consistently been a fairly strong advocate of qualified apocatastasis, along with a significant portion of the Orthodox Church. Just two pages ago in this very thread, I was writing:


Origen - the original supporter of unqualified apocatastasis (the argument that everyone must necessarily be saved) - was individually anathematized at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, but qualified apocatastasis (the argument that we may hope that everyone will be saved) has a very strong tradition within Orthodox theology, from the Cappadocian Fathers through Maximus Confessor through the present day Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.

Could you elaborate "qualified apocatastasis". Does this mean that you believe that the dead can be forgiven if they meet certain conditions? What conditions?

It means precisely what I wrote in that post.

Unqualified apocatastasis is the argument that everyone must necessarily be saved (as espoused by Origen).

Qualified apocatastasis is the argument that we may hope that everyone will be saved, but can't assume that this will necessarily be the case (as espoused by most people making the argument since Origen).

There are no conditions in the latter argument; it's the difference between hope and expectation, that's all.

[Conscentia]

Could you elaborate "qualified apocatastasis". Does this mean that you believe that the dead can be forgiven if they meet certain conditions? What conditions?

It means precisely what I wrote in that post.
Unqualified apocatastasis is the argument that everyone must necessarily be saved (as espoused by Origen).
Qualified apocatastasis is the argument that we may hope that everyone will be saved, but can't assume that this will necessarily be the case (as espoused by most people making the argument since Origen).
There are no conditions in the latter argument; it's the difference between hope and expectation, that's all.

Does this mean that you hope that those in Hell will be forgiven, and therefore acknowledge that it's possible for those in Hell to be forgiven?

[Czechanada]

Other people who post here - especially the Christian ones, I recently watched the following:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aC4N0ST_Og
And it seems to raise a valid question... Why convert in life? Why does God's famous will to forgive seemingly only extend to the living? If an afterlife exists, why is it apparently not possible to find faith and repent after death? I'm interested in seeing a response to this.

---

Huh.

I like that a lot better than "you're gonna burn for eternity."

Well... it sort of still is "you're gonna burn for eternity". The hell-fire is still there, it's just not literal fire.

It does seem to have two obvious advantages over other Christian afterlife concepts:
- Hell does not involve separation from God and therefore does not conflict with God's alleged omnipresence.
- Hell becomes compatible with God's alleged benevolence as God does not impose Hell onto those who end up there.

It does create some ambiguity with regards to implicit atheists and theological noncognitivists though.

So we atheists are doomed to wait in an extraplanar lobby for all eternity while God and St. Peter pore over books on Orthodox theology at the welcome desk?

[Schiltzberg]

If you are in hell, you cannot repent, and if you are in Heaven, there is no need to repent, because you are already purged of your sins. In purgatory, you can still make it to Heaven if you are sorry for your sins and receive a lot of prayers, so I guess you could say yes for people in purgatory, but definitely a no for people in hell.

Yes, but why? Why does God's forgiveness apparently only extend to the living when it comes to mortal sins?

God gives us the opportunity to repent in our physical lives, but after that, it is too late. Jesus gave us this parable about it:

Matthew 25:1-13

1“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like this. Ten bridesmaids took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 When the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them; 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, all of them became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Look! Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those bridesmaids got up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise replied, ‘No! there will not be enough for you and for us; you had better go to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy it, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went with him into the wedding banquet; and the door was shut. 11 Later the other bridesmaids came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I do not know you.’ 13 Keep awake therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour."

He is saying that we need to be ready for our deaths, or the coming of the King (whichever is first), but if we "forget to fill our lamps," then it will be too late, and we will have no way of making it to the Kingdom of God.

[Conscentia]

So we atheists are doomed to wait in an extraplanar lobby for all eternity while God and St. Peter pore over books on Orthodox theology at the welcome desk?

Better deal than the Catholics are offering us.

[Schiltzberg]

It means precisely what I wrote in that post.
Unqualified apocatastasis is the argument that everyone must necessarily be saved (as espoused by Origen).
Qualified apocatastasis is the argument that we may hope that everyone will be saved, but can't assume that this will necessarily be the case (as espoused by most people making the argument since Origen).
There are no conditions in the latter argument; it's the difference between hope and expectation, that's all.

Does this mean that you hope that those in Hell will be forgiven, and therefore acknowledge that it's possible for those in Hell to be forgiven?

It is a hope that they never make it to hell in the first place.

[Conscentia]

Yes, but why? Why does God's forgiveness apparently only extend to the living when it comes to mortal sins?

God gives us the opportunity to repent in our physical lives, but after that, it is too late. Jesus gave us this parable about it:

Matthew 25:1-13[...]

He is saying that we need to be ready for our deaths, or the coming of the King (whichever is first), but if we "forget to fill our lamps," then it will be too late, and we will have no way of making it to the Kingdom of God.

All you've done is re-iterate. You haven't actually answer the question.