The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Galloism]

Broken clocks, etc.

It's mostly funfems and tradcon women who oppose drafting women, you know?

Proof?

[Chessmistress]

It's mostly funfems and tradcon women who oppose drafting women, you know?

Proof?

Just try to google opposition to draft from feminists: you'll find very few, always "liberal feminists" and the likes (funfems).
And if you are unsure if these persons are liberal feminists or not, just check their positions about prostitution and pornography...if they use words like "sex work" and/or they're pro-porn, they are funfems...opposing the draft...

[Galloism]

Proof?

Just try to google opposition to draft from feminists: you'll find very few, always "liberal feminists" and the likes (funfems).
And if you are unsure if these persons are liberal feminists or not, just check their positions about prostitution and pornography...if they use words like "sex work" and/or they're pro-porn, they are funfems...opposing the draft...

So no proof.

[Tahar Joblis]

Point of historical order: When NOW endorsed extending the draft to women, such as in filing an amicus brief for this case, it was 1980. The Selective Service System had just been reinstated, though there was no major war underway.

Karen DeCrow was president of NOW 1974-1977. She subsequently broke from the movement, saying that the radicals had taken over.

Warren Farrell still was associated with the feminist movement at that point.

Craig v. Boren happened in 1976, with feminist support.

The "feminist sex wars" were underway. This was before the sex-negative radical feminists won.

In 1980, liberal feminists had a lot more power within the US feminist movement than they do today, relative to radical feminists. Since that is one of very few episodes where feminists actually took action towards requiring women to be treated equally to men with respect to obligations of military service, it presents a strong circumstantial argument the other way.

[Swith Witherward]

Here's a topic to perhaps get us moving: A college president in Oklahoma is defiantly standing by his controversial view that today's students are too sensitive and too quick to play the victim card. The college is Oklahoma Wesleyan University, a Christian liberal arts college, but I'd rather focus on the meat of his message rather than the topic of Christianity or race itself, please.

Vid or an article or the blog.

President Piper has a point. In the wake of Ostro's whinging about "radfems" holding so much sway on campuses (a point I don't disagree with), and the upheaval caused by "triggering" such as "feminist conference says clapping triggers anxiety", perhaps it's time we reassess some of the bullshit happening at universities, especially where the varied feminist movements are concerned?

I'm not some grizzled old she-bear. I'm a grad student, so my perspective on college is still fresh. I'm STEM-heavy, which means I often find myself involved in discussions nasty arguments with radical feminist students, TAs and profs that push for affirmative action rather than allowing us to stand on our own merits and compete directly with our male peers as equals.

In other words, in our quest for equality, and in the eyes of so many, we [collective campus movements lead by crappy leadership] have turned ourselves into wilting victims that should never be exposed to such horrors as clapping, literature that touches upon rape, male students opening doors for us, or male profs that insist our grades reflect our dedication to our studies. We want our sexual equality in the sack, but it seems to me that we simultaneously seek to cripple our male partners by insisting they ask "do you still agree to do this" before each thrust. (<-- I'm being facetious here. I know it's not quite that bad.)

I have tangled with a misogynist prof that seemed incapable of making comments that weren't laced with passive-aggressive quips about women in STEM. Feminist groups should have a place on campus for this reason - advocacy is never out of style. By and large, however, the majority of my profs and TAs have been reasonable human beings instead of "faceless patriarchy oppressing me".

Meh. I'm curious to know if anyone else agrees. Has political correctness, especially where feminism is concerned, run amok on campuses? I'm sure many here will disagree with me.

[Highfort]

I just want to point out that we do have a thread in General about political correctness "run amok". But yes, I feel that at times campuses seem to emphasize not offending others as opposed to engaging opposing sides in productive dialog.

I understand the need for safe spaces in the case of victims of sexual crimes or discrimination, but I don't think groups inherently need safe spaces just because. The LGBT Center on my campus doesn't exist because of LGBT individuals but because of the oppression and discrimination against them. Its resources are related to countering this oppression and protecting one's self.

The Women's Center exists as a safe space for female sexual assault victims but, curiously, there is no equivalent male victim safe space. Additionally the Women's Center peddles the same false statistics concerning the wage gap (seventy cents to the dollar) and seems far more politically oriented than the LGBT center. It seems to exist because of women as a gender and not just because of discrimination against women, and I don't think women as a gender need a safe space "just because".

Having safe spaces "just because" is what, in my opinion, leads to inventing bogeyman like clapping being triggering or not allowing a nonfeminist speaker to talk about rape.

[Chessmistress]

Here's a topic to perhaps get us moving: A college president in Oklahoma is defiantly standing by his controversial view that today's students are too sensitive and too quick to play the victim card. The college is Oklahoma Wesleyan University, a Christian liberal arts college, but I'd rather focus on the meat of his message rather than the topic of Christianity or race itself, please.

Vid or an article or the blog.

President Piper has a point. In the wake of Ostro's whinging about "radfems" holding so much sway on campuses (a point I don't disagree with), and the upheaval caused by "triggering" such as "feminist conference says clapping triggers anxiety", perhaps it's time we reassess some of the bullshit happening at universities, especially where the varied feminist movements are concerned?

I don't think Piper has a point. There's around a lot of hate speech that some people try to pass as "free speech" and "ideas".
About "clapping triggers anxiety": it's clearly an exaggeration, purposely inflated by a conservative newspaper in order to mock Feminism.

I'm not some grizzled old she-bear. I'm a grad student, so my perspective on college is still fresh. I'm STEM-heavy, which means I often find myself involved in discussions nasty arguments with radical feminist students, TAs and profs that push for affirmative action rather than allowing us to stand on our own merits and compete directly with our male peers as equals.

How we are supposed to defeat historical discrimination that still is keeping away from STEM a lot of girls?
In Sweden there are better ideas about how pushing more girls in STEM, at least in IT:
http://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/kan-f ... -avskrivna
A total debt cancellation for students of the underrepresented gender in IT, aka girls.

[Kelinfort]

Here is an interesting article that, I'm quite sure, most here will disagree with it, and indeed many feminists will have a few issues with it....

It is titled: Why I no longer hate terfs- and questions the erasure of women.

http://www.feministcurrent.com/2015/11/ ... ate-terfs/

I think it raises some interesting points of contention between radical feminists and trans activists.

Thank you for the link.
I really hope that article like this will help people to better understand my position towards transexualism.

Nope, TERFs are still hateful assholes that can't be called feminists for the same reason that a woman who only champions the rights of white women cannot be called a feminist.

A little exaggerated position, why?
Personal interest, much?

"Black women aren't really women because their skin is all dark and shit."
"Racist's are assholes!"
"Hey, calm down, black lady! You're just caring about yourself."

Seriously though, why can't men and transgender people be feminists? Even if we assume your idea that feminism is only for women, whites supported (and still support) the Civil Rights movement in the United States. Calling someone an "ally" lacks any meaning nor gives any distinction.

Also, did it ever occur to you that you're fighting for your own, albeit somewhat odd, self interest? Like seriously, it makes no sense for you to condemn someone else for what you're doing right now.

[Ugatoo]

Talking to some of the anti-feminism people on here has almost made me rethink my position on being anti. I sincerely apologize for them Not all feminists are radical and not all people who think modern feminism is a waste of time are neckbeards.

[Chessmistress]

Seriously though, why can't men and transgender people be feminists? Even if we assume your idea that feminism is only for women, whites supported (and still support) the Civil Rights movement in the United States. Calling someone an "ally" lacks any meaning nor gives any distinction.

I thought whites who supported the civil rights movement didn't called themselves "black people" but, EXACTLY, "allies" of black people. I'm wrong?
And I'm NOT confusing "men" and "transpeople": transpeople are people oppressed by the patriarchy, men, as class, always have been the historical oppressors.
I said a lot of times that transpeople can be much better allies than males because their experience, even if still very different, is closer to our experience.
Male "feminists" it's...another thing...totally.
About them, I have more or less the same opinion of Kate Iselin
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... e-feminist

It’s not that I don’t think men can be feminists. There are several men in my life who have approached feminism with respect and considerate thought, who have used feminism to examine their own privilege and experiences within the world and have become better people for it.

But these men are in a disappointing minority compared to the rest of the male feminists I, and many other women, have encountered: men who use the term “feminist” as either bait or an alter-ego, assuming that their opt-in respect for women will entitle them to legions of adoring lovers – really the most anti-feminist act of all.

Meh, to be fair there haven't been "several" men in my life who have approached feminism with respect and considerate thought and who have used Feminism to examine their own privilege, but I still agree with almost all she wrote.

[Kelinfort]

Seriously though, why can't men and transgender people be feminists? Even if we assume your idea that feminism is only for women, whites supported (and still support) the Civil Rights movement in the United States. Calling someone an "ally" lacks any meaning nor gives any distinction.

I thought whites who supported the civil rights movement didn't called themselves "black people" but, EXACTLY, "allies" of black people. I'm wrong?
And I'm NOT confusing "men" and "transpeople": transpeople are people oppressed by the patriarchy, men, as class, always have been the historical oppressors.
I said a lot of times that transpeople can be much better allies than males because their experience, even if still very different, is closer to our experience.
Male "feminists" it's...another thing...totally.
About them, I have more or less the same opinion of Kate Iselin
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... e-feminist

It’s not that I don’t think men can be feminists. There are several men in my life who have approached feminism with respect and considerate thought, who have used feminism to examine their own privilege and experiences within the world and have become better people for it.

But these men are in a disappointing minority compared to the rest of the male feminists I, and many other women, have encountered: men who use the term “feminist” as either bait or an alter-ego, assuming that their opt-in respect for women will entitle them to legions of adoring lovers – really the most anti-feminist act of all.

Meh, to be fair there haven't been "several" men in my life who have approached feminism with respect and considerate thought and who have used Feminism to examine their own privilege, but I still agree with almost all she wrote.

I thought whites who supported the civil rights movement didn't called themselves "black people" but, EXACTLY, "allies" of black people. I'm wrong?

They were supporters of the movement. The term "ally" wasn't used back then.

I said a lot of times that transpeople can be much better allies than males because their experience, even if still very different, is closer to our experience.

Why allies and not feminists then? Not womanly enough for you?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/19/why-i-wont-date-another-male-feminist

Then, I'm inclined to agree. I'm no longer a feminist. Nor am I an "ally", then. I'm done supporting this charade.

[Ugatoo]

I said a lot of times that transpeople can be much better allies than males because their experience, even if still very different, is closer to our experience.

Why allies and not feminists then? Not womanly enough for you?

I'm pretty sure Transmen would be pretty offended at hearing you say this.

[Kelinfort]

Why allies and not feminists then? Not womanly enough for you?

I'm pretty sure Transmen would be pretty offended at hearing you say this.

It's mocking her logic. You do realise I'm not serious, right?

[Ugatoo]

I'm pretty sure Transmen would be pretty offended at hearing you say this.

It's mocking her logic. You do realise I'm not serious, right?

Sounded pretty bigoted to me.

[Kelinfort]

It's mocking her logic. You do realise I'm not serious, right?

Sounded pretty bigoted to me.

CM is a TERF, and as a result, she believes feminism should exclude transpeople from being feminists and instead, suggest they be relegated to "allies". She also doesn't believe transwomen are "real" women. Read some of her posts. Oh, and transmen cannot be feminists, because, by her logic, men cannot be feminists, either.

If I sounded offensive, I apologize. That's not what I meant in the slightest.

[Chessmistress]

Sounded pretty bigoted to me.

CM is a TERF, and as a result, she believes feminism should exclude transpeople from being feminists and instead, suggest they be relegated to "allies". She also doesn't believe transwomen are "real" women. Read some of her posts. Oh, and transmen cannot be feminists, because, by her logic, men cannot be feminists, either.

If I sounded offensive, I apologize. That's not what I meant in the slightest.

You're still wrong.
You think my thoughts are based on biology, that's why you always put out men and transpeople.
Forgetting I'm very moderately TERF but extremely SWERF: the overwhelmingly majority of prostitutes are women-born-women, and I don't think they should dare to call themselves "feminists" because they actively support the worst patriarchal relic in western world: prostitution.

[Ugatoo]

CM is a TERF, and as a result, she believes feminism should exclude transpeople from being feminists and instead, suggest they be relegated to "allies". She also doesn't believe transwomen are "real" women. Read some of her posts. Oh, and transmen cannot be feminists, because, by her logic, men cannot be feminists, either.

If I sounded offensive, I apologize. That's not what I meant in the slightest.

You're still wrong.
You think my thoughts are based on biology, that's why you always put out men and transpeople.
Forgetting I'm very moderately TERF but extremely SWERF: the overwhelmingly majority of prostitutes are women-born-women, and I don't think they should dare to call themselves "feminists" because they actively support the worst patriarchal relic in western world: prostitution.

You know for such a powerful and "real" group as the patriarchy is they're doing a lousy job of silencing you.

I'll have to bring this up at our next strip club meeting.

[Kelinfort]

CM is a TERF, and as a result, she believes feminism should exclude transpeople from being feminists and instead, suggest they be relegated to "allies". She also doesn't believe transwomen are "real" women. Read some of her posts. Oh, and transmen cannot be feminists, because, by her logic, men cannot be feminists, either.

If I sounded offensive, I apologize. That's not what I meant in the slightest.

You're still wrong.
You think my thoughts are based on biology, that's why you always put out men and transpeople.
Forgetting I'm very moderately TERF but extremely SWERF: the overwhelmingly majority of prostitutes are women-born-women, and I don't think they should dare to call themselves "feminists" because they actively support the worst patriarchal relic in western world: prostitution.

Of their own volition.

But free will must be alien to authoritarians like yourself.

very moderately TERF

Hmm, yes, now WHY?! Why are you a TERF?!

[Chessmistress]

You're still wrong.
You think my thoughts are based on biology, that's why you always put out men and transpeople.
Forgetting I'm very moderately TERF but extremely SWERF: the overwhelmingly majority of prostitutes are women-born-women, and I don't think they should dare to call themselves "feminists" because they actively support the worst patriarchal relic in western world: prostitution.

Of their own volition.

But free will must be alien to authoritarians like yourself.

very moderately TERF

Hmm, yes, now WHY?! Why are you a TERF?!

Because I don't think transpeople can live through the same experiences, the some kind of oppression women have, the oppression performed by the patriarchy on transpeople is very different, and I even think in some ways can be even worse, sometimes, but, still, different.
The "will" of prostitutes is in the overwhelmingly majority of cases just an excuse used by men to get their way.
Do you wish some links to Feminist sites explaining far better than me what really prostitution is?

[Ugatoo]

Because I don't think transpeople can live through the same experiences, the some kind of oppression women have, the oppression performed by the patriarchy on transpeople is very different, and I even think in some ways can be even worse, sometimes, but, still, different.
The "will" of prostitutes is in the overwhelmingly majority of cases just an excuse used by men to get their wya

Oh I actually agree with you. Transpeople have it much much worse than women. For example TERFs are feminists who completely invalidate the identities of transwomen because of made up excuses about patriarchy.

You will never suffer nearly as much as a transperson has ever suffered.

[Kelinfort]

Of their own volition.

But free will must be alien to authoritarians like yourself.



Hmm, yes, now WHY?! Why are you a TERF?!

Because I don't think transpeople can live through the same experiences, the some kind of oppression women have, the oppression performed by the patriarchy on transpeople is very different, and I even think in some ways can be even worse, sometimes, but, still, different.
The "will" of prostitutes is in the overwhelmingly majority of cases just an excuse used by men to get their way.
Do you wish some links to Feminist sites explaining far better than me what really prostitution is?

Yeah, Transpeople have it far worse than you, actually.

The "will" of prostitutes is in the overwhelmingly majority of cases just an excuse used by men to get their way.

The "will" of the people is just an excuse for a leader to get their way.

[Ostroeuropa]

Then, I'm inclined to agree. I'm no longer a feminist. Nor am I an "ally", then. I'm done supporting this charade.

Welcome to the cause!

[Wallenburg]

I don't think they should dare to call themselves "feminists"

I don't give a shit. I'll call myself what I want.

they actively support the worst patriarchal relic in western world: prostitution.

I don't actively support prostitution. I am male. I'd like my feminist badge back now.
Also, men can also be prostitutes. For women.

[Chessmistress]

The "will" of prostitutes is in the overwhelmingly majority of cases just an excuse used by men to get their way.

The "will" of the people is just an excuse for a leader to get their way.

A good comparison.
How many female dictatrixes there have been through history?
Who benefits from exploitation of women through prostitution?

[Ostroeuropa]

The "will" of the people is just an excuse for a leader to get their way.

A good comparison.
How many female dictatrixes there have been through history?
Who benefits from exploitation of women through prostitution?

Mostly women, who are the majority of sex traffickers and such.