NationStates' Transgender Thread II

[Grenartia]

So I'm going to be working on getting a QSA set up at my high school, but having no experience with QSAs, I don't really know what to do with it once I do get it started. Like are there formal meetings, or just hanging out and talking, and if it is a formal meeting, what does that consist of?

So if any of you could share what your QSA/GSA does, that would be great!

What we do at my college, is we do support, advocacy, awareness, and a little activism. I'm not quite sure what, if any differences there are between my university and schools in your jurisdiction are, at least on the activism front, but I would be shocked if there were a high standard of things required of a QSA at your school. I was in Anime Club at my high school, and we did almost nothing even remotely close to being academically or even artistically productive. 90% of the time, we were joking about various animes, and talking about yaoi pairings (to be fair, Anime Club was the closest thing we could get to a G/QSA).

But yeah. Really, its up to you and your advisor/sponsor/whatever what you do.

[Nature-Spirits]

So I'm going to be working on getting a QSA set up at my high school, but having no experience with QSAs, I don't really know what to do with it once I do get it started. Like are there formal meetings, or just hanging out and talking, and if it is a formal meeting, what does that consist of?

So if any of you could share what your QSA/GSA does, that would be great!

I ran the QSA at my high school last year, and mostly we just had informal meetings. We did put on a few events (one for TDoR, another as a queer prom), and we did some activism within our school (e.g. we got a second gender-neutral bathroom, got the school to write up an official nondiscrimination policy, etc.). I did educational segments in a couple of meetings to stimulate discussion, and we invited guest speakers to come talk to us (one from Planned Parenthood, another from PFLAG). And mostly it was just a place to hang out, talk about stuff, and outnumber the cishets once a week.

[Grenartia]

So I'm going to be working on getting a QSA set up at my high school, but having no experience with QSAs, I don't really know what to do with it once I do get it started. Like are there formal meetings, or just hanging out and talking, and if it is a formal meeting, what does that consist of?

So if any of you could share what your QSA/GSA does, that would be great!

I ran the QSA at my high school last year, and mostly we just had informal meetings. We did put on a few events (one for TDoR, another as a queer prom), and we did some activism within our school (e.g. we got a second gender-neutral bathroom, got the school to write up an official nondiscrimination policy, etc.). I did educational segments in a couple of meetings to stimulate discussion, and we invited guest speakers to come talk to us (one from Planned Parenthood, another from PFLAG). And mostly it was just a place to hang out, talk about stuff, and outnumber the cishets once a week.

Mostly what we do at StandOUT. We've not really gotten much actual activism done (I really need to start pestering the other officers and advisor more about that), but otherwise, we're doing the same sorts of things.

[Fabulous Rainicorns]

We do a lot of activism and education. We've kind of gotten away from the support piece, but we're trying to start a parent support group and potentially a student one as well.

[Vassenor]

Well, just ordered my first pair of heels.

OK technically they're for a costume rather than actual normal wear, but whatever.

[Philjia]

Well, just ordered my first pair of heels.

OK technically they're for a costume rather than actual normal wear, but whatever.

If dressing up boosts your confidence, it can't be a bad thing. One day, you'll be confident to dress up as yourself.

[The Serbian Empire]

Well, just ordered my first pair of heels.

OK technically they're for a costume rather than actual normal wear, but whatever.

I should do so soon.

[Communist Guatemala]

Transgender people are supported by socialists such as Bernie Sanders. He views their liberation as important as the liberation of the working class. He thinks that both classes of people are oppressed by bourgeois reactionary tyrants such as Christians. I bet that Vladimir Lenin and Karl Marx would have supported transgender rights if it was a major concept back then.

[Grenartia]

Transgender people are supported by socialists such as Bernie Sanders. He views their liberation as important as the liberation of the working class. He thinks that both classes of people are oppressed by bourgeois reactionary tyrants such as Christians. I bet that Vladimir Lenin and Karl Marx would have supported transgender rights if it was a major concept back then.

A bit of a misrepresentation (I say this as a socialist, a Christian, a Sanders supporter, and a trans person), but not entirely inaccurate.

Marx and Lenin probably would have, if they were aware of the facts.

But I would like to remind the thread that any further focus on this topic should remain focused on politics directly related to trans issues. Otherwise, this thread is to be apolitical.

[Aphryss]

So! We have some good news, in the form of this nice deodorant ad. I was honestly floored when I saw it; it had simply never occurred to me that we might get to a point where companies are using a sympathetic portrayal of transgender issues to sell products!

In local news, I went shopping with my stepsister yesterday, and got a pair of skirts (including a very nice denim one that fits perfectly), a nice top, and (yet another) coat. All for $31! I love thrift stores. Then today I went online to buy some plain t-shirts, looked at the skirts and the prices on the skirts, and decided to learn to sew. Because while this is a very cute skirt, there's no way I'm paying $550 for it.

I'm also planning to look into makeup, since I really need something to hide the red welts left by electrolysis while they heal (next session on November 9th, which is the 8th in the USA, so I will be being lasered while the fate of the free world is decided).

All told, I'm feeling pretty chipper. Things are moving along!

[The Serbian Empire]

So! We have some good news, in the form of this nice deodorant ad. I was honestly floored when I saw it; it had simply never occurred to me that we might get to a point where companies are using a sympathetic portrayal of transgender issues to sell products!

In local news, I went shopping with my stepsister yesterday, and got a pair of skirts (including a very nice denim one that fits perfectly), a nice top, and (yet another) coat. All for $31! I love thrift stores. Then today I went online to buy some plain t-shirts, looked at the skirts and the prices on the skirts, and decided to learn to sew. Because while this is a very cute skirt, there's no way I'm paying $550 for it.

I'm also planning to look into makeup, since I really need something to hide the red welts left by electrolysis while they heal (next session on November 9th, which is the 8th in the USA, so I will be being lasered while the fate of the free world is decided).

All told, I'm feeling pretty chipper. Things are moving along!

So you're doing so while I have my 25th birthday. I'm getting up there.

[Vassenor]

So the BBC ran a children's program depicting trans issues in a positive light.

And predictably the conservative pundits are losing their minds.

[Aphryss]

I heard about the Daily Fail spinning it as "sex changes for six year olds, funded by your tax dollars!" or something similarly egregiously stupid and full of lies, yeah. But then they have never let truth get in the way of sensationalist fearmongering.

[Philjia]

So the BBC ran a children's program depicting trans issues in a positive light.

And predictably the conservative pundits are losing their minds.

"Inform, Educate, and Entertain" only applies to things the Daily Mail likes.

[The Alexanderians]

I heard about the Daily Fail spinning it as "sex changes for six year olds, funded by your tax dollars!" or something similarly egregiously stupid and full of lies, yeah. But then they have never let truth get in the way of sensationalist fearmongering.

I'm sorry you've inadvertently made me think of this.

[Blackwatch Federation]

This entire thread is a scourge.

With much disgust,
Lord Wolfram Markus Comedy

[Reploid Productions]

This entire thread is a scourge.

With much disgust,
Lord Wolfram Markus Comedy

Rulebreaking behavior like this is a scourge. One that my colleagues and I are tasked with dealing with.

*** WARNED for trolling. ***

Review the site rules, linked conveniently above, at your earliest convenience. If this is your idea of "debate" or "discussion," it will be a very short escalation to bans or worse.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[Nature-Spirits]

I heard about the Daily Fail spinning it as "sex changes for six year olds, funded by your tax dollars!" or something similarly egregiously stupid and full of lies, yeah. But then they have never let truth get in the way of sensationalist fearmongering.

I'm sorry you've inadvertently made me think of this.

Sounds like my kind of place.

[Fabulous Rainicorns]

Anyone know anything about gender neutral pronouns in French, Spanish, or German?

[Nature-Spirits]

Anyone know anything about gender neutral pronouns in French, Spanish, or German?

Gender-neutral pronouns in French are actually something I've done quite a lot of thinking and reading on, since I speak French and plan to live in a francophone place in the near future. (I can't really speak to the other two, but I have heard of people using neutral pronouns in them.)

So, in French, there's really no easy solution like there is in English, because grammatical gender is built into every noun and pronoun, can't be omitted from adjectives, and is included in the conjugation of some verb tenses. Truly gender-neutral language is impossible -- in European French, I believe the masculine-as-neutral is most common, and in Canadian French, one common way of avoiding that is to construct the sentence in such a way that you're basically building the masculine and feminine constructions on top of each other (e.g. "all-[masc] students-[masc] and all-[fem] students-[fem] are important-[masc] and important-[fem].") The former is acceptable in formal French grammar -- and in fact, when referring to a mixed-gender group, only the masculine plural pronoun is accepted -- but can be problematic. The latter is clunky and long-winded.

One solution, when talking about a non-binary person, is simply to mix up the masculine and feminine forms, ignoring the gender agreement mandated by formal grammar. Then there are the neo-pronouns: the two I'm familiar with are "iel" (pronounced sort of like "yell", and a combination of "il" and "elle", the masculine and feminine pronouns respectively) and "ille" (pronounced identically to "il", which means it doesn't really work in its spoken form). Even so, the problem of gender agreement is ever-present, and there's really no simple solution.

[Aelex]

Gender-neutral pronouns in French are actually something I've done quite a lot of thinking and reading on, since I speak French and plan to live in a francophone place in the near future. (I can't really speak to the other two, but I have heard of people using neutral pronouns in them.)

So, in French, there's really no easy solution like there is in English, because grammatical gender is built into every noun and pronoun, can't be omitted from adjectives, and is included in the conjugation of some verb tenses. Truly gender-neutral language is impossible -- in European French, I believe the masculine-as-neutral is most common, and in Canadian French, one common way of avoiding that is to construct the sentence in such a way that you're basically building the masculine and feminine constructions on top of each other (e.g. "all-[masc] students-[masc] and all-[fem] students-[fem] are important-[masc] and important-[fem].") The former is acceptable in formal French grammar -- and in fact, when referring to a mixed-gender group, only the masculine plural pronoun is accepted -- but can be problematic. The latter is clunky and long-winded.

You're true about both instances "Le Masculin pour l'inconnu" ([the use of] Male as a neutral), that's to say when talking about an unknow person or object you use the male pronoun, and "Le Masculin l'emporte sur le Féminin" ([the use of] Male "win" over [the use of] Female) are both not only considered as being acceptable but as being rule by l'Académie Française (which basically regulate the "correctness" of the French language).

One solution, when talking about a non-binary person, is simply to mix up the masculine and feminine forms, ignoring the gender agreement mandated by formal grammar. Then there are the neo-pronouns: the two I'm familiar with are "iel" (pronounced sort of like "yell", and a combination of "il" and "elle", the masculine and feminine pronouns respectively) and "ille" (pronounced identically to "il", which means it doesn't really work in its spoken form). Even so, the problem of gender agreement is ever-present, and there's really no simple solution.

As for both of those neo-pronouns, it's the first time I've ever heard of them but I doubt they will get any acceptance neither by the mainstream nor the Academia. Moreover, they strike me as trying to import foreign cultural concepts into a language that can't accept them to begin with as, as you pointed out very justly, our entire language is "sexued" from the objects to the conjugation of the verbs.

[Vassenor]

See, this is why grammatical gender is a problematic concept in linguistics.

[Aelex]

See, this is why grammatical gender is a problematic concept in linguistics.

Hardly. It's just one that is absent from your own culture and you thus have problem fathoming.
I'm not blaming you for that tho, the concept of a "neutral" pronoun is very strange to me as a Romance language speaker and I find myself using she or he when I should have been using it or they quite often despite speaking a rather decent English in general.

[Nature-Spirits]

Gender-neutral pronouns in French are actually something I've done quite a lot of thinking and reading on, since I speak French and plan to live in a francophone place in the near future. (I can't really speak to the other two, but I have heard of people using neutral pronouns in them.)

So, in French, there's really no easy solution like there is in English, because grammatical gender is built into every noun and pronoun, can't be omitted from adjectives, and is included in the conjugation of some verb tenses. Truly gender-neutral language is impossible -- in European French, I believe the masculine-as-neutral is most common, and in Canadian French, one common way of avoiding that is to construct the sentence in such a way that you're basically building the masculine and feminine constructions on top of each other (e.g. "all-[masc] students-[masc] and all-[fem] students-[fem] are important-[masc] and important-[fem].") The former is acceptable in formal French grammar -- and in fact, when referring to a mixed-gender group, only the masculine plural pronoun is accepted -- but can be problematic. The latter is clunky and long-winded.

You're true about both instances "Le Masculin pour l'inconnu" ([the use of] Male as a neutral), that's to say when talking about an unknow person or object you use the male pronoun, and "Le Masculin l'emporte sur le Féminin" ([the use of] Male "win" over [the use of] Female) are both not only considered as being acceptable but as being rule by l'Académie Française (which basically regulate the "correctness" of the French language).

Well to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of l'Académie française anyway, since they're really nothing more than a bunch of glorified prescriptivists, but yeah.

One solution, when talking about a non-binary person, is simply to mix up the masculine and feminine forms, ignoring the gender agreement mandated by formal grammar. Then there are the neo-pronouns: the two I'm familiar with are "iel" (pronounced sort of like "yell", and a combination of "il" and "elle", the masculine and feminine pronouns respectively) and "ille" (pronounced identically to "il", which means it doesn't really work in its spoken form). Even so, the problem of gender agreement is ever-present, and there's really no simple solution.

As for both of those neo-pronouns, it's the first time I've ever heard of them but I doubt they will get any acceptance neither by the mainstream nor the Academia. Moreover, they strike me as trying to import foreign cultural concepts into a language that can't accept them to begin with as, as you pointed out very justly, our entire language is "sexued" from the objects to the conjugation of the verbs.

Oh, I would tend to agree. I'm actually not a huge fan of neo-pronouns myself, but some people do use them, and I try to respect the wishes of those who request their use. It's just that, linguistically speaking, pronouns are a closed class in most Indo-European languages, meaning that it's very rare that a new pronoun enters the lexicon of most speakers -- essentially, a pronoun will not enter a language just because a few people want it to. (Interestingly, this is potentially evidence for the establishment of new dialects based on the use of this sort of explicitly gender-neutral language.)

That said, despite my personally not being a fan of neo-pronouns, I'm a descriptivist, not a prescriptivist, so I'm just describing the options that exist rather than endorsing or proscribing any particular method.

[Liriena]

Anyone know anything about gender neutral pronouns in French, Spanish, or German?

Spanish speaker here. Sad to say that there's no decent gender neutral pronoun in sight. The closest thing would be "eso", which is the Spanish equivalent of "that" or "it".

Spanish is heavily gendered throughout.