Some good old fashioned Holocaust victim blaming/badhistory

[Ardavia]

It's also plenty easy when "those fucking rebels" are something that you, as govenrment official, will likely not personally fight. For the armed forces it becomes also quite easy when first reports of your comrades-in-arms who were just doing their fucking job get butchered and have their corpses desecrated by aforementioned "fucking rebels".

It starts out slightly less dirty, but it goes to shit all the same a short time into the actual fighting. That's kind of an inevitability of war, if millennia of human history are any indication.

at that point you need to look at the cause too. "why did my friends get butchered? oh right we sent their families to camps. even though they looked like me. and spoke my language. and watched the same tv I do. same religion etc etc"
as opposed to
"leader told me these [insert race] were subhuman. so I don't care."

Because mob mentality isn't a thing.

Because that random soldier would totally think like that, and not be pissed off at the bastards who are trying to kill him and his friends, and who strung up Johann, the funny jackass from boot camp, from a streetlamp with a big sign reading something like "German swine" around his neck.

[Fenexia and holochrome]

at that point you need to look at the cause too. "why did my friends get butchered? oh right we sent their families to camps. even though they looked like me. and spoke my language. and watched the same tv I do. same religion etc etc"
as opposed to
"leader told me these [insert race] were subhuman. so I don't care."

Because mob mentality isn't a thing.

Because that random soldier would totally think like that, and not be pissed off at the bastards who are trying to kill him and his friends, and who strung up Johann, the funny jackass from boot camp, from a streetlamp with a big sign reading something like "German swine" around his neck.

I don't think I'm being clear. I'm saying that it is easier to hate that person if the sign says "german swine" as opposed to "for my children"

[Ardavia]

Because mob mentality isn't a thing.

Because that random soldier would totally think like that, and not be pissed off at the bastards who are trying to kill him and his friends, and who strung up Johann, the funny jackass from boot camp, from a streetlamp with a big sign reading something like "German swine" around his neck.

I don't think I'm being clear. I'm saying that it is easier to hate that person if the sign says "german swine" as opposed to "for my children"

wow, i can barely see those goalposts anymore

but to answer your point

slightly, perhaps

but Johann will still be dead, and the strangers who killed him and possibly desecrated his corpse are actively trying to kill you

don't get me wrong, it'd be great if people actually thought so logically

but they don't, as evidenced by basically all of human history

[Mefpan]

Because mob mentality isn't a thing.

Because that random soldier would totally think like that, and not be pissed off at the bastards who are trying to kill him and his friends, and who strung up Johann, the funny jackass from boot camp, from a streetlamp with a big sign reading something like "German swine" around his neck.

I don't think I'm being clear. I'm saying that it is easier to hate that person if the sign says "german swine" as opposed to "for my children"

That doesn't really make people be that much more sympathetic when Johann was pulling boogers out of his nose to flick at the Oberstleutnant from behind back at the camp along with you and the rest of your squad when the family in question was attacked by some other douchebag. Like, what the fuck's Johann ever done to you? I've been with him and he hasn't killed anyone who didn't shoot at us, so what the fuck did he do to deserve to hang from a lamp post?

The emotional attachment to one's comrades-in-arms likely weighs in more heavily than the emotional attachment to some blindly vengeful person's children killed by some asshole that wasn't you.

[Russo-Byzantine Empire]

And hell, even then, hatred doesn't need to factor in. The soldiers could just be in it to survive, because that child you just passed could suddenly pull a knife on you and if you desert the Commissar will kill you and your entire family. Human beings are cowardly. We will, with a few exceptions, choose the option that has the best chance of us living, no matter how many kids we have to kill.

[Trotskylvania]

Let's not forget the simple fact that the Nazis liberalized gun laws, the laws that the Weimar republic instituted to disarm private armies like the SA that were threatening to overthrow the state.

[Daburuetchi]

People still take the GOP kulaks seriously?

[Russo-Byzantine Empire]

People still take the GOP kulaks seriously?

Please, don't insult a victimized class that was the victim of genocide by comparing them to the GOP. And yes, people take the GOP seriously because they represent corporations, who pump them full of money, and those include news corporations, so they have an excellent source of propoganda.

[USS Monitor]

Has this guy ever picked up a history textbook, or even done five minutes of research into the period?

Obviously not, especially since part of how the Nazis established themselves in the first place was by using some of the many guns that were available in Germany in the 1920s. Some of the guns were illegal, but there was still no shortage of guns in the hands of civilian Nazis. Bavarian authorities did little to nothing to limit the Nazis' access to guns, and some who were sympathetic to the Nazis even helped them get their hands on guns. If the Weimar Republic had more effective gun control (not just stricter, but also more consistently enforced), there's no telling what that would have done to Hitler's political career. It's definitely more complicated than Nazis gonna Nazi and the only way to stop it is to arm the Jews for self-defense. The Weimar Republic had a real problem with guns being too accessible to extremists like the Nazis, not to mention communists, monarchists, Bavarian separatists, etc.

[USS Monitor]

Let's not forget the simple fact that the Nazis liberalized gun laws, the laws that the Weimar republic instituted to disarm private armies like the SA that were threatening to overthrow the state.

Shh! Conservatives are wanking here! No facts allowed!

[Internationalist Bastard]

Oh? I mean, I'd get shot then endure a camp but, how many people expected it to go so far? These were minorites who had for centuries endured having rights stripped away. They probably just thought it was another phase

[Autonomous Titoists]

And hell, even then, hatred doesn't need to factor in. The soldiers could just be in it to survive, because that child you just passed could suddenly pull a knife on you and if you desert the Commissar will kill you and your entire family. Human beings are cowardly. We will, with a few exceptions, choose the option that has the best chance of us living, no matter how many kids we have to kill.

The Commissar was part of the Russian military hierarchy, Germans didn't shoot everyone who ran away from being shot by the other armies firing squad. Germany also gave all their soldiers guns so... but that is off topic.

Also 3.5 million Soviet POWs were killed in Nazi camps including Auschwitz and Birkenau maybe they should have armed themselves, oh wait.

[Obexer]

I honestly wonder how anybody though this was a good thing to say

It seemed right when I asked myself 'What would republican Jesus have done?'

[Autonomous Titoists]

I honestly wonder how anybody though this was a good thing to say

It seemed right when I asked myself 'What would republican Jesus have done?'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moPY9_wqH-8

We've got the American Jesus

[Hurdegaryp]

I honestly wonder how anybody though this was a good thing to say

It seemed right when I asked myself 'What would republican Jesus have done?'

Republican Jesus would have reconsidered Satan's offer, for starters. Hell, Republican Jesus might even say that Atlas Shrugged is bigger than Jesus!

[BK117B2]

The Warsaw Uprising was a good example of what could be accomplished.

Imagine how much more could have been with millions more of fighting age. He is correct: in hindsight it turns out to have been a horrible mistake.

The lesson to take away is not that the Jews (Roma, communists, etc) screwed up, but to not allow it to happen in the future. It really does fall under the old fool me once/fool me twice.

If the Jews of Europe reacted to violence perpetrated against them this way, they would have never made it to the 1940s.

And not been tortured before their deaths.

[Sun Wukong]

If the Jews of Europe reacted to violence perpetrated against them this way, they would have never made it to the 1940s.

And not been tortured before their deaths.

Because medieval pogromists are notoriously anti-torture?

[BK117B2]

The Warsaw Uprising was a good example of what could be accomplished.

Imagine how much more could have been with millions more of fighting age. He is correct: in hindsight it turns out to have been a horrible mistake.

The lesson to take away is not that the Jews (Roma, communists, etc) screwed up, but to not allow it to happen in the future. It really does fall under the old fool me once/fool me twice.

Which Warsaw rising are we talking about? The 44 one was done by the Poles and might have been successful if Stalin didn't let the SS kill them all. Then again, it wouldn't have happened if the Red Army wasn't at the gates of Warsaw in the first place, so that's kind of a moot point. The Ghetto rising, meanwhile, was an utter curbstomp and e Nazis would be absolutely willing to utterly burn the area to the ground otherwise. The sad truth is that minorities are completely boned if the people decide they don't like them, and nothing- not democracy and not guns- can change that. That is also why that, if guns were legal in Nazi Germany, the SS wouldn't have to do a thing. The German people would take care of that.

The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising specifically. Sorry, thought that was adequately implied. I would point out that they were both "done by the Poles"

Yeah, it was a defeat, but those dying there didn't have it any worse than the one who were slaughtered in captivity. Even with what few weapons they had, they tied up thousands of troops and inflicted casualties.

Maybe you think being tortured and executed is the better option. You're free to hold that opinion. Others are free to hold the opinion that fighting back is preferable, even if it comes with a battlefield death.

[BK117B2]

The Warsaw Uprising was a good example of what could be accomplished.

Imagine how much more could have been with millions more of fighting age. He is correct: in hindsight it turns out to have been a horrible mistake.

The lesson to take away is not that the Jews (Roma, communists, etc) screwed up, but to not allow it to happen in the future. It really does fall under the old fool me once/fool me twice.

they got fucking massacred jesus christ did you even fucking google it IT IS LITERALLY THE PRIME EXAMPLE OF WHY YOU ARE FUCKING WRONG and you still tried to use it

Which Warsaw rising are we talking about? The 44 one was done by the Poles and might have been successful if Stalin didn't let the SS kill them all. Then again, it wouldn't have happened if the Red Army wasn't at the gates of Warsaw in the first place, so that's kind of a moot point.

yeah this is a good point as well if you need an entire foreign army to make it work then it's a shit example of armed civilians working

You obviously didn't think that rough. Even with few weapons, they still tied up thousands of troops and inflicted casualties. You might want to study up on your history.

[BK117B2]

And not been tortured before their deaths.

Because medieval pogromists are notoriously anti-torture?

Because it is difficult to torture someone when they are shooting at you

[Sun Wukong]

Because medieval pogromists are notoriously anti-torture?

Because it is difficult to torture someone when they are shooting at you

And very easy to torture their unprotected wives and children when you've killed them all, because you massively outnumber them, and because historically Christians have reacted to any perceived threatening behavior by Jews with overwhelming force.

When I say, "they never would have made it to the 1940s," I don't mean "they would have made it to the 1930s," I mean "they wouldn't have made it past 1300."

[BK117B2]

Because it is difficult to torture someone when they are shooting at you

And very easy to torture their unprotected wives and children when you've killed them all, because you massively outnumber them, and because historically Christians have reacted to any perceived threatening behavior by Jews with overwhelming force.

When I say, "they never would have made it to the 1940s," I don't mean "they would have made it to the 1930s," I mean "they wouldn't have made it past 1300."

Yeah, very easy to torture children once the parents are gone...which means nothing much gets changed on that front.

When you talk about 1300, you're still missing the point. Those being tortured and slaughtered in the 1200s DIDN'T make it past 1300.

[Sun Wukong]

And very easy to torture their unprotected wives and children when you've killed them all, because you massively outnumber them, and because historically Christians have reacted to any perceived threatening behavior by Jews with overwhelming force.

When I say, "they never would have made it to the 1940s," I don't mean "they would have made it to the 1930s," I mean "they wouldn't have made it past 1300."

Yeah, very easy to torture children once the parents are gone...which means nothing much gets changed on that front.

When you talk about 1300, you're still missing the point. Those being tortured and slaughtered in the 1200s DIDN'T make it past 1300.

No.

Jews in Europe made it past 1300 precisely because they mostly didn't resort to violence even when threatened by it. Fighting back would have only seen more of them killed.

[BK117B2]

Yeah, very easy to torture children once the parents are gone...which means nothing much gets changed on that front.

When you talk about 1300, you're still missing the point. Those being tortured and slaughtered in the 1200s DIDN'T make it past 1300.

No.

Jews in Europe made it past 1300 precisely because they mostly didn't resort to violence even when threatened by it. Fighting back would have only seen more of them killed.

Fighting back cannot make someone any more dead.

[Sun Wukong]

No.

Jews in Europe made it past 1300 precisely because they mostly didn't resort to violence even when threatened by it. Fighting back would have only seen more of them killed.

Fighting back cannot make someone any more dead.

If you fight back you definitely die. If you don't fight back, most of the time, you don't die.

Until Hitler, that was an absolutely sound principal, and the reason why, for the entirety of the last millennia, there have continued to be Jews in Europe.

Your "strategy" makes sense only if you assume that all attacks against Jews are intended as absolute genocide.

Which is to say nothing about the escalation that would absolutely occur if word got out that Jews were killing Christians.

Basically, your suggestion is a suicidal adventure that's going to needlessly get a lot of your people killed.