Pagan Discussion Thread

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

The Roman deities were noticeably calmer to their cousins to be honest.

The Roman ones were violent, the Greek ones were calm.

You have those reversed since the Romans didn't initially have anthropomorphic deities at all till they exchanged ideas with the Etruscans, and other Greeks.

[Meryuma]

So, here are two problems with my current research in Rodnovery. First, it is much more nationalistic than other pagan religions, so much so that scholars have called it a "quasireligious extremist movement". I remember seeing plenty of Slavic pagan symbols in Russian and Ukrainian nationalist militias on VICE and other videos. Unlike Germanic paganism, where Nazis exist but aren't mainstream, it seems that most sources I run into are very nationalistic, if not openly Nazis. This is from Rodnovery.ru's about us page:

"Age-old precepts of our parents, our grandpas’ tales and grandmas' songs, national custom passing down from fathers to sons – here is the ground where our native faith stand on. Hitherto it keep on standing while we don’t forget our bloodline, that we are Slavs. And if we do forget, if we shall betray our own language polluting it with alien words, if we deprive us of fortune to speak to Mother-Nature, if we won’t observe our ancestors precepts and won’t pass it by inheritance so Russian nation will interrupt and others folks shall come who do remember and honor their custom.

...That’s why we have to take care to preserve the heritage of our ancestors for the glory of Russian land."

This is significantly more moderate than some forums I've crawled around in. Also, from an interview on the site:

"[What led to Rodnovery?] It's not a simple question. I have always been a nationalist at heart. By nationalism I mean love for one's nation, one's people, culture and traditions of the Ancestors."

That turns me off. I don't want a nationalist revival of pagan traditions, I just want to know what my ancestors practiced and see if it works for me. And that brings me to my next problem. Slavic paganism is one of the least documented pagan religions I've looked at, because the Slavs had no written language before Christianity. So, we have either Christian sources, or the Book of Veles, a book that many Rodnovers hold to be true despite being proven a forgery.

Despite this, I do like what credible resources I have found about the religion. It's just difficult swimming through a sea of neo-Nazism.

I was gonna warn about that rodnovery.ru site. The logo seems to have an SS symbol. Slavic pagans seem to be more chill outside of Russia and the Ukraine. I feel like a lot of Eastern European countries tend to be pretty far-right or have a large far-right contingent in general, which is frustrating because I find Slavic culture and folklore really intriguing (though I have no known Slavic heritage myself). I did find this resource which doesn't contain any racism or nationalism.

I can understand why some people get into some of the other various ones, but some of those who revert back to Hellenic and Roman religion just kinda have me puzzled. I mean I guess if it's just because they feel like their more "powerful" or help them more then sure, but I've seen a few (not most mind you) say that then point out how the Abrahamic deity is a massive dick. And while that is true, the Hellenic and Roman gods were also massive fucking assholes. Big time. I see it as trading in one massive dick for a bag full of massive dicks. *shrug*

A few of the gods (mostly Zeus, but also Hera and Ares) are portrayed as doing the majority of awful shit in the myths. There's a massive number of deities in the classical pantheons, all of which are traditionally viewed as deserving worship and they don't easily fit into moral dichotomies most of the time. I am interested in Hellenism, but the god who appeals to me most is Dionysos. I wouldn't really want anything to do with Zeus. I think a lot of modern Hellenists are more influenced by later philosophers' views of Zeus rather than the easily angered rapey bird-morphing guy of the earlier myths. Classical Greece was a very mixed bag in terms of its values.

[The Alexanderians]

Swedish Pagans are best pagans

[Thurses]

Swedish Pagans are best pagans

This was going to happen sooner or later.

[The Alexanderians]

Swedish Pagans are best pagans

This was going to happen sooner or later.

i'm surprised it didn't already

[Risottia]

The Roman ones were violent, the Greek ones were calm.

Tell that to Marsyas.

[United Fascist States of North America]

The Roman ones were violent, the Greek ones were calm.

You have those reversed since the Romans didn't initially have anthropomorphic deities at all till they exchanged ideas with the Etruscans, and other Greeks.

But the end product was much more violent than Greek mythology- for example, Ares, in Greek Mythology, was the god of war in the strategic and honorable sense. He was the patron of POWs and had his own rules of war. The Roman Mars was the god of war in the carnage sense. He encouraged cruelty to enemy prisoners and imposed no rules on torture.

Just an example. Jupiter was also prone to killing mortals in Roman myth, while not so much in Greek myth.

[The Wolven League]

You have those reversed since the Romans didn't initially have anthropomorphic deities at all till they exchanged ideas with the Etruscans, and other Greeks.

But the end product was much more violent than Greek mythology- for example, Ares, in Greek Mythology, was the god of war in the strategic and honorable sense. He was the patron of POWs and had his own rules of war. The Roman Mars was the god of war in the carnage sense. He encouraged cruelty to enemy prisoners and imposed no rules on torture.

Just an example. Jupiter was also prone to killing mortals in Roman myth, while not so much in Greek myth.

While I do agree that the Roman gods were much more violent and war-orientated that their Greek counterparts, the Greek Ares was also portrayed as being fairly dumb and incredibly bloodthirsty, which got him into many an embarrassing situation where he could not get out and had to be saved by other gods because he bit off more than he could chew.

Athena was portrayed as goddess of war in the strategic sense. Ares was just god of violence in general.

[United Fascist States of North America]

But the end product was much more violent than Greek mythology- for example, Ares, in Greek Mythology, was the god of war in the strategic and honorable sense. He was the patron of POWs and had his own rules of war. The Roman Mars was the god of war in the carnage sense. He encouraged cruelty to enemy prisoners and imposed no rules on torture.

Just an example. Jupiter was also prone to killing mortals in Roman myth, while not so much in Greek myth.

While I do agree that the Roman gods were much more violent and war-orientated that their Greek counterparts, the Greek Ares was also portrayed as being fairly dumb and incredibly bloodthirsty, which got him into many an embarrassing situation where he could not get out and had to be saved by other gods because he bit off more than he could chew.

Athena was portrayed as goddess of war in the strategic sense. Ares was just god of violence in general.

Yes, but Ares did not allow any harm to come to POWs- something Mars didn't give a crap about.

[The Wolven League]

While I do agree that the Roman gods were much more violent and war-orientated that their Greek counterparts, the Greek Ares was also portrayed as being fairly dumb and incredibly bloodthirsty, which got him into many an embarrassing situation where he could not get out and had to be saved by other gods because he bit off more than he could chew.

Athena was portrayed as goddess of war in the strategic sense. Ares was just god of violence in general.

Yes, but Ares did not allow any harm to come to POWs- something Mars didn't give a crap about.

I don't recall there being anything about Ares being kind towards POW's in the myths. Maybe you just read a different version.

In some ways the Roman Mars was actually wiser than the Greek Ares. Ares was depicted as some sort of lumbering beast who lived to kill and was feared by most Greeks. Meanwhile, Mars was portrayed as a noble yet warmongering hero and was revered by Roman troops.

[United Fascist States of North America]

Yes, but Ares did not allow any harm to come to POWs- something Mars didn't give a crap about.

I don't recall there being anything about Ares being kind towards POW's in the myths. Maybe you just read a different version.

In some ways the Roman Mars was actually wiser than the Greek Ares. Ares was depicted as some sort of lumbering beast who lived to kill and was feared by most Greeks. Meanwhile, Mars was portrayed as a noble yet warmongering hero and was revered by Roman troops.

Ares was captured by the giants when they tried to sack Olympus, and he was kept in a bronze urn for days on end before being rescued by Hermes. After that, he became sort of the patron of prisoners of war and forbid the mistreatment of them.

The only reason Mars was seen as noble is because he was terrible and bloodthirsty, and the Romans respected that.

[The Wolven League]

I don't recall there being anything about Ares being kind towards POW's in the myths. Maybe you just read a different version.

In some ways the Roman Mars was actually wiser than the Greek Ares. Ares was depicted as some sort of lumbering beast who lived to kill and was feared by most Greeks. Meanwhile, Mars was portrayed as a noble yet warmongering hero and was revered by Roman troops.

Ares was captured by the giants when they tried to sack Olympus, and he was kept in a bronze urn for days on end before being rescued by Hermes. After that, he became sort of the patron of prisoners of war and forbid the mistreatment of them.

The only reason Mars was seen as noble is because he was terrible and bloodthirsty, and the Romans respected that.

I'm aware of the bronze jar myth. But in all the versions of that myth I never read anything about him gaining sympathy for prisoners because of it.

And yes, violence was considered a noble quality by early Romans. But Mars was also depicted as being somewhat noble in the more usual sense, like a prestigious statesmen or the like (just much, much more warlike). But Ares was basically just depicted as a full-on soldier whose entire existence was based on killing.

[United Fascist States of North America]

Ares was captured by the giants when they tried to sack Olympus, and he was kept in a bronze urn for days on end before being rescued by Hermes. After that, he became sort of the patron of prisoners of war and forbid the mistreatment of them.

The only reason Mars was seen as noble is because he was terrible and bloodthirsty, and the Romans respected that.

I'm aware of the bronze jar myth. But in all the versions of that myth I never read anything about him gaining sympathy for prisoners because of it.

And yes, violence was considered a noble quality by early Romans. But Mars was also depicted as being somewhat noble in the more usual sense, like a prestigious statesmen or the like (just much, much more warlike). But Ares was basically just depicted as a full-on soldier whose entire existence was based on killing.

Fair enough.

[New Empire of Japan]

Where's the love for Tengri?

[The Wolven League]

Where's the love for Tengri?

In the steppes.

[The Wolven League]

So, here are two problems with my current research in Rodnovery. First, it is much more nationalistic than other pagan religions, so much so that scholars have called it a "quasireligious extremist movement". I remember seeing plenty of Slavic pagan symbols in Russian and Ukrainian nationalist militias on VICE and other videos. Unlike Germanic paganism, where Nazis exist but aren't mainstream, it seems that most sources I run into are very nationalistic, if not openly Nazis. This is from Rodnovery.ru's about us page:

"Age-old precepts of our parents, our grandpas’ tales and grandmas' songs, national custom passing down from fathers to sons – here is the ground where our native faith stand on. Hitherto it keep on standing while we don’t forget our bloodline, that we are Slavs. And if we do forget, if we shall betray our own language polluting it with alien words, if we deprive us of fortune to speak to Mother-Nature, if we won’t observe our ancestors precepts and won’t pass it by inheritance so Russian nation will interrupt and others folks shall come who do remember and honor their custom.

...That’s why we have to take care to preserve the heritage of our ancestors for the glory of Russian land."

This is significantly more moderate than some forums I've crawled around in. Also, from an interview on the site:

"[What led to Rodnovery?] It's not a simple question. I have always been a nationalist at heart. By nationalism I mean love for one's nation, one's people, culture and traditions of the Ancestors."

That turns me off. I don't want a nationalist revival of pagan traditions, I just want to know what my ancestors practiced and see if it works for me. And that brings me to my next problem. Slavic paganism is one of the least documented pagan religions I've looked at, because the Slavs had no written language before Christianity. So, we have either Christian sources, or the Book of Veles, a book that many Rodnovers hold to be true despite being proven a forgery.

Despite this, I do like what credible resources I have found about the religion. It's just difficult swimming through a sea of neo-Nazism.

Many of the Eastern European paganisms tend to be more nationalistic in nature, Romuva and Rodnovery especially, and to a lesser extent Suomenusko. Heathenry is also usually nationalistic or simply edgy in nature but not to the extent of the aforementioned faiths. (and isn't Eastern European either)

[Impaled Nazarene]

I know quite a few wiccans, and i can say they know how to make me feel uncomfortable. Me personally i'm not one for paganism even for literature. I much prefer the atrocity known as monotheism despite being a Ditheist myself

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=332361
relevant

[The New Sea Territory]

I was gonna warn about that rodnovery.ru site. The logo seems to have an SS symbol. Slavic pagans seem to be more chill outside of Russia and the Ukraine. I feel like a lot of Eastern European countries tend to be pretty far-right or have a large far-right contingent in general, which is frustrating because I find Slavic culture and folklore really intriguing (though I have no known Slavic heritage myself). I did find this resource which doesn't contain any racism or nationalism.

I saw the SS bolts but dismissed it, assuming it was runes used in a different context. Apparently it isn't.

Thanks for the link, I'll look at it later.

Many of the Eastern European paganisms tend to be more nationalistic in nature, Romuva and Rodnovery especially, and to a lesser extent Suomenusko. Heathenry is also usually nationalistic or simply edgy in nature but not to the extent of the aforementioned faiths. (and isn't Eastern European either)

I've noticed that. Nationalists Heathens are pretty uncommon from what I've seen, but I've found only one non-nationalist source about Rodnovery.

[The Wolven League]

I was gonna warn about that rodnovery.ru site. The logo seems to have an SS symbol. Slavic pagans seem to be more chill outside of Russia and the Ukraine. I feel like a lot of Eastern European countries tend to be pretty far-right or have a large far-right contingent in general, which is frustrating because I find Slavic culture and folklore really intriguing (though I have no known Slavic heritage myself). I did find this resource which doesn't contain any racism or nationalism.

I saw the SS bolts but dismissed it, assuming it was runes used in a different context. Apparently it isn't.

Thanks for the link, I'll look at it later.

Many of the Eastern European paganisms tend to be more nationalistic in nature, Romuva and Rodnovery especially, and to a lesser extent Suomenusko. Heathenry is also usually nationalistic or simply edgy in nature but not to the extent of the aforementioned faiths. (and isn't Eastern European either)

I've noticed that. Nationalists Heathens are pretty uncommon from what I've seen, but I've found only one non-nationalist source about Rodnovery.

Not quite nationalist, perhaps, but definitely more focused around pride of Norse heritage than true belief usually.

[Meryuma]

I know quite a few wiccans, and i can say they know how to make me feel uncomfortable. Me personally i'm not one for paganism even for literature. I much prefer the atrocity known as monotheism despite being a Ditheist myself

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=332361
relevant

Who are your two deities?

I don't recall there being anything about Ares being kind towards POW's in the myths. Maybe you just read a different version.

In some ways the Roman Mars was actually wiser than the Greek Ares. Ares was depicted as some sort of lumbering beast who lived to kill and was feared by most Greeks. Meanwhile, Mars was portrayed as a noble yet warmongering hero and was revered by Roman troops.

Ares was captured by the giants when they tried to sack Olympus, and he was kept in a bronze urn for days on end before being rescued by Hermes. After that, he became sort of the patron of prisoners of war and forbid the mistreatment of them.

The only reason Mars was seen as noble is because he was terrible and bloodthirsty, and the Romans respected that.

Actually, the Roman Mars was seen as an agricultural god in addition to a war god and was the patron of the city of Rome. He is far more central to Religio Romana than Ares is to Hellenismos.

Not quite nationalist, perhaps, but definitely more focused around pride of Norse heritage than true belief usually.

Except the average Heathen is way more polytheistic than the average Wiccan...

[Nature-Spirits]

I've also sometimes semi-seriously considered sketching out a Gunnerkrigg Court-based religion. Basically it would involve deified animal characters from medieval folklore and some spirit journeying elements mixed with alchemy. The central theme would be balancing rationality and wildness. A practitioner could choose to focus on one of the two Courts or both. That's all I got though.

I think I love you.

Anyway, my relationship with religion is... complicated. When asked what my religious beliefs are, I could literally write an essay (although I will refrain from doing so here ).

I used to be an eclectic solitary Wiccan, but ultimately, it wasn't for me. There wasn't really one specific moment when I stopped being Wiccan; I just sort of moved away from it gradually as I stopped engaging in spiritual practice on a regular basis and, eventually, began reexamining my spiritual beliefs. In a sense, I believe in gods, but don't tend to take any mythology literally. I'm kind of ietsist, and I suppose I could be described as a pantheist. I see gods as real, personal beings, but I suspect that they are incorporeal manifestations -- thoughtforms, if you will -- of the immanent energy which pervades the universe, created by the collective consciousness of mankind. I could be wrong, of course -- I've always been pretty agnostic. But I've had some pretty spiritual experiences, so I'm inclined to believe that there's something out there. On the other hand, I'm somewhat atheistic: I'm simultaneously a sceptic and a believer, which can be confusing when I really think about it. But I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, so I don't worry about it.

As to what happens after death? I don't know. I'm inclined to believe that our energy gets recycled in its raw form and we cease to be individuals after death, although I also think that it's conceivable that people and events can leave behind imprints (ghosts, if you will). Anyway, again, I'm pretty agnostic about it all, so I'm open to other viewpoints.

[Camelza]

I was always fascinated by Hinduism, although I guess Hinduism is a much more complex collection of religions and beliefs than common polytheism and it has many aspects of monotheism as well to be called "pagan", or polytheistic.

Regarding pagan-pagan religions, I guess the Levant pantheons appeal to me the most with Ishtar/Astarte and Baal.

[Impaled Nazarene]

I know quite a few wiccans, and i can say they know how to make me feel uncomfortable. Me personally i'm not one for paganism even for literature. I much prefer the atrocity known as monotheism despite being a Ditheist myself

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=332361
relevant

Who are your two deities?

Chuck Schuldiner and Quorthon

[Naushantiya]

The Only true religion is the worship of god through Krishna consciousness

[The Wolven League]

The Only true religion is the worship of god through Krishna consciousness

Welp, we got ourselves a fundamentalist Hindu ultra-nationalist, methinks.