Bernie Sanders, Economically Indefensible.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

From the linked article (and thanks, that was a good read):



So in other words, we're seeing high-paying jobs created for those with particular high-end skill sets, and low-paying jobs created for those with limited to no skills, but we're seeing the stagnation and eventual disappearance of a huge number of mid-range jobs, the ones that allowed the average American worker to live a middle-class life. You don't see this tendency towards greater and greater income inequality as an issue, with masses at the bottom, a few at the top, and practically no room in the middle?

Except the top isn't the top 1%. It's more like the top 10-20%

And anyone can become part of it if they try hard enough.

And if you don't have the brains/skill/creativity, then you would have never been productive in the first place.

You're completely ignoring the mass of people in the middle who don't have the abstract reasoning needed for the top work, but still have the potential for tool and die work, or to run a lathe, or to work on an automobile assembly line. These are hard-working, productive people who aren't necessarily college-bound, but have a strong work ethic, the ability to learn a skill set and apply said skill set to their jobs, and to do so with pride in their accomplishments. These are the people being squeezed out of jobs by further automation. They're not going to be part of that top 10-20%, because no, not everybody is going to be there no matter how hard they work. You actually can't run an economy that way. You've created what is essentially an oligarchy. You're dismissing the entire middle class, and consigning them to piecing together full-time hours from part-time jobs that lack benefits, working 60 hours a week just to support their families, and giving their children no chance to do better without going into crippling debt to pay for college. It's a formula for eventual dystopia.

[Wallenburg]

True, though I would prefer that Yorkvale's fascination with Senator Sanders work itself out in just one.

He's not fascinated with Sanders.

He's fascinated that so many people are fascinated with Sanders. Have you seen the memes? It's a freaking cult.

He's just feeling the Bern.

[Harkback Union]

Mod edit: Come on, add something, don't just pic spam.

[Omega America II]

(Image)

LOL
I'm going for Rand Paul or Donald Trump but that is cool.

[Rock Lobsters]

(Image)

LOL
I'm going for Rand Paul or Donald Trump but that is cool.

Too bad Rand Paul is so low in the polls. He seemed like the only Republican who knew what the hell was going on.

[Omega America II]

LOL
I'm going for Rand Paul or Donald Trump but that is cool.

Too bad Rand Paul is so low in the polls. He seemed like the only Republican who knew what the hell was going on.

I know. Poor Rand Paul.

[Wikipedi]

deleted

[Grave_n_idle]

Except the top isn't the top 1%. It's more like the top 10-20%

And anyone can become part of it if they try hard enough.

Two big problems:

One: It's not true that that kind of mobility is attainable by everyone.

Two: That's not how math works. Everyone CAN'T be part of the top 20%. By definition.

[Genivaria]

(Image)

LOL
I'm going for Rand Paul or Donald Trump but that is cool.

Wow you must REALLY hate America.

[Kvatchdom]

Rand Paul was just like every other Republican, but weaker in the domestic and foreign policies. Nothing good about that.

[Wallenburg]

LOL
I'm going for Rand Paul or Donald Trump but that is cool.

Wow you must REALLY hate America.

Please no flamebaiting. I dislike Omega's opinions extremely, but I wouldn't stoop to that level.

[Rock Lobsters]

Rand Paul was just like every other Republican, but weaker in the domestic and foreign policies. Nothing good about that.

He is better then Trump and Ted,ewww, Cruz.

[Kvatchdom]

Rand Paul was just like every other Republican, but weaker in the domestic and foreign policies. Nothing good about that.

He is better then Trump and Ted,ewww, Cruz.

Yeah, but I'd even take Jeb before Rand Paul.

[Cannot think of a name]

Hard work isn't what it takes, if it was a lot more people would be rich.

I'd dare say if it was really a matter of just 'hard work' migrant farm workers would migrate in Maybachs.

But then this Heratio Alger notion of 'hard work' means that we have to be so abstract with what constitutes 'hard work' that in the end it loses all meaning.

[Rock Lobsters]

He is better then Trump and Ted,ewww, Cruz.

Yeah, but I'd even take Jeb before Rand Paul.

After the last Bush. I don't know about Jeb.

[Kvatchdom]

Yeah, but I'd even take Jeb before Rand Paul.

After the last Bush. I don't know about Jeb.

He's a moderate compared to the rest of the crazies.

[Cannot think of a name]

Yeah, but I'd even take Jeb before Rand Paul.

After the last Bush. I don't know about Jeb.

This seems a bit like carefully deciding which boot you'd like the person to wear before they kick you in the nuts.

[Rock Lobsters]

After the last Bush. I don't know about Jeb.

This seems a bit like carefully deciding which boot you'd like the person to wear before they kick you in the nuts.

I don't get your figurative language. Spell it out for me.

After the last Bush. I don't know about Jeb.

He's a moderate compared to the rest of the crazies.

Tousche.

[Omega America II]

LOL
I'm going for Rand Paul or Donald Trump but that is cool.

Wow you must REALLY hate America.

No, because I love America. Rand Paul speaks the truth. Donald Trump, well, he, well, he's unique, that all I have to say.

[Omega America II]

After the last Bush. I don't know about Jeb.

He's a moderate compared to the rest of the crazies.

Actually, Jeb Bush is really looking good now besides Rand Pual and Donald Trump, I would vote for him if it comes to it.

[Geilinor]

Rand Paul was just like every other Republican, but weaker in the domestic and foreign policies. Nothing good about that.

We got strong foreign policy for eight years under Bush. It was too strong.

[Cannot think of a name]

This seems a bit like carefully deciding which boot you'd like the person to wear before they kick you in the nuts.

I don't get your figurative language. Spell it out for me.

No matter what boot you pick, you're still getting kicked in the nuts.

[Celicaland Autonomous Region]

I to some extent support open borders but very much can understand where he is coming from and why. I would only support open borders if the treaties were two sided, not one sided. In Mexico illegal entry is a felony, and a second time illegally entering can get up to 10 years in jail, and deportation has no due process or courts there, it's simply at the whim of Mexican authorities. So in this regard, I think an open border policy wouldn't be automatic death or negativity to our country, just the problem I see is that likely if such a policy was introduced, it would be one sided toward Mexican migrant workers coming to USA and not vice versa. If such a policy was introduced, then the opportunity of Americans to buy property, start businesses, and go to and from Mexico without any interference or visas would also need to be done as well. And frankly, I don't see the Mexican government allowing such a program, as Mexico would want the free lunch of migrant workers bringing money back into Mexico without giving anything in return. So Mexico would likely not support a truly open border, so I don't understand why this ideology is even discussed. And Canada frankly I think wants as little to do with the countries below it as possible as it didn't decide in the 1980s to turn itself into a third world country so the Mitt Romneys of it could benefit.

As far as what Sanders believes, he is right. This country had the most prosperity when most work was under labor unions, and this is a fact! An absolute fact. Now, did unions possibly get too greedy? Yes, maybe. But not having unions is now turning us into a hellhole where everyone now works 2-3 part time jobs at min wage and still lives with their parents at 25 instead of being able to buy a house and support a family with one parent working. The fact is, minimum wage through the 1960s and 1970s fluctuated at $9-12 of today's dollars. My mother at her first job in 1970 working at Grant's department store made $1.60, or $9.84 per hour in today's dollars. You could in fact save for Harvard in 1974 on a minimum wage job! You'd have to work 42 weeks at 40 hours per week at min wage to pay for a year of tuition at $3400. Now at federal min wage of $7.25, you would have to work 156 weeks to cover it. Basically, there was a time in USA where you could just "work hard" and actually do well for yourself with a traditional route. Now, yes, opportunity still exists in this country, but unless you are doing something special in some fashion, you will not make it, regardless of how hard you work, and Bernie would like to change that.

I don't believe he is a bigot with regards to immigration, but the fact is, having migrant workers come and work for nothing only would benefit a business owner, not a worker. Yes, you can use that to push numbers like "GDP growth" or whatever, but this does not matter to the average man who sees his living conditions deteriorate or is awash in debt. And regardless of the iPhones and Jordan sneakers around for cheap thanks to third world labor, it does not benefit a person much to have a new iPhone every few months on credit when things like housing, education and health care are much more important.

Also Rand Paul with his heroin comment pretty much said something more stupid than anything Bush or Biden has ever said, so he's proven himself to be a shill for corporate interests as well.

[Yorkvale]

Except the top isn't the top 1%. It's more like the top 10-20%

And anyone can become part of it if they try hard enough.

And if you don't have the brains/skill/creativity, then you would have never been productive in the first place.

You're completely ignoring the mass of people in the middle who don't have the abstract reasoning needed for the top work, but still have the potential for tool and die work, or to run a lathe, or to work on an automobile assembly line. These are hard-working, productive people who aren't necessarily college-bound, but have a strong work ethic, the ability to learn a skill set and apply said skill set to their jobs, and to do so with pride in their accomplishments. These are the people being squeezed out of jobs by further automation. They're not going to be part of that top 10-20%, because no, not everybody is going to be there no matter how hard they work. You actually can't run an economy that way. You've created what is essentially an oligarchy. You're dismissing the entire middle class, and consigning them to piecing together full-time hours from part-time jobs that lack benefits, working 60 hours a week just to support their families, and giving their children no chance to do better without going into crippling debt to pay for college. It's a formula for eventual dystopia.

Alright, so here's the deal. And you're either going to agree with me or disagree with me, but here's the deal. The society I envision, and the society my ideal policies would craft is not an oligarchy. None of this either you own a mansion in bangledish, two sports cars, and a jumbo jet or you have dirt type of deal.

Nor do I expect everyone to be college bound.

Rather, there are three forms of employment you are headed into. If you don't go the college route, you have two choices to be successful and sport a family.

1) Freelancing, find a niche thing you can do really well and own it. Advertise for it, and do things on your terms.

2) Entrepreneurship, develop a cool idea and steer its production and sale head on, the way you want to on your terms.

3) Intrapreneurship, sort of like entrepreneurship but a bit more stable. You associate yourself with a company, develop a niche idea within the company and test boundaries. Develop new technologies and grab the bull by the horns.

All of which require you to be interesting, have a personality, have whacky but plausible ideas. You don't necessarily need a college degree, you just need to demonstrate that you can do these things. You can learn from books, or with your hands, or develop cool plots from ideas you found online.

This is what I envision of being the future. No cushy and predictable 9-5s, a mix and match of these 3 things. The only cushy 9-5s will be available to those of college education that fit the need of being the best and the brightest in their respective fields.

Imho, this is the most exciting type of future, and the real divide isn't between the middle class and the rich. Under this system we can maintain a solid middle class. The real disparity comes between the rich and the poor, as is inevitable in any advanced economic system. The solution to the talentless, the boring, and the woefully uneducated is a negative income tax. Barebones, simply give them capital. Enough for a decent apartment and a small family, adaptive to areas with different costs of living. This would replace every form of welfare. And you know, poor people could do what they will with that. Find a job, try to develop something unique, etc.

See the biggest problem I have with people like Bernie Sanders, is that they assume it will be the state, and not the individual, that is responsible for how life will turn out. They assume that the game has always been rigged, that there is a finite amount of wealth, and anyone who goes from rags to riches has done so by luck. Which is absolute garbage.

Economics has never been a sum zero game, and nearly every individual (Again, not all. You will find exceptions to everything) I would say the vast majority of people who are wealthy deserve to be wealthy.

Hardwork isn't good enough, nor should it be. The way of the future is smart work. creative work. unique ideas. Niche markets.

Those who genuinely have a reason for not being able to do much, and as much as I do believe anyone can do anything, (I'm a son to an immigrant it's just the way my brain is wired) there are exceptions. Mental disabilities, mental handicaps, etc. That, is understandable. Disabled workers should receive special benefits for being disabled.

In fact I make our future out to be very exciting! I see no dystopia at all. The economy is doing great, people are happy, and life goes on. We just need to get the rest of the world up to 1st world speed. To which I would say people like Bernie Sanders are not doing. Being against free trade, freer borders, and for taxing the hell out of business and instituting laws and regulations that make risk taking pioneering even more unattractive is inherently Un-American. Not only is it Un-American, but I consider it to be immoral. And even worse, economically disproven.

And there is always disproportion and there always should be disproportion. There should always be a top 1% and a top 10% and a top 20%

Because even if there is significant disproportion, as society advances and people continue to live, their living standards rise. They might get a smaller scrap of the pie, but the pie has grown significantly and if they aren't happy with the pie, they can make another one. I.E why entrepreneurship is a thing. After all, it only takes one app to take off......and you're a billionaire. At the very least, many people can make very good livings through entrepreneurship, and while that shouldn't be the only drive it can be part of it. There are many millionaires in the world, they aren't celebrities or very much special. And you don't hear about them, nor can you really recognize them but you probably see them on a day to day basis. Being rich isn't that much of an anomaly. Being famously and outrageously rich, is.

[Yorkvale]

Except the top isn't the top 1%. It's more like the top 10-20%

And anyone can become part of it if they try hard enough.

Two big problems:

One: It's not true that that kind of mobility is attainable by everyone.

Two: That's not how math works. Everyone CAN'T be part of the top 20%. By definition.

Even if there is significant disproportion, as society advances and people continue to live their living standards rise. They might get a smaller scrap of the pie, but the pie has grown significantly and if they aren't happy with the pie, they can make another one. I.E why entrepreneurship is a thing.