Indian village "court" orders 2 sisters gang-raped

[Kar-Esseria]

Wow, way to go completely out of your way to demonize religion when religion is completely fucking irrelevant in this case.

This isn't about religion, it's about a fucked up, backwards culture that continues to persist in a newly industrialized country. Go spew your Anti-Theism somewhere else. Out of the dozens of religions in India, there is not one that would promote something like this. Any Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, and Zoroastrians in their right mind would be outraged about this.

IIRC, the caste system is attached to Hinduism as it presents the Hindu conception of the social order; mainly that people are different, and different people will fit well into different aspects of society. That being said, the caste system we see in modern day India, was very influenced by the Islamic conquest and, later on, by the British conquest.

I'm aware of that, but like you said it's not the caste system itself that's the problem, it's the fact it's gone so far off center from what it was.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

IIRC, the caste system is attached to Hinduism as it presents the Hindu conception of the social order; mainly that people are different, and different people will fit well into different aspects of society. That being said, the caste system we see in modern day India, was very influenced by the Islamic conquest and, later on, by the British conquest.

I'm aware of that, but like you said it's not the caste system itself that's the problem, it's the fact it's gone so far off center from what it was.

For what I've been gathering of Indian society, change is not something very immediate. Traditions hold a strong sway over it.

[Kar-Esseria]

I'm aware of that, but like you said it's not the caste system itself that's the problem, it's the fact it's gone so far off center from what it was.

For what I've been gathering of Indian society, change is not something very immediate. Traditions hold a strong sway over it.

Traditions are all fine and dandy, but when they end up promoting blind prejudice and outright violence then it's time to rethink your traditions.

[Fesconia]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/28/indian-village-orders-gang-rape-of-2-sisters.html



And here we have the latest entry in "Why religion has no place in the judicial system of a civilized nation". Though we see examples like this constantly, there are still those in the west that agitate and demand religious principles/laws be used in civil courts. Either by permitting informal Islamic courts within the UK or American politicians calling for a violation of the establishment clause by forcing civil courts to adopt biblical law. It seems that no matter the religion, there will always exist a significant threat to human rights and civil liberties.

In my view, the three nations mentioned in this post serve as a living timeline, India having suffered under religious indoctrination for so long that it's a deeply ingrained social institution with significant authority, The UK having relatively recently decided to appease it's Islamic population and is now at the start of the phenomenon, where religion is just now beginning to assert it's power within their society, and finally the US, having kept the influence well at bay until around the 50s-60s, is now on the cusp of joining the backslide into oblivion.

Or is this simply one of those silly cultural differences that it's best to overlook? What say you, NSG? Is there any value to informal religious court systems that I am ignoring? What about "segregated" courts which only rule within specific racial/religious communities?

Wow, way to go completely out of your way to demonize religion when religion is completely fucking irrelevant in this case.

This isn't about religion, it's about a fucked up, backwards culture that continues to persist in a newly industrialized country. Go spew your Anti-Theism somewhere else. Out of the dozens of religions in India, there is not one that would promote something like this. Any Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, and Zoroastrians in their right mind would be outraged about this.

I agree. I'm pretty sure there's nothing in religious Hindu texts that states this as an okay punishment for this so called crime. It's the court to blame, and a lack of moral judgement by them. Maybe they were influenced by religion or the caste system but in the end it was their own damn fault.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

For what I've been gathering of Indian society, change is not something very immediate. Traditions hold a strong sway over it.

Traditions are all fine and dandy, but when they end up promoting blind prejudice and outright violence then it's time to rethink your traditions.

I don't disagree. I think this incident is disgusting. But considering the host of other horrible issues involving women there, this is hardly surprising.

[Costa Fierro]

For what I've been gathering of Indian society, change is not something very immediate. Traditions hold a strong sway over it.

Traditions are all fine and dandy, but when they end up promoting blind prejudice and outright violence then it's time to rethink your traditions.

Or, actually enforce the laws that Parliament passes. If these councils are apparently illegal according to the law, then there should be at least a push by local authorities to have them disbanded and their members arrested, if necessary.

[AiliailiA]

This has little to do with religion, and more to do with a culture where women are still being treated as property and as less worth than a male. They have been ordered raped to shame their family.

What this 'informal council' needs is to, themselves, be subjected to the 'judgment' they blithely passed on others. That, or shot, I don't much care which.

Regardless of the topic at hand, advocating rape/murder is absolutely unacceptable. This is a bad example for the rest of the player base. Considering your spotless record over the last 12+ years, unofficial warning for advocating rape/murder.

"Absolutely unacceptable" is dead right. Posts which are "absolutely unacceptable" deserves a Warning.

It is also a bad example for the rest of the player base. For a Moderator to "set a bad example" is an aggravation of the offence. If you're implying that Moderators should be held to a higher standard than other posters, I absolutely agree.

Considering the spotless record, it remains spotless because the moderation team don't have the guts to give Katganistan what she so richly deserves. A Warning with the red text and the black outline.

BTW, you're a Mod now? Last I remember you were a Game Mentor. When did this happen?

[Lockdownn]

This has little to do with religion, and more to do with a culture where women are still being treated as property and as less worth than a male. They have been ordered raped to shame their family.

What this 'informal council' needs is to, themselves, be subjected to the 'judgment' they blithely passed on others. That, or shot, I don't much care which.

Regardless of the topic at hand, advocating rape/murder is absolutely unacceptable. This is a bad example for the rest of the player base. Considering your spotless record over the last 12+ years, unofficial warning for advocating rape/murder.

Yeah... wtf.

"Absolutely unacceptable" is dead right. Posts which are "absolutely unacceptable" deserves a Warning.

Depends on the record.

It is also a bad example for the rest of the player base. For a Moderator to "set a bad example" is an aggravation of the offence. If you're implying that Moderators should be held to a higher standard than other posters, I absolutely agree.

Then don't follow that example. Be your own "good example". Show us you can be better.

Considering the spotless record, it remains spotless because the moderation team don't have the guts to give Katganistan what she so richly deserves. A Warning with the red text and the black outline.

If it were "deserved" then she'd have it. They would have no real reason to be scared as the admins are a click away.

BTW, you're a Mod now? Last I remember you were a Game Mentor. When did this happen?

It happened: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=342917&hilit=luna+amore

---

Besides that irrelevant fucking post. I don't see how this shit happens and the actual government of India could care less. If they had their shit straight then then send the fucking military in there and take back their land and install order.

[Imperializt Russia]

Regardless of the topic at hand, advocating rape/murder is absolutely unacceptable. This is a bad example for the rest of the player base. Considering your spotless record over the last 12+ years, unofficial warning for advocating rape/murder.

"Absolutely unacceptable" is dead right. Posts which are "absolutely unacceptable" deserves a Warning.

It is also a bad example for the rest of the player base. For a Moderator to "set a bad example" is an aggravation of the offence. If you're implying that Moderators should be held to a higher standard than other posters, I absolutely agree.

Considering the spotless record, it remains spotless because the moderation team don't have the guts to give Katganistan what she so richly deserves. A Warning with the red text and the black outline.

Take it to moderation.

In my personal opinion a "12+ year spotless record" is worth "unofficial warning".

[AiliailiA]

I accidentally made my first post to the thread, about something other than the thread subject. I apologize, and seek to make good.

Firstly, I am suspicious that the "orders" of some villagers are being reported as a "village court order". I'm imagining a club of fat old men, getting together quarterly to bitch about shit they don't like but can't really do anything about, one of them shouts out "rape his sisters" and the others are like "Rape? Rape! LOL!"

But then this question of whether the caste system is related to religion in India arises, and I'm dead serious. Of course it is. Reincarnation is a core belief in Hinduism (and even if it's not, it's a religious belief widespread in India). A belief that people are born into good circumstances or bad circumstances, depending on how they lived their previous life, very obviously supports the caste system.

The belief in reincarnation (of a spirit transferred from one living being to some other) is a religious belief. It is total bunkum, convenient delusion, a dumb answer to an unanswerable question. In short, religion. For one person to hold such beliefs doesn't cause any harm, they're just one person who is deluded about some abstract concern and most likely they can still be a good neighbour, good citizen and good friend and family. But when many people hold the same conviction, it can become what other posters have called a "social phenomenon". Religion is passed down over generations, religion is taught, religion is itself a social phenomenon, it can't be separated completely from any other social phenomenon of the same time and place.

The belief in reincarnation and in karma can become the gross and systemic oppression, and the gross and systemic privelege, which is the caste system. The belief in samsara, and karma, is directly opposed to "all are born equal" because it provides a (spurious) excuse for the injustice of some being born to poor parents while others are born to rich parents. The child is guilty, at birth or even before, and deserves the parent they have. If they are at a disadvantage from birth it's because they deserve it for something they did before, and if they're advantaged at birth it's because they deserve it for something they did before. That is gross injustice, over generations, and cannot be justified by any rational belief. Only by a religious belief.

India's central government has long since renounced the caste system. It's actually illegal to discriminate on grounds of caste, but it still happens. Some blame should go to the democratic government of India and the democratic governments of India's states, that they haven't yet effectively negated the caste system. But blame for the existence of that system in the first place must go to religion, and Hinduism in particular.

[Imperializt Russia]

Firstly, I am suspicious that the "orders" of some villagers are being reported as a "village court order". I'm imagining a club of fat old men, getting together quarterly to bitch about shit they don't like but can't really do anything about, one of them shouts out "rape his sisters" and the others are like "Rape? Rape! LOL!"

I'm about 85% sure this is exactly what the "village court" is.

[AiliailiA]

"Absolutely unacceptable" is dead right. Posts which are "absolutely unacceptable" deserves a Warning.

It is also a bad example for the rest of the player base. For a Moderator to "set a bad example" is an aggravation of the offence. If you're implying that Moderators should be held to a higher standard than other posters, I absolutely agree.

Considering the spotless record, it remains spotless because the moderation team don't have the guts to give Katganistan what she so richly deserves. A Warning with the red text and the black outline.

Take it to moderation.

In my personal opinion a "12+ year spotless record" is worth "unofficial warning".

You tell me I should take it to moderation, but then reply to me anyway with your "personal opinion".

Well that was my personal opinion on LA's moderator action, and I expressed it here rather than the moderation forum because the only way forward in moderation is an Official Appeal of the decision. Which I'm not going to do.

I have an opinion about that decision, and you do too. Don't claim the moral high ground.

[Imperializt Russia]

I didn't take a moral high ground.
As evidenced by the fact that, technically, I contributed to it. And still am.

All I did was put out a pointer.

[Gauthier]

When Todd Akin coined the term "legitimate rape" I don't think he had this in mind.

Okay, more seriously it's just a tragedy that rural life can be an isolated dystopia.

[AiliailiA]

Firstly, I am suspicious that the "orders" of some villagers are being reported as a "village court order". I'm imagining a club of fat old men, getting together quarterly to bitch about shit they don't like but can't really do anything about, one of them shouts out "rape his sisters" and the others are like "Rape? Rape! LOL!"

I'm about 85% sure this is exactly what the "village court" is.

I hope this doesn't sound cynical, but I think democracy and free speech are largely about "blowing off steam" and they promote a peaceful society by defusing what could become deadly conflicts, with a lot of hot air. More talk, less action, which is bad if you want a bridge built but good if you want to stop a pogrom.

[Imperializt Russia]

I'm about 85% sure this is exactly what the "village court" is.

I hope this doesn't sound cynical, but I think democracy and free speech are largely about "blowing off steam" and they promote a peaceful society by defusing what could become deadly conflicts, with a lot of hot air. More talk, less action, which is bad if you want a bridge built but good if you want to stop a pogrom.

The more participation I've had with politics over the last few years, the more ambivalent I've been about the downsides of pogrom, I'll be brutally honest.

[Lordieth]

India should be sending the people who run these courts to prison. This is what vigilantism looks like in a country where rape is an epidemic.

[MERIZoC]

Unacceptable that the central government hasn't done anything to prevent this yet.

[Zeinbrad]

Unacceptable that the central government hasn't done anything to prevent this yet.

If you listened to Nightkill (Who's Indian and lives in Mumbai) this shit is illegal.

The Indian Police is also fairly corrupt according to him.

[Imperializt Russia]

Unacceptable that the central government hasn't done anything to prevent this yet.

If you listened to Nightkill (Who's Indian and lives in Mumbai) this shit is illegal.

The Indian Police is also fairly corrupt according to him.

I don't think we need "according to Nightkill" for that, sadly.

[Zeinbrad]

If you listened to Nightkill (Who's Indian and lives in Mumbai) this shit is illegal.

The Indian Police is also fairly corrupt according to him.

I don't think we need "according to Nightkill" for that, sadly.

According to Nightkill, we do.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

The problem isn't any religion, it is an inherently sexist and discriminatory social structure that religion has traditionally been the justification for.

[Gauthier]

It's like the Far Side cartoon on the Equestrian Medicine Book, but instead of listing various ailments with all of the remedies being "Shoot," it's a list of various legal troubles involving women with all of the resolutions being "Rape".

[Anglo-Saxon North America]

How totally barbaric.
Sounds like a culture in desperate need of self-policing. Some level of armed intervention ought to come from the community

[Imperializt Russia]

How totally barbaric.
Sounds like a culture in desperate need of self-policing. Some level of armed intervention ought to come from the community

I'm going to assume you're being some kind of trope, since "some level of armed intervention" was what the community proposed doing.