is free trade capitalism the only ethical path to developmen

[Jute]

Germany's state does far more than that.

Germany is only number 16 on the economic freedom index, also they just recently implemented a minimum wage.

Also:


There does seem to be a distinction.

Neoliberalism may have had a different connotation at the time Walter Eucken wrote that book, maybe the person who wrote that part of the wiki page is misinterpreting something, I don't know how to explain that. Most of the time early Neoliberalism is synonymous with Ordoliberalism.

Which is what I meant, that the state interferes more in Germany than just what you said?
Also, since when is a kind of social liberalism synonymous with neoliberalism, which argues for a different kind of economy, with little state interference?

[New Werpland]

Germany is only number 16 on the economic freedom index, also they just recently implemented a minimum wage.

Neoliberalism may have had a different connotation at the time Walter Eucken wrote that book, maybe the person who wrote that part of the wiki page is misinterpreting something, I don't know how to explain that. Most of the time early Neoliberalism is synonymous with Ordoliberalism.

Which is what I meant, that the state interferes more in Germany than just what you said?

Well of course it interferes more than what I said, I was exaggerating how little the German state interferes with the market.

Also, since when is a kind of social liberalism synonymous with neoliberalism, which argues for a different kind of economy, with little state interference?

Neoliberalism (in it's original true Ordoliberal form) is not an argument against the mixed market. The Social Market Economy(of which the Ordoliberals devised) included systems of state social insurance in certain industries, the existence of which makes the market "mixed", not "free".

[Death Metal]

Germany is only number 16 on the economic freedom index, also they just recently implemented a minimum wage.

And 25% of Singapore's private sector is at least partially owned by the government, your point?

[New Werpland]

Germany is only number 16 on the economic freedom index, also they just recently implemented a minimum wage.

And 25% of Singapore's private sector is at least partially owned by the government, your point?

My point is that Germany isn't the most economically regulated of countries. And State Capitalism(like in Singapore) doesn't always necessitate a lack of economic freedom.

No need to be snarky.

[Death Metal]

And 25% of Singapore's private sector is at least partially owned by the government, your point?

My point is that Germany isn't the most economically regulated of countries. And State Capitalism(like in Singapore) doesn't always necessitate a lack of economic freedom.

No need to be snarky.

When a government fails to regulate itself, that usually tends to mean less freedom, not more. Civilly and economically.

Things like that is how shit like East India Trading Company start.

Heritage isn't exactly a reliable metric is what I'm saying here. Especially since they pretty much use two metrics- that is, regulation and taxation- neither of which are indicative of economic freedom unless you happen to be chair a Fortune 500 company.

[New Werpland]

My point is that Germany isn't the most economically regulated of countries. And State Capitalism(like in Singapore) doesn't always necessitate a lack of economic freedom.

No need to be snarky.

When a government fails to regulate itself, that usually tends to mean less freedom, not more. Civilly and economically.

Things like that is how shit like East India Trading Company start.

Heritage isn't exactly a reliable metric is what I'm saying here. Especially since they pretty much use two metrics- that is, regulation and taxation- neither of which are indicative of economic freedom unless you happen to be chair a Fortune 500 company.

Oh, well do you have a better metric?

[Death Metal]

When a government fails to regulate itself, that usually tends to mean less freedom, not more. Civilly and economically.

Things like that is how shit like East India Trading Company start.

Heritage isn't exactly a reliable metric is what I'm saying here. Especially since they pretty much use two metrics- that is, regulation and taxation- neither of which are indicative of economic freedom unless you happen to be chair a Fortune 500 company.

Oh, well do you have a better metric?

As in do I have a better idea of how to measure economic freedom for the working class, or can I cite a better source?

Because the latter is a no because they use the same methods as Heritage.

The former would be a method based on income equality, educational affordability and quality, consumer protection, cost of entrepreneurial startup, and employment, among other myriad nonbinary factors.

But groups like Heritage are just tax-deductable brochures for CEOs, so why would they even bother thinking of the working class?

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

Only if we're using trading sticks.

[New Werpland]

Oh, well do you have a better metric?

As in do I have a better idea of how to measure economic freedom for the working class, or can I cite a better source?

Because the latter is a no because they use the same methods as Heritage.

The former would be a method based on income equality, educational affordability and quality, consumer protection, cost of entrepreneurial startup, and employment, among other myriad nonbinary factors.

But groups like Heritage are just tax-deductable brochures for CEOs, so why would they even bother thinking of the working class?

We already have the IHDI, can't you use that? Although I only required a metric that could portray Germany's economic liberalism.

[Zoscua]

I wouldn't disagree with you if you wanted to say that neoliberal is a vague and overused term thrown about pejoratively at anything considered to be too right-wing, but I think it does serve a purpose to describe the ideological shifts towards more liberalized markets, and privatization that occurred in the 70s/80s/90s, particularly with regards to international finance and development.

Conflating it with ordoliberalism I think is a mistake, because that seems to apply more to a specific socio-economic model advanced by figures like Adenauer, which predates what is typically described as neoliberal.

I'm saying that Neoliberalism originaly was synonymous with Ordoliberalism, the term existed before the 80s.

Fair enough I suppose, but terms change. For example, libertarian used to be synonymous with anti-statist socialism.

[Death Metal]

Although I was looking for a metric that could be used to measure economic liberalism.

Well certainly not economic conservative groups like Heritage!

Though now that you mention it the IDHI is your best bet.

[New Werpland]

Although I was looking for a metric that could be used to measure economic liberalism.

Well certainly not economic conservative groups like Heritage!

Though now that you mention it the IDHI is your best bet.

I'll be more clear, I want a metric that can be used to measure free market-ness.

[Death Metal]

Well certainly not economic conservative groups like Heritage!

Though now that you mention it the IDHI is your best bet.

I'll be more clear, I want a metric that can be used to measure free market-ness.

Real free markets, IDHI.
Corporate-dominated "free" markets, Heritage.

[New Werpland]

I'll be more clear, I want a metric that can be used to measure free market-ness.

Real free markets, IDHI.
Corporate-dominated "free" markets, Heritage.

No

Welfare (wellbeing not redistribution) = IHDI
Freedom = heritage