The real face of the European Union.

[Byzantium Imperial]

They did get 86 billion and they keep asking for more. Where is all that money going?

Wherever it was preprogrammed to go.

Well that isn't going well now is it? They are going to need evern more money by 2018. How did Europe manage to transform Greece into such an intractable sinkhole? Where the hell is all the money going???

[The ISCA]

Okay. If only because you no longer feel familiarized with the governing actors and they are now removed from your ingroup, dislike of centralization is acceptable. An economic version of the Union would be also acceptable, though in the future, for resolving disputes and enforcing human rights, they'll have to find someone to do it- perhaps a stronger Council of Europe.

I think you might be missing the entire point of the upsurge in anti-eu feelings if you think that. More enforcement is exactly the opposite of what is wanted.

Whether its needed is another argument entirely

I ignore the crowds mindlessly calling for a unilateral end to something unless their demands are supportable and they aren't xenophobic pukes.

Wherever it was preprogrammed to go.

Well that isn't going well now is it? They are going to need evern more money by 2018. How did Europe manage to transform Greece into such an intractable sinkhole? Where the hell is all the money going???

Obviously not. Their economy is falling apart and the bank run fun seems to have only been postponed. I don't know where the money went. However, it appears that too much of the Greek GDP was dependent on government spending, so when that collapsed, so did their economy.

[Neutraligon]

Wherever it was preprogrammed to go.

Well that isn't going well now is it? They are going to need evern more money by 2018. How did Europe manage to transform Greece into such an intractable sinkhole? Where the hell is all the money going???

Truth be told I am not sure Greece should ever have entered the Union. I do not think they were economically ready to do so.

[Empire of Zeeland]

I dislike the Euro currency. I hate how the EU forces nations to cut spending.
I'm for a balanced budget bit i'm against higher taxes and the Minister President saying that you should buy a new car or home that is just a stupid statement.

Explain to me how you can have an economic block without having a unified currency. How is the EU forcing the cut of spending if the nations did not agree to it (I am excluding Greece right now). How is the Eu forcing your country to have higher taxes it is there choice to agree to the pact and their choice on how to reach it.

It's because the defecit must be under 3% if it's not the nations will get a warning or a fine of billions.

[The ISCA]

Well that isn't going well now is it? They are going to need evern more money by 2018. How did Europe manage to transform Greece into such an intractable sinkhole? Where the hell is all the money going???

Truth be told I am not sure Greece should ever have entered the Union. I do not think they were economically ready to do so.

I believe I've heard of that statement before. Why weren't they ready?

[Neutraligon]

Explain to me how you can have an economic block without having a unified currency. How is the EU forcing the cut of spending if the nations did not agree to it (I am excluding Greece right now). How is the Eu forcing your country to have higher taxes it is there choice to agree to the pact and their choice on how to reach it.

It's because the defecit must be under 3% if it's not the nations will get a warning or a fine of billions.

And again, they agreed to this.

[Byzantium Imperial]

I think you might be missing the entire point of the upsurge in anti-eu feelings if you think that. More enforcement is exactly the opposite of what is wanted.

Whether its needed is another argument entirely

I ignore the crowds mindlessly calling for a unilateral end to something unless their demands are supportable and they aren't xenophobic pukes.

Given they are in the majority, I hope you realize that making Europe into a single country means you will be governed by their desires?

Well that isn't going well now is it? They are going to need evern more money by 2018. How did Europe manage to transform Greece into such an intractable sinkhole? Where the hell is all the money going???

Obviously not. Their economy is falling apart and the bank run fun seems to have only been postponed. I don't know where the money went. However, it appears that too much of the Greek GDP was dependent on government spending, so when that collapsed, so did their economy.

Agreed

Truth be told I am not sure Greece should ever have entered the Union. I do not think they were economically ready to do so.

I believe I've heard of that statement before. Why weren't they ready?

Depends, are we talking about the Euro or the European Union? If its the later, then I dont really see why it would make a difference

[Empire of Zeeland]

Truth be told I am not sure Greece should ever have entered the Union. I do not think they were economically ready to do so.

I believe I've heard of that statement before. Why weren't they ready?

They lied about the defecit and other important economic statements.

[The ISCA]

I ignore the crowds mindlessly calling for a unilateral end to something unless their demands are supportable and they aren't xenophobic pukes.

Given they are in the majority, I hope you realize that making Europe into a single country means you will be governed by their desires?

Obviously not. Their economy is falling apart and the bank run fun seems to have only been postponed. I don't know where the money went. However, it appears that too much of the Greek GDP was dependent on government spending, so when that collapsed, so did their economy.

Agreed

I realize that the people will do what they can to impose their will in any country, a hypothetical pan-European nationstate included.

[Neutraligon]

Truth be told I am not sure Greece should ever have entered the Union. I do not think they were economically ready to do so.

I believe I've heard of that statement before. Why weren't they ready?

Because economically they were not able to keep up with the rest of the EU. I am trying to find it, but if I recall correctly when unifying a currency, those places that are less well off tend to keep doing significantly worse then those that are are better well off (ie a unified currency exacerbates existing problems). That and a unified currency means that Greece lacks the ability to make certain economic decisions that they would otherwise have been able to make (like devaluing their currency). Greece was economically just not ready for a currency they were unable to control themselves.

[The ISCA]

I believe I've heard of that statement before. Why weren't they ready?

They lied about the defecit and other important economic statements.

Ah, economic dishonesty. Shame the EU didn't check the veracity of their claims.

I believe I've heard of that statement before. Why weren't they ready?

Because economically they were not able to keep up with the rest of the EU. I am trying to find it, but if I recall correctly when unifying a currency, those places that are less well off tend to keep doing significantly worse then those that are are better well off (ie a unified currency exacerbates existing problems). That and a unified currency means that Greece lacks the ability to make certain economic decisions that they would otherwise have been able to make (like devaluing their currency). Greece was economically just not ready for a currency they were unable to control themselves.

A grave mistake on their part to rush into it, indeed.

[Dortmundia]

Yes there is much more. The european nationstates we will lose all our independence and freedom.

The whole idea of the EU is based on the idea of European citizens being able to travel from state to state, free from passports and most standard border restrictions.

That's pretty much the sine qua none of an open society.

You know, you can have that without being in the EU? Last time I cheched Sweitzerland and Norway are members despite not being in the EU.

[Kvatchdom]

If EU was a country at the moment, it would be the most economically and politically powerful one right now. Our people have the best life quality in the world. Just because one part of this Union is unable to support itself, does not mean the EU is a scam. Everything can be fixed with time and pragmatism.

[Dortmundia]

By the European parliament.

So the problem is that the European parliment can't overturn laws created by the European Commision... A group which is entirely appointed by said parliament. I fail to see what the probelm here is.

That is not the way how the EC is appointed. The EC is first proposed by the Europan council (also the summit of all heads of states/governments of all EU members) taking into account the election results to the EU parliament. Than the Parliament confirms or rejected the proposed Commision.

[Empire of Zeeland]

If EU was a country at the moment, it would be the most economically and politically powerful one right now. Our people have the best life quality in the world. Just because one part of this Union is unable to support itself, does not mean the EU is a scam. Everything can be fixed with time and pragmatism.

The Netherlands has to pay billions to the EU with barely any representation. No taxtion without proper representation.

[Kvatchdom]

If EU was a country at the moment, it would be the most economically and politically powerful one right now. Our people have the best life quality in the world. Just because one part of this Union is unable to support itself, does not mean the EU is a scam. Everything can be fixed with time and pragmatism.

The Netherlands has to pay billions to the EU with barely any representation. No taxtion without proper representation.

It isn't about representation, it's about unity and stability.

[Alyakia]

If EU was a country at the moment, it would be the most economically and politically powerful one right now. Our people have the best life quality in the world. Just because one part of this Union is unable to support itself, does not mean the EU is a scam. Everything can be fixed with time and pragmatism.

The Netherlands has to pay billions to the EU with barely any representation. No taxtion without proper representation.

but you do get representation. more than the 13 colonies did.

[Dortmundia]

If EU was a country at the moment, it would be the most economically and politically powerful one right now. Our people have the best life quality in the world. Just because one part of this Union is unable to support itself, does not mean the EU is a scam. Everything can be fixed with time and pragmatism.

The Netherlands has to pay billions to the EU with barely any representation. No taxtion without proper representation.

Netherland also created the monster. Let them now enjoy their problem. After all the things it has done to some Eu member candidates nobody cares for it.

[Empire of Zeeland]

The Netherlands has to pay billions to the EU with barely any representation. No taxtion without proper representation.

but you do get representation. more than the 13 colonies did.

Yes but we are not americans, we don't all have guns and have slavery while saying every is equal in the constititution.

[Neutraligon]

but you do get representation. more than the 13 colonies did.

Yes but we are not americans, we don't all have guns and have slavery while saying every is equal in the constititution.

...Non-sequitur much.

[Empire of Zeeland]

Yes but we are not americans, we don't all have guns and have slavery while saying every is equal in the constititution.

...Non-sequitur much.

Excuse me what do you mean?

[Aurinsula]

Why should Brabant, Holland, Frisia, and Utrecht be united in a Dutch nation when they were independent for centuries?

Because they choose to form a nation called the Netherlands and they had a shared history.

And yet the countries in Europe voted to form a super-national union called the European Union, and they certainly have a shared history. Why is one wrong and the other right?

[Byzantium Imperial]

Because they choose to form a nation called the Netherlands and they had a shared history.

And yet the countries in Europe voted to form a super-national union called the European Union, and they certainly have a shared history. Why is one wrong and the other right?

Maybe shared history is not the greatest argument for the EU......

[Ifreann]

And as we all know, federal states are defined by people having the same light bulbs and long bank account numbers.

The european people would never accept losing independence to become a province in a european empire.

They can take our lives, but they'll never take our light bulbs and shorter bank account numbers!

[Byzantium Imperial]

The european people would never accept losing independence to become a province in a european empire.

They can take our lives, but they'll never take our light bulbs and shorter bank account numbers!

"Hear hear!"