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A musing about intelligence and rights.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Which scientist do you agree with?

Scientist A
80
76%
Scientist B
16
15%
Neither
9
9%
 
Total votes : 105

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Dagyon
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A musing about intelligence and rights.

Postby Dagyon » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:27 pm

So, before I delve into the scenario itself, I'll set forth a few definitions so that we're all on the same page (all definitions taken from the Oxford U.S. English dictionary):

Intelligence:
noun
1 The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills

Speech:
noun
1 The expression of or the ability to express thoughts and feelings by articulate sounds

Now, with those taken care of, I'll launch into a bit of background; I was actually talking with one of my classmates in my A.P.E.S class (Advanced Placement Environmental Science, for those of you not familiar with the AP program here in the U.S.) while we were reading up on human rights and needs when a hypothetical scenario popped into my mind:

Say, in a laboratory somewhere, two scientists have managed to genetically engineer an intelligent creature, which for the sake of consistency is a gryphon, capable of human speech and forming independent thoughts. For the first year or two of its existence, the gryphon is given a basic education up to a sixth grade level in reading, maths, and history.

Up until this point, the two scientists have been simply teaching and observing the gryphon. After two more years, the scientists come to a conflict of interest: Scientist A wishes to treat the gryphon as a human being, entitled to the same human rights laid out in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, based on it's intelligence and capacity for expression of thought (i.e. speech), while Scientist B views the gryphon as property because it was created as part of an experiment and thus is subject to whatever tests the scientists wish to perform, regardless of its intelligence.

Now, my question to you all is: Which scientist would you support in this argument? Is Scientist A right for citing intelligence and capability of speech as an argument for human rights, or is Scientist B correct for saying that the gryphon is property because they created it, and thus subject to whatever its owners require?
Last edited by Dagyon on Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MERIZoC
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Postby MERIZoC » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:29 pm

My parents created me. I am not their property.

Scientist A wins it. Not a terribly complex or intriguing thought experiment.

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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:31 pm

Merizoc wrote:My parents created me. I am not their property.

Scientist A wins it. Not a terribly complex or intriguing thought experiment.


Nope.

A better one would be experimenting on an extraterrestrial during an alien war where the aliens have shown no compunctions with experimenting on captured humans without ethical concern.
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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:36 pm

Scientist A is in the right, Scientist B has a seriously fucked code of ethics.
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Russels Orbiting Teapot
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Postby Russels Orbiting Teapot » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:42 pm

Scientist A is obviously correct. Scientist B needs to retake ethics.

If we don't base our regard for others on something like intelligence and awareness, then it's just chauvanism.

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Keyboard Warriors
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Postby Keyboard Warriors » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:44 pm

Legally speaking, isn't neither scientist correct?
Yes.

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Godular
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Postby Godular » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:46 pm

Scientist A.

Entertainingly, I would also use this precise same logic to state that an intelligent and self-aware computer should also have the same rights.
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:47 pm

How does the gryphon feel about it and what sort of experiments are they thinking of doing?
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MERIZoC
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Postby MERIZoC » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:53 pm

Keyboard Warriors wrote:Legally speaking, isn't neither scientist correct?

Bringing already-written laws into an ethics debate is idiotic.

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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:56 pm

Merizoc wrote:
Keyboard Warriors wrote:Legally speaking, isn't neither scientist correct?

Bringing already-written laws into an ethics debate is idiotic.


Well, it's at least narrow-minded and insipid, because laws can be changed, especially when something like a talking gryphon is part of the equation.

If they'd created a hot mermaid, this thread wouldn't even be posted on here because there's no discussion to be had.
Last edited by The Rich Port on Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nilla Wayfarers
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Postby Nilla Wayfarers » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:58 pm

Scientist A is going to win by a landslide, unless someone without and sense of ethos states their opinion. Based on this scenario, it's basically a human.

However, I strongly disagree with genetic engineering of this kind, so I denounce both scientists for pursuing such interests.
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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:59 pm

Nilla Wayfarers wrote:Scientist A is going to win by a landslide, unless someone without and sense of ethos states their opinion. Based on this scenario, it's basically a human.

However, I strongly disagree with genetic engineering of this kind, so I denounce both scientists for pursuing such interests.


Or, you know, a government steps in.

... Why? They did something amazing.
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Nilla Wayfarers
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Postby Nilla Wayfarers » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:02 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Nilla Wayfarers wrote:Scientist A is going to win by a landslide, unless someone without and sense of ethos states their opinion. Based on this scenario, it's basically a human.

However, I strongly disagree with genetic engineering of this kind, so I denounce both scientists for pursuing such interests.


Or, you know, a government steps in.

... Why? They did something amazing.

By that I meant here, on this thread. Scientist A wins here.

I just am unnerved by the creation of a new species of intelligence that was meant to exist only in fairy tales. It's similar to bringing back dinosaurs (or if you don't want to think about a Jurassic Park scenario, then any long-extinct species), which through evolution and natural selection weren't meant to exist today.
Last edited by Nilla Wayfarers on Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Saint Kitten
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Postby Saint Kitten » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:03 pm

Scientist B missed his class in ethics it seems.
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May Mays
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Postby May Mays » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:03 pm

Well that depends on if the Gryphon exhibits self awareness or not.

Is it just regurgitating everything taught, and also forming new opinions based on this information?
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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:12 pm

Nilla Wayfarers wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
Or, you know, a government steps in.

... Why? They did something amazing.

By that I meant here, on this thread. Scientist A wins here.

I just am unnerved by the creation of a new species of intelligence that was meant to exist only in fairy tales. It's similar to bringing back dinosaurs (or if you don't want to think about a Jurassic Park scenario, then any long-extinct species), which through evolution and natural selection weren't meant to exist today.


Really, that's your problem?

I'd be more worried with the government weaponising gryphons or mermaids, which is why I brought that up.

But that can be easily remedied through educating the public about science and prohibiting the weaponisation of these creations... You know, like they do nowadays with chemical and biological weapons... Except the government is allowed to do it.

There's no inherent problem with bringing back long-extinct species. God knows what discoveries we could make from their genetics, from their physiology, from their anatomy.

May Mays wrote:Well that depends on if the Gryphon exhibits self awareness or not.

Is it just regurgitating everything taught, and also forming new opinions based on this information?


This is a hypothetical, so yes.
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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:16 pm

Merizoc wrote:My parents created me. I am not their property.

Scientist A wins it. Not a terribly complex or intriguing thought experiment.


Pretty much, although too many people in this world fail to realize that children are not their parents' property.
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Nilla Wayfarers
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Postby Nilla Wayfarers » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:16 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Nilla Wayfarers wrote:By that I meant here, on this thread. Scientist A wins here.

I just am unnerved by the creation of a new species of intelligence that was meant to exist only in fairy tales. It's similar to bringing back dinosaurs (or if you don't want to think about a Jurassic Park scenario, then any long-extinct species), which through evolution and natural selection weren't meant to exist today.


Really, that's your problem?

I'd be more worried with the government weaponising gryphons or mermaids, which is why I brought that up.

But that can be easily remedied through educating the public about science and prohibiting the weaponisation of these creations... You know, like they do nowadays with chemical and biological weapons... Except the government is allowed to do it.

There's no inherent problem with bringing back long-extinct species. God knows what discoveries we could make from their genetics, from their physiology, from their anatomy.

I agree weaponization would be a serious problem, but to allow scientists to pursue such experiments brings them ever closer to implementing those valuable discoveries on human beings. Then we'd have a serious problem with weaponization, with the possibility of whole armies of f***ing Captain Americas.
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Sun Wukong
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Postby Sun Wukong » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:17 pm

This sounds very much like a highschool level debate class assignment.
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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:19 pm

Nilla Wayfarers wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
Really, that's your problem?

I'd be more worried with the government weaponising gryphons or mermaids, which is why I brought that up.

But that can be easily remedied through educating the public about science and prohibiting the weaponisation of these creations... You know, like they do nowadays with chemical and biological weapons... Except the government is allowed to do it.

There's no inherent problem with bringing back long-extinct species. God knows what discoveries we could make from their genetics, from their physiology, from their anatomy.

I agree weaponization would be a serious problem, but to allow scientists to pursue such experiments brings them ever closer to implementing those valuable discoveries on human beings. Then we'd have a serious problem with weaponization, with the possibility of whole armies of f***ing Captain Americas.


That's a problem of regulating the government, not the scientists.

And really, even weaponisation isn't an argument against that, because, what, are we supposed to just stop researching things?

We discovered the atom and learned many invaluable things about many things, but that also led to the creation of nuclear bombs. Should we have never discovered the atom?

Honestly, I don't think we have a say in it. We will discover things, whether we want to or not. Science cannot be impeded... Save by the extremely ignorant.
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Nilla Wayfarers
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Postby Nilla Wayfarers » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:19 pm

Sun Wukong wrote:This sounds very much like a highschool level debate class assignment.

I actually had to do research and argue why it's a good thing to bring back "animals that humans hunted off." There are actually very few, since ones like mammoths died more from climate change than from human intervention, and many modern species going the way of the dodo aren't being hunted, just destroyed.
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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:22 pm

May Mays wrote:Is it just regurgitating everything taught, and also forming new opinions based on this information?


How is this any different from humans?

I like to make the analogy of comparing a child pretending to bake a cake, with pretend ingredients and utensils and equipment, and that progressing through the years to an actual professional baker baking a cake. Sure, at the start, the kid is clearly imitating (though this is arguably itself a sign of intelligence), but as time goes on, the imitations get more accurate, until, voila, the kid is actually an adult baking cakes professionally. But nobody would argue that the person in question is imitating baking a cake for a living.
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Nilla Wayfarers
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Postby Nilla Wayfarers » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:22 pm

The Rich Port wrote:
Nilla Wayfarers wrote:I agree weaponization would be a serious problem, but to allow scientists to pursue such experiments brings them ever closer to implementing those valuable discoveries on human beings. Then we'd have a serious problem with weaponization, with the possibility of whole armies of f***ing Captain Americas.


That's a problem of regulating the government, not the scientists.

And really, even weaponisation isn't an argument against that, because, what, are we supposed to just stop researching things?

We discovered the atom and learned many invaluable things about many things, but that also led to the creation of nuclear bombs. Should we have never discovered the atom?

Honestly, I don't think we have a say in it. We will discover things, whether we want to or not. Science cannot be impeded... Save by the extremely ignorant.

I suppose the sciences should be free to study and learn however is necessary, but I'm just wary of implementation of findings like those.
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The Cobalt Sky
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Postby The Cobalt Sky » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:24 pm

Has anyone else wondered if there's planned parenthood for something like this?
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May Mays
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Postby May Mays » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:24 pm

Grenartia wrote:
May Mays wrote:Is it just regurgitating everything taught, and also forming new opinions based on this information?


How is this any different from humans?

I like to make the analogy of comparing a child pretending to bake a cake, with pretend ingredients and utensils and equipment, and that progressing through the years to an actual professional baker baking a cake. Sure, at the start, the kid is clearly imitating (though this is arguably itself a sign of intelligence), but as time goes on, the imitations get more accurate, until, voila, the kid is actually an adult baking cakes professionally. But nobody would argue that the person in question is imitating baking a cake for a living.

Well that's because you know for a fact that the baby, if not already self aware will become self aware very shortly.

I mean, with the information provided if scientist A is correct then IBM Watson deserves human rights.
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