Are the IRA Heroes?

[The Krogan]

Uh huh, You do that.

I myself prefer restraint.

Restraint doesn't work in all cases.

Neither does killing people.

[Benian Republic]

Restraint doesn't work in all cases.

Neither does killing people.

Worked pretty well during the troubles.

[Ikania]

Neither does killing people.

Worked pretty well during the troubles.

It resulted in universal hatred for the IRA, Northern Ireland remaining a part of the UK, and the militias disbanding and disarming.

Yeah, that worked really well, definitely worth the three decades of murder and terrorism.

[Benian Republic]

Worked pretty well during the troubles.

It resulted in universal hatred for the IRA, Northern Ireland remaining a part of the UK, and the militias disbanding and disarming.

Yeah, that worked really well, definitely worth the three decades of murder and terrorism.

That was because politicians don't have the stomach to continue when things get bloody. The catholic and nationalist minorities are now no longer second class citizens.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I'd love to see the arguments for the Taliban being freedom fighters.

They fight against detrimental Western intervention in their countries, yes? I'm not saying I support them, I'm saying the line between "freedom fighters" and "terrorists" isn't just thin, it's nonexistent.

Just depends what side you're on.

Not my problem, they're terrorists and thugs, and their sympathizers are equally reprehensible. It's tantamount to saying that Al-Qaeda wasn't right, but they weren't bad either. It's no different at all.

I wouldn't say that. I'd say their existence and reaction to Western imperialism is somewhat understandable, though.

[Hirota]

It resulted in universal hatred for the IRA, Northern Ireland remaining a part of the UK, and the militias disbanding and disarming.

Yeah, that worked really well, definitely worth the three decades of murder and terrorism.

That was because politicians don't have the stomach to continue when things get bloody. The catholic and nationalist minorities are now no longer second class citizens.

Are you sure you and Neo are not closer than you imagine?

[Benian Republic]

That was because politicians don't have the stomach to continue when things get bloody. The catholic and nationalist minorities are now no longer second class citizens.

Are you sure you and Neo are not closer than you imagine?

He is a national socialist I don't quite know what I am anymore.

[BK117B2]

Worked pretty well during the troubles.

It resulted in universal hatred for the IRA, Northern Ireland remaining a part of the UK, and the militias disbanding and disarming.

Yeah, that worked really well, definitely worth the three decades of murder and terrorism.

It resulted in much greater equality and protection of the rights of Catholics in Northern Ireland.

[Vallermoore]

To Benian Republic-I'm not going to flame or troll you, but do you support the IRA? And if so, which one? The first one, or the subsequent versions?

[Ardoki]

The tactics (means) are irrelevant, what is of more importance is the end result.

Marc, you're right. This guy is hilarious. We're talking about a goddamn war here, pretty fucking sure. Did you just ACTUALLY fucking say tactics are IRRELEVANT while discussing a WAR?

Ontop of just obscenely wrong that is, i mean, i have a massive ancient ass book called The Art of War in my home if you'd like to borrow it, just incase you really think that still. But, it does matter.

Infact. Name a war. Any war. I can tell you which side was evil based on their motives, used tactics, and the result of them.

We are not talking about a war. It was not a war, and it has never been classified as one.

[Ardoki]

That was because politicians don't have the stomach to continue when things get bloody. The catholic and nationalist minorities are now no longer second class citizens.

Are you sure you and Neo are not closer than you imagine?

Democratic and peaceful means were not working, and wouldn't have worked as the government made sure of that. Violent means were the only option left open, and they eventually worked.

[Ikania]

Are you sure you and Neo are not closer than you imagine?

Democratic and peaceful means were not working, and wouldn't have worked as the government made sure of that. Violent means were the only option left open, and they eventually worked.

But at what cost? I don't personally think it was worth it, all the innocent lives lost. If the PIRA had taken extra precautions not to kill innocents and act like soldiers instead of terrorists, I'd have some sympathy.

[Ardoki]

Democratic and peaceful means were not working, and wouldn't have worked as the government made sure of that. Violent means were the only option left open, and they eventually worked.

But at what cost? I don't personally think it was worth it, all the innocent lives lost. If the PIRA had taken extra precautions not to kill innocents and act like soldiers instead of terrorists, I'd have some sympathy.

Eventually the Catholics achieved some level of equality and freedom. It doesn't matter how it was achieved, only that it was finally achieved.

[Benian Republic]

To Benian Republic-I'm not going to flame or troll you, but do you support the IRA? And if so, which one? The first one, or the subsequent versions?

Yes I support the IRA, I support any group that seeks to united Ireland no matter the costs.

[Marcurix]

The tactics (means) are irrelevant, what is of more importance is the end result.

Only if you're going to make a very limited and flawed assertion on the events as a whole. That aside, you're not even taking the end result. You're taking part of it and making assertions there.

Or are you really going to assert death is the only consequence? What about those who lost relatives? Those injured? Economic damage?

Predictably this gets a lot more complicated than you make it out to be.

We are not talking about a war. It was not a war, and it has never been classified as one.

It was an armed conflict, like it or not tactics matter. It gives insight into what happened beyond the standard spreadsheet facts, and gives us room to make more accurate assertions about events.

[Ikania]

To Benian Republic-I'm not going to flame or troll you, but do you support the IRA? And if so, which one? The first one, or the subsequent versions?

Yes I support the IRA, I support any group that seeks to united Ireland no matter the costs.

I must ask, though- why? It's not like the people in the north want it. They're quite content being British.

[The Krogan]

But at what cost? I don't personally think it was worth it, all the innocent lives lost. If the PIRA had taken extra precautions not to kill innocents and act like soldiers instead of terrorists, I'd have some sympathy.

Eventually the Catholics achieved some level of equality and freedom. It doesn't matter how it was achieved, only that it was finally achieved.

As long as the material objective is achieved huh, I guess it doesn't matter if a persons humanity is lost along the way.

[The Krogan]

To Benian Republic-I'm not going to flame or troll you, but do you support the IRA? And if so, which one? The first one, or the subsequent versions?

Yes I support the IRA, I support any group that seeks to united Ireland no matter the costs.

If the cost was Ireland destroyed, it's people dead, and it's culture lost to history would you except that cost?

[Benian Republic]

Yes I support the IRA, I support any group that seeks to united Ireland no matter the costs.

I must ask, though- why? It's not like the people in the north want it. They're quite content being British.

They aren't Irish they are descended from the ukster plantations.

[Ardoki]

Yes I support the IRA, I support any group that seeks to united Ireland no matter the costs.

If the cost was Ireland destroyed, it's people dead, and it's culture lost to history would you except that cost?

Then Ireland wouldn't be united now, if it doesn't exist.

[Benian Republic]

Yes I support the IRA, I support any group that seeks to united Ireland no matter the costs.

If the cost was Ireland destroyed, it's people dead, and it's culture lost to history would you except that cost?

Except for that's not a realistic cost.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

As long as the material objective is achieved huh, I guess it doesn't matter if a persons humanity is lost along the way.

If that objective is human rights? I think it could be argued violence is justifiable.

[The Krogan]

As long as the material objective is achieved huh, I guess it doesn't matter if a persons humanity is lost along the way.

If that objective is human rights? I think it could be argued violence is justifiable.

So to fight for your own human rights, you will take away the rights of other humans, it's a contradiction of the goal that wants to be achieved.

By placing a bomb in a plaza, in the hopes of improving human rights for a certain population, and detonating it you are depriving those people killed in the blast of their own human rights.

Same if you kill in "enemy" soldier, if you have in your minds eye that by killing him you will improve your rights as a human being, you are creating something that just doesn't work and is not justifiable.

You will have to find another reason for killing the soldier and the people in that plaza, because to kill for your human rights, is depriving those same rights to another human being.

I.E. the right to life and all that jazz

[The Krogan]

If the cost was Ireland destroyed, it's people dead, and it's culture lost to history would you except that cost?

Except for that's not a realistic cost.

How is it not? If you're prepared to achieve a fully united Ireland at any cost, you bet everything you have in doing so.

When you will do anything to achieve your goal, those who you fight against will do anything to stop you from achieving it at any cost, if that means destroying a people and their culture they will.

You are trying to create a universal rule that allows for you to achieve your goals at any cost, which allows for others to use the same thing against you to achieve their own goals.

That can be the destruction of a people and it's culture if it is deemed the appropriate cost.

[Benian Republic]

Except for that's not a realistic cost.

How is it not? If you're prepared to achieve a fully united Ireland at any cost, you bet everything you have in doing so.

When you will do anything to achieve your goal, those who you fight against will do anything to stop you from achieving it at any cost, if that means destroying a people and their culture they will.

You are trying to create a universal rule that allows for you to achieve your goals at any cost, which allows for others to use the same thing against you to achieve their own goals.

That can be the destruction of a people and it's culture if it is deemed the appropriate cost.

The Irish people are unbeatable I have no doubt in my mind that we would eventually prevail.