Portuguese Colonial Wars

[Migas999]

oil $$$ for portugal and more exploitation for angola

Portugal did not need to keep Angola to get the oil since plenty of the oil is found in the small exclave of Kabinda which they could have kept. Same thing for Spain. They controlled Equatorial Guinea. They could have given independence to the mainland part of Equatorial Guinea but could have kept the small island of Fernando Poo. The waters off Fernando Poo is where the oil is found.

I did not know that, nor do I know if that was known at the time but probably not

[Arumdaum]

We're talking about the discovery of the Americas by the Old World (Europe, Middle East, North Africa, Asia). Everyone essentially knew India, China, etc were real, just didn't know a lot about them. Apart from the Norse, no one knew what lay beyond. Aaaand hate to break this to you, but the majority of human history, especially the most important bits - yeah happening in the Old World. Hence, using the term discovering the Americas.

Again, you're viewing the world through a eurocentric lens.

"Everyone essentially knew India, China, etc were real, just didn't know a lot about them."
^ What you mean is that Europeans essentially knew India, China, etc were real, just didn't know a lot about them.

Those in East Asia knew a huge amount about China. Those in Southeast Asia regularly traded with China and knew a lot about it. Those in India knew a huge amount about themselves. Those who participated in Indian Ocean trade knew a lot about India. This sentence, and the next shows that what you're not caring about is Afro-Eurasians "discovering" the Americas, but rather simply Europeans.

Despite the difficulties that come with being able to quantify "most of history" (we might as well begin and say that most history has occurred in Sub-Saharan Africa), important happenings and history length do not in any way somehow mean that the perspectives of tens of millions of Native Americans who already knew about the place they had been living in for their entire lives (and whose ancestors had lived there for over ten-thousand years) do not matter.

It's a ridiculous "I think I'm better so fuck y'all what you think doesn't matter" attitude toward Native Ameicans.

[Migas999]

We're talking about the discovery of the Americas by the Old World (Europe, Middle East, North Africa, Asia). Everyone essentially knew India, China, etc were real, just didn't know a lot about them. Apart from the Norse, no one knew what lay beyond. Aaaand hate to break this to you, but the majority of human history, especially the most important bits - yeah happening in the Old World. Hence, using the term discovering the Americas.

Again, you're viewing the world through a eurocentric lens.

"Everyone essentially knew India, China, etc were real, just didn't know a lot about them."
^ What you mean is that Europeans essentially knew India, China, etc were real, just didn't know a lot about them.

Those in East Asia knew a huge amount about China. Those in Southeast Asia regularly traded with China and knew a lot about it. Those in India knew a huge amount about themselves. Those who participated in Indian Ocean trade knew a lot about India. This sentence, and the next shows that what you're not caring about is Afro-Eurasians "discovering" the Americas, but rather simply Europeans.

Despite the difficulties that come with being able to quantify "most of history" (we might as well begin and say that most history has occurred in Sub-Saharan Africa), important happenings and history length do not in any way somehow mean that the perspectives of tens of millions of Native Americans who already knew about the place they had been living in for their entire lives (and whose ancestors had lived there for over ten-thousand years) do not matter.

It's a ridiculous "I think I'm better so fuck y'all what you think doesn't matter" attitude toward Native Ameicans.

And what we mean here is that Portugal and Spain were the first countries from the Old World to discover and make contact with these eastern civilizations, launching what was essentially the age of imperialism, international and global trade and colonialism

[Arumdaum]

Again, you're viewing the world through a eurocentric lens.

"Everyone essentially knew India, China, etc were real, just didn't know a lot about them."
^ What you mean is that Europeans essentially knew India, China, etc were real, just didn't know a lot about them.

Those in East Asia knew a huge amount about China. Those in Southeast Asia regularly traded with China and knew a lot about it. Those in India knew a huge amount about themselves. Those who participated in Indian Ocean trade knew a lot about India. This sentence, and the next shows that what you're not caring about is Afro-Eurasians "discovering" the Americas, but rather simply Europeans.

Despite the difficulties that come with being able to quantify "most of history" (we might as well begin and say that most history has occurred in Sub-Saharan Africa), important happenings and history length do not in any way somehow mean that the perspectives of tens of millions of Native Americans who already knew about the place they had been living in for their entire lives (and whose ancestors had lived there for over ten-thousand years) do not matter.

It's a ridiculous "I think I'm better so fuck y'all what you think doesn't matter" attitude toward Native Ameicans.

And what we mean here is that Portugal and Spain were the first countries from the Old World to discover and make contact with these eastern civilizations, launching what was essentially the age of imperialism, international and global trade and colonialism

omg wat

india and china are part of the old world

people living there knew themselves before anyone else

[Migas999]

And what we mean here is that Portugal and Spain were the first countries from the Old World to discover and make contact with these eastern civilizations, launching what was essentially the age of imperialism, international and global trade and colonialism

omg wat

india and china are part of the old world

people living there knew themselves before anyone else

Old World as in Europe, and the colonizers

[Arumdaum]

omg wat

india and china are part of the old world

people living there knew themselves before anyone else

Old World as in Europe, and the colonizers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_World

[Migas999]

And what we mean here is that Portugal and Spain were the first countries from the Old World to discover and make contact with these eastern civilizations, launching what was essentially the age of imperialism, international and global trade and colonialism

omg wat

india and china are part of the old world

people living there knew themselves before anyone else

We´re going in circles here, I mean the first nations(Portugal and Spain) to put those civilizations in european maps and subsquentely launch the greatest age of international and global trade, imperialism and colonialism
I´m not going to repeat this again

[Migas999]

Old World as in Europe, and the colonizers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_World

"regarded collectively as the part of the world known to Europeans before contact with the Americas"
Which means that the Portugal and Spain were the first nations to put Asian civilizations in contact with european civilizations

[Arumdaum]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_World

"regarded collectively as the part of the world known to Europeans before contact with the Americas"
Which means that the Portugal and Spain were the first nations to put Asian civilizations in contact with european civilizations

Huns

Mongols

Turks

Marco Polo

Silk Roads

[Migas999]

"regarded collectively as the part of the world known to Europeans before contact with the Americas"
Which means that the Portugal and Spain were the first nations to put Asian civilizations in contact with european civilizations

Huns

Mongols

Turks

Marco Polo

Silk Roads

Ok, then what the fuck do you consider that is the Age of Discovery that started in the XV century?

[Migas999]

"regarded collectively as the part of the world known to Europeans before contact with the Americas"
Which means that the Portugal and Spain were the first nations to put Asian civilizations in contact with european civilizations

Huns

Mongols

Turks

Marco Polo

Silk Roads

The first westerners is what I mean(when I refer to Portugal and Spain)

[Threlizdun]

Huns

Mongols

Turks

Marco Polo

Silk Roads

The first westerners is what I mean(when I refer to Portugal and Spain)

Marco Polo isn't a Westerner now?

[Migas999]

The first westerners is what I mean(when I refer to Portugal and Spain)

Marco Polo isn't a Westerner now?

Marco Polo´s travels were for a time one of the few sources of information about China and the East, I know Marco Polo is from Venice
Portugal and Spain added a lot more information to that by being the first european(westerners) to establish trading outposts and therefore launch an even larger age of global trade
Trading outposts were cities administered by europeans such as portuguese Goa and Macau, and Portugal and Spain were the first westerners to do things of that sort

[Old Tyrannia]

Attempting to hold on to its colonies in the 20th century was an unwise and ethically dubious policy on the part of Portugal. I do sympathise with the Estado Novo's attempt to maintain Portugal's independence as a world power without aligning themselves with either the US or the Soviets, but ultimately the colonial empire was doomed to failure and the effort to retain it a waste of life and money. It also led to the collapse of the Estado Novo, which is something of a shame in my opinion; Salazar was a pretty decent ruler as far as dictators go, and good friend to the United Kingdom, at least in the Second World War. Portugal subsequently gained political freedom but has suffered from terrible mismanagement ever since, not to pretend that Salazar's successors or even the man himself were always the most capable leaders.

[Migas999]

Attempting to hold on to its colonies in the 20th century was an unwise and ethically dubious policy on the part of Portugal. I do sympathise with the Estado Novo's attempt to maintain Portugal's independence as a world power without aligning themselves with either the US or the Soviets, but ultimately the colonial empire was doomed to failure and the effort to retain it a waste of life and money. It also led to the collapse of the Estado Novo, which is something of a shame in my opinion; Salazar was a pretty decent ruler as far as dictators go, and good friend to the United Kingdom, at least in the Second World War. Portugal subsequently gained political freedom but has suffered from terrible mismanagement ever since, not to pretend that Salazar's successors or even the man himself were always the most capable leaders.

You do know that Salazar cooperated plenty with the germans right, and even if he was a competent dictator he was a dictactor nonetheless and he had to fall, as for the mismanagement well there I agree with you Portugal´s politicians are pretty corrupt and led the country to financial disgrace

[Old Tyrannia]

You do know that Salazar cooperated plenty with the germans right,

Salazar avoided directly opposing the Germans, but this was useful to the Allies in the grand scheme of things because it helped to keep Spain neutral as well- as the British ambassador to Portugal in 1943 put it, "strict neutrality was the price the allies paid for strategic benefits accruing from Portugal's neutrality and that if her neutrality instead of being strict had been more benevolent in our favour Spain would inevitably have thrown herself body and soul into the arms of Germany. If this had happened the Peninsula would have been occupied and then North Africa, with the result that the whole course of the war would have been altered to the advantage of the Axis."

In practice Portugal did everything it could to aid the Allies in the war and Salazar personally disliked and distrusted Hitler and the Nazis. This is all fairly well established historical fact. The Portuguese allowed the Allies to establish airbases in the Azores in 1943. Salazar also very openly criticised the racial policies of Nazi Germany and allowed as many as a million refugees to escape Europe through Portugal during the war. Salazar was most certainly not on the Germans' side.

[Migas999]

You do know that Salazar cooperated plenty with the germans right,

Salazar avoided directly opposing the Germans, but this was useful to the Allies in the grand scheme of things because it helped to keep Spain neutral as well- as the British ambassador to Portugal in 1943 put it, "strict neutrality was the price the allies paid for strategic benefits accruing from Portugal's neutrality and that if her neutrality instead of being strict had been more benevolent in our favour Spain would inevitably have thrown herself body and soul into the arms of Germany. If this had happened the Peninsula would have been occupied and then North Africa, with the result that the whole course of the war would have been altered to the advantage of the Axis."

In practice Portugal did everything it could to aid the Allies in the war and Salazar personally disliked and distrusted Hitler and the Nazis. This is all fairly well established historical fact. The Portuguese allowed the Allies to establish airbases in the Azores in 1943. Salazar also very openly criticised the racial policies of Nazi Germany and allowed as many as a million refugees to escape Europe through Portugal during the war. Salazar was most certainly not on the Germans' side.

Never said he was on the germans side but he did sell them a considerable amount of tungsten and only stopped when the english gave him no choice same thing happened with the U-boats from germany he allowed them to dock in Azores and only stopped again when the english demanded so
Also you do know that mnay jews and refugees might have entered Portugal against Salazar´s wishes right? There was for example a consul in France named Aristides de Sousa Mendes who against Salazar´s stric orders issued thousands of visas so refugees could pass trough Spain and enter Portugal, when Salazar discovered this he stripped the consul of everything he had and left him to die in poverty as punishment for disobeing a direct order