NATION

PASSWORD

Is there too many immigrants in Europe?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Greater-London
Senator
 
Posts: 3791
Founded: Nov 30, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Greater-London » Thu May 28, 2015 12:11 pm

First of all I really hope that that's a post from the real Nicola Sturgeon.

First of all your states are wrong. 89% of the UK is white British, of the 11% that are either black, Asian or mixed race plenty of them are second or third generation immigrants - which makes them British by pretty much everyone's standards.

I wouldn't argue there are "too many" immigrants, the UK can take quite a lot more - and will need to if we want to beat Germany to that largest economy in Europe by 2050. However we have had very high levels of immigration over a short space of time and the infrastructure hasn't kept up.

It's widely accepted that immigrants are net contributors to the economy but whilst they may be funding the extra doctors, schools, trains ETC improving these takes time. For every 10 families that turn up in Boston you don't get a new primary school classroom or new GP for instance. Immigration needs to happen at a level where the infrastructure is given time to play catch up. Even if immigration has been to high - don't blame immigrants for overcrowded hospitals and schools, blame the politicians who encouraged them to come but didn't have foresight to invest in roads, houses or hospitals.

You've then also got to remember that immigrants take time to integrate too. There is a tendency for immigrant groups is to live with each other, talk in their native languages, not get involved in the excising community. This isn't "rudeness" or unwillingness these things just take time. If I was an immigrant in another country, I know at least to start with I would gravitate towards English people (certainly English speakers) because I would be nervous. However if you have high levels of immigration you end up with communities divided along cultural lines, not mixing ETC. You need to give arrivals time to become more involved into the existing community before you bring more people in. Otherwise you get division and people don't just fail to integrate they don't want to.

Immigration doesn't have to be a problem and when problems flag up as a result of immigration it is very rare its the immigrants fault. It's normally a cock up somewhere else along the line, a politician who thinks you can encorouge mass migration whilst you have over subscribed schools and a housing shortage. Regardless in the UK we need to reset the immigration debate, we used to accuse people who raised legitimate issues as racist; now we talk about nothing else and its getting boring. The most important thing to remember is that immigrants are people who were simply born elsewhere. This means they arent social pariahs NOR are they glorrious and beautiful people who can resolve all our problems.
Born in Cambridge in 1993, just graduated with a 2.1 in Politics and International Relations from the University of Manchester - WHICH IS SICK

PRO: British Unionism, Commonwealth, Liberalism, Federalism, Palestine, NHS, Decriminalizing Drugs, West Ham UTD , Garage Music &, Lager
ANTI: EU, Smoking Ban, Tuition Fees, Conservatism, Crypto-Fascist lefties, Hypocrisy, Religious Fanaticism, Religion Bashing & Armchair activists

Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.87

User avatar
Teemant
Senator
 
Posts: 4130
Founded: Oct 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Teemant » Thu May 28, 2015 12:11 pm

Mister B wrote:
Teemant wrote:
Legal immigrants and illegal immigrants are two different. All legal immigrants tend to work because otherwise they wouldn't be able to stay.


Illegal immigrants tend to work and not claim benefits because approaching the government of a country you are illegal living in is a very good way to get deported.


So you're claiming that once these boat immigrants step on the European soil they march straigth into a workplace and start working? This isn't the case.
Eesti
Latvija
Lietuva
Polska

User avatar
Lydenburg
Senator
 
Posts: 4592
Founded: May 20, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Lydenburg » Thu May 28, 2015 12:11 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Teemant wrote:
Things don't seem to improve one bit in Africa and it isn't Europe's fault anymore.

It's difficult to improve when you leave a pre-industrial backwater with a power vacuum.


While that may very well ring true for Burundi or the Congo, it certainly wasn't the case with RSA. Or to a lesser extent Zimbabwe.

Start the country off with all the industrial and infrastructural advantages in the world but corruption can still get the better of it in the end.

Ek bly in Australie nou, maar Afrika sal altyd in my hart wees. Maak nie saak wat gebeur nie, ek is trots om te kan sê ek is 'n kind van hierdie ingewikkelde soms wrede kontinent. Mis jou altyd my Suid-Afrika, hier met n seer hart al die pad van Melbourne af!


User avatar
Apollinis
Diplomat
 
Posts: 741
Founded: May 05, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Apollinis » Thu May 28, 2015 12:11 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Teemant wrote:
Things don't seem to improve one bit in Africa and it isn't Europe's fault anymore.

It's difficult to improve when you leave a pre-industrial backwater with a power vacuum.

And then continue to bilaterally flood it with weapons and despots for 30 years because "muh Cold War". That's not helpful either.
Basilîa Abolinis - a Greco-Germanic, federal, semi-stratocratic, socially libertarian, left-wing Orthodox absolute monarchy of around 568,267,000 people.
|IIWiki|Map|Language|

Economic left: -9.88
Social libertarian: -8.82
OOC - 19, Northern English, Uni student (History)
Pro: Environmentalism, self-determination, democratic socialism, social libertarianism, reform of drug laws, European federalism, LGBTQ, social equality
Anti: Imperialism, reaction, authoritarianism, sexism, racism, LGBTQ-phobia, religious fundamentalism, New Classical architecture

User avatar
Calimera II
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8790
Founded: Jan 03, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Calimera II » Thu May 28, 2015 12:13 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Calimera II wrote:
Europe will create more problems if it lets all those people in.

Which wouldn't be solving the cause of the problem that is there is a humanitarian crisis(es) in Africa and the Middle East, resulting from the long, long-term fallout of European colonialism and more recently the fallout of Cold War tensions - that is pushing people out of their countries and into destitute camps. And from there, they rightly think this is no life for them and wish to move to Europe.

Syria, as a country, is practically ruined. Destroyed. The image of lights at night taken from space is pretty telling to that. What of the millions of displaced Syrians? "Sucks to be you"?


There are also stable countries in the Middle East and Africa, you know.

User avatar
Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54847
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Thu May 28, 2015 12:13 pm

Lydenburg wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:It's difficult to improve when you leave a pre-industrial backwater with a power vacuum.


While that may very well ring true for Burundi or the Congo, it certainly wasn't the case with RSA. Or to a lesser extent Zimbabwe.

Start the country off with all the industrial and infrastructural advantages in the world but corruption can still get the better of it in the end.

Not all of them were, no. I was just quite stung by the "not our problem anymore" comment. We have a duty to fix what we royally fucked up.
Wasn't RSA one of the few countries to not undergo an industrial revolution because Britain simply imported industry to it?
Warning! This poster has:
PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

User avatar
Grave_n_idle
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44837
Founded: Feb 11, 2004
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Grave_n_idle » Thu May 28, 2015 12:14 pm

Teemant wrote:
Mister B wrote:
Illegal immigrants tend to work and not claim benefits because approaching the government of a country you are illegal living in is a very good way to get deported.


So you're claiming that once these boat immigrants step on the European soil they march straigth into a workplace and start working? This isn't the case.


Isn't it?

That should be an interesting one to prove. Go ahead.
I identify as
a problem

User avatar
Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54847
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Thu May 28, 2015 12:14 pm

Calimera II wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:Which wouldn't be solving the cause of the problem that is there is a humanitarian crisis(es) in Africa and the Middle East, resulting from the long, long-term fallout of European colonialism and more recently the fallout of Cold War tensions - that is pushing people out of their countries and into destitute camps. And from there, they rightly think this is no life for them and wish to move to Europe.

Syria, as a country, is practically ruined. Destroyed. The image of lights at night taken from space is pretty telling to that. What of the millions of displaced Syrians? "Sucks to be you"?


There are also stable countries in the Middle East and Africa, you know.

Not all of them were fucked about with by the colonial powers. Some also recovered.
Warning! This poster has:
PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

User avatar
Teemant
Senator
 
Posts: 4130
Founded: Oct 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Teemant » Thu May 28, 2015 12:15 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Lydenburg wrote:
While that may very well ring true for Burundi or the Congo, it certainly wasn't the case with RSA. Or to a lesser extent Zimbabwe.

Start the country off with all the industrial and infrastructural advantages in the world but corruption can still get the better of it in the end.

Not all of them were, no. I was just quite stung by the "not our problem anymore" comment. We have a duty to fix what we royally fucked up.
Wasn't RSA one of the few countries to not undergo an industrial revolution because Britain simply imported industry to it?


How can Europe fix it? Do you have any plans because sending aid hasn't worked and certainly hasn't helped African countries to develop into more advanced economies and societies.
Last edited by Teemant on Thu May 28, 2015 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eesti
Latvija
Lietuva
Polska

User avatar
The Derpy Dominion
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 360
Founded: Aug 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Derpy Dominion » Thu May 28, 2015 12:16 pm

Kick out the foreigners, Europe is for Europeans.
The Derpy Dominion is currently and will forever be run by Madame Derpy Hooves.
If you are looking for a third major faction to join in the war for Equestria, then look no further, Join the Dominion and fight against Lunar and Solar Tyranny.
Likes: Benevolent and Traditional Fascism, Egalitarianism, Logical Christianity, history, role-playing,Israel, Conservatism.
Dislikes: Hitler, Nazism, Communism, Socialism, Feminism, Extreme capitalism, Extreme Liberalism, Idiotic Conservatism, LGBT Extremists, militant atheism, Satanism, Palestine.
Don't understand something or need clarification on my likes and dislikes? Then feel free to ask
Also, I do not use NSTracker.

User avatar
Arcturus Novus
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6728
Founded: Dec 03, 2011
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Arcturus Novus » Thu May 28, 2015 12:16 pm

No. Immigration has raised birth rates and brought jobs. It isn't a bad thing.
Arcy (she/her), NS' fourth-favorite transsexual communist!
"I can fix her!" cool, I'm gonna make her worse.
me - my politics - my twitter
Nilokeras wrote:there is of course an interesting thread to pull on [...]
Unfortunately we're all forced to participate in whatever baroque humiliation kink the OP has going on instead.

User avatar
Teemant
Senator
 
Posts: 4130
Founded: Oct 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Teemant » Thu May 28, 2015 12:17 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Teemant wrote:
So you're claiming that once these boat immigrants step on the European soil they march straigth into a workplace and start working? This isn't the case.


Isn't it?

That should be an interesting one to prove. Go ahead.


He claimed that most illegal immigrants in Europe tend to work and don't claim benefits. Why the heck am I supposed to proof that they don't?
Eesti
Latvija
Lietuva
Polska

User avatar
Calimera II
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8790
Founded: Jan 03, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Calimera II » Thu May 28, 2015 12:17 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Calimera II wrote:
There are also stable countries in the Middle East and Africa, you know.

Not all of them were fucked about with by the colonial powers. Some also recovered.

True. Often they can solve problems of their neighboring countries better than we westerners.

User avatar
Sorgan
Senator
 
Posts: 3560
Founded: Jun 11, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Sorgan » Thu May 28, 2015 12:18 pm

Teemant wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:Europe is indirectly responsible, on a very long timescale, for problems in both Africa and the Middle East.


Things don't seem to improve one bit in Africa and it isn't Europe's fault anymore.

Oh no it's definitely still Europe's fault - just because time has passed doesn't mean its not Europe's fault anymore. There are other contributing factors of course but the enslavement, mass murder, and exploitation of the natives definitely has a big part in why things are the way they are.

I've always thought the idea of treating people differently because they were born on the other side of an imaginary line was kind of dumb. I agree with what Lydenburg said, if they can make ends meet hats off to them indeed.
Last edited by Sorgan on Thu May 28, 2015 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Cetacea
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6539
Founded: Apr 27, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Cetacea » Thu May 28, 2015 12:18 pm

The Derpy Dominion wrote:Kick out the foreigners, Europe is for Europeans.


yeah that and the rest of the world - oh look out America and Australia!

and really Moors (North Africans) are as much natives of Europe as are Indo-Europeans who originated in the middle east
Last edited by Cetacea on Thu May 28, 2015 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Mister B
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 51
Founded: May 19, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Mister B » Thu May 28, 2015 12:18 pm

Teemant wrote:
Mister B wrote:
Illegal immigrants tend to work and not claim benefits because approaching the government of a country you are illegal living in is a very good way to get deported.


So you're claiming that once these boat immigrants step on the European soil they march straigth into a workplace and start working? This isn't the case.


Most of the boat "immigrants" are nothing of the sort, they are refugees from warzones like Syria and Iraq or failed/failing states like Somalia and Eritrea. As refugees they will be prevented from working by their host country and receive paltry benefits until their status is resolved.

Those who are actual immigrants will attempt to find work immediately as this is almost always the entire reason they are migrating. If they are in the country illegally and are not refugees they cannot receive benefits.

User avatar
NicolaSturgeon
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 7
Founded: May 22, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby NicolaSturgeon » Thu May 28, 2015 12:18 pm

The Derpy Dominion wrote:Kick out the foreigners, Europe is for Europeans.

I have to agree with this. I don't dislike the foreigners, they do good stuff for us, but in the name kf tradition... We need to keep our identity and stop the blacks and arabs overrunning our streets.
Scottish Republican
Libertarian

Nationalist
And Socialist

Pro: LGBT Rights, Nationalism, Ethnic Pride, Republicanism, Pro-Choice, Traditionalism, SNP, Sinn Fein, Gerry Adams
Anti: racism, Xenophobia, Homophobia, Segregation, UK Tories, LibDems, Labour, UKIP, Green, Classical Liberalism, Monarchism, Unionists, New Scotland, Respect Party, NATO, UN, EU, UFF/UDA

User avatar
Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54847
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Thu May 28, 2015 12:19 pm

NicolaSturgeon wrote:
The Derpy Dominion wrote:Kick out the foreigners, Europe is for Europeans.

I have to agree with this. I don't dislike the foreigners, they do good stuff for us, but in the name kf tradition... We need to keep our identity and stop the blacks and arabs overrunning our streets.

That thing that will literally not happen.
Warning! This poster has:
PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

User avatar
Arcturus Novus
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6728
Founded: Dec 03, 2011
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Arcturus Novus » Thu May 28, 2015 12:19 pm

The Derpy Dominion wrote:Kick out the foreigners, Europe is for Europeans.

Whites go home, we don't want you in America/Australia/Africa.
Arcy (she/her), NS' fourth-favorite transsexual communist!
"I can fix her!" cool, I'm gonna make her worse.
me - my politics - my twitter
Nilokeras wrote:there is of course an interesting thread to pull on [...]
Unfortunately we're all forced to participate in whatever baroque humiliation kink the OP has going on instead.

User avatar
Teemant
Senator
 
Posts: 4130
Founded: Oct 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Teemant » Thu May 28, 2015 12:20 pm

Sorgan wrote:
Teemant wrote:
Things don't seem to improve one bit in Africa and it isn't Europe's fault anymore.

Oh no it's definitely still Europe's fault - just because time has passed doesn't mean its not Europe's fault anymore. There are other contributing factors of course but the enslavement, mass murder, and exploitation of the natives definitely has a big part in why things are the way they are.

I've always thought the idea of treating people differently because they were born on the other side of an imaginary line was kind of dumb. I agree with what Lydenburg said, if they can make ends meet hats off to them indeed.


Slavery was abolished long time ago but right now it is 21st century.
What mass murded? And we definitely can't make the case that there aren't enough people in Africa currently if that's what you want to say by that.
Eesti
Latvija
Lietuva
Polska

User avatar
Nierra
Diplomat
 
Posts: 800
Founded: May 07, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Nierra » Thu May 28, 2015 12:20 pm

There are never enough risk taking entrepreneurs. Immigrants are harder workers than natives 9 times out of 10
Pro: Gamer-gate, equality, opportunity, free trade, capitalism, and centrism

Aginst: Feminism, socialism, anarchism, fascism, and progressivism

There is no such thing as corporatism

User avatar
Mister B
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 51
Founded: May 19, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Mister B » Thu May 28, 2015 12:21 pm

NicolaSturgeon wrote:
The Derpy Dominion wrote:Kick out the foreigners, Europe is for Europeans.

I have to agree with this. I don't dislike the foreigners, they do good stuff for us, but in the name kf tradition... We need to keep our identity and stop the blacks and arabs overrunning our streets.


In the name of which traditions?

User avatar
Teemant
Senator
 
Posts: 4130
Founded: Oct 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Teemant » Thu May 28, 2015 12:21 pm

Mister B wrote:
Teemant wrote:
So you're claiming that once these boat immigrants step on the European soil they march straigth into a workplace and start working? This isn't the case.


Most of the boat "immigrants" are nothing of the sort, they are refugees from warzones like Syria and Iraq or failed/failing states like Somalia and Eritrea. As refugees they will be prevented from working by their host country and receive paltry benefits until their status is resolved.

Those who are actual immigrants will attempt to find work immediately as this is almost always the entire reason they are migrating. If they are in the country illegally and are not refugees they cannot receive benefits.


Most illegal immigrants in Europe are these so called boat migrants. This isn't USA.
Eesti
Latvija
Lietuva
Polska

User avatar
Grave_n_idle
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44837
Founded: Feb 11, 2004
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Grave_n_idle » Thu May 28, 2015 12:21 pm

Teemant wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:
Isn't it?

That should be an interesting one to prove. Go ahead.


He claimed that most illegal immigrants in Europe tend to work and don't claim benefits. Why the heck am I supposed to proof that they don't?


Indeed. And yet you state it as a fact.

The inverse is quite easy to support - although it's not concrete. Illegal immigrants don't have access to any support network, so they either have to be accommodated by another person at THEIR own expense or they must be getting into work quickly.

The available evidence, therefore, suggests that most people coming into the country illegally probably ARE getting into work pretty much immediately.
I identify as
a problem

User avatar
Nierra
Diplomat
 
Posts: 800
Founded: May 07, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Nierra » Thu May 28, 2015 12:22 pm

Immigration hatred is absolute nonsense. Open border advocate since 2013 never looked back. Free trade is incompatible with immigration restrictions. Both ideologically and economically speaking.
Pro: Gamer-gate, equality, opportunity, free trade, capitalism, and centrism

Aginst: Feminism, socialism, anarchism, fascism, and progressivism

There is no such thing as corporatism

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aadhiris, ARIsyan-, Bienenhalde, Cerata, Dresderstan, Europa Undivided, Forsher, Hidrandia, Kerwa, Majestic-12 [Bot], New Temecula, New-Minneapolis, Ors Might, Pasong Tirad, Philjia, Port Carverton, Simonia, Statesburg, Stratonesia, The Canadian Commonwelth, The Grand World Order, The Jamesian Republic, Uiiop

Advertisement

Remove ads