Traditional gender roles

[Ostroeuropa]

I'd say that gender is socially constructed and people gravitate toward the one they think best describes them and that they identify with.
The reason theres more MTFs than FTMs is that it's simply more desirable to be a woman than a man.
I'm not alleging that they can decide which they want. Only that it is influenced by society and the information they take in.

Identifying as a woman despite male sexual organs doesn't account for transphobia. I think were our identities as men or women able to account for transphobia and transness we'd probably see less people identifying.

But people who are born with a penis and who think "I'm a woman. It makes me feel better. It feels right. This is who I am."
They're doing that, in part, because it's simply more desirable to be a woman.

It's an internal process utilizing external data points. You don't have to deal with transphobia when merely feeling like a woman inside your own brain, you're just dealing with running a thought chain where you're a woman, and if it makes you feel good and happier, well, theres a reason.

Because it's a better life.

Same as imagining being a billionaire or eating a tub of ice cream or petting a puppy.
(Note, i'm not saying they are "Imagining" being a woman. Being a woman or a man is a thought based thing, same as imagination, and it's effects on feelings are the same as imagination. I may have butchered this explanation.)

Wow that's fucking offensive to trans women.

How do you figure?
I'm not denying they are women. I'm explaining that I think part of the reason they identify as such is emotionally based.
And part of that emotional justification is based on women having it easier and having a more desirable lifestyle.

Imagine yourself being castrated.
Now imagine yourself being given a dollar.

Which makes you happier?
Being happy with ones identity is an important part of it. This all seems pretty self-evident to me.

[Dakini]

Says the "feminist" who went on about how the non-existent campaign against manspreading was a huge feminist victory.

The only difference between attempted suicides and "real" suicides is the difference between failure and success.

Says the "feminist" who doesn't realise how we look bad disguising reported attempted suicides (sometimes even false - it's not common, but it happens - that's why I specified "reported") with real suicides.

Yes, I'm sure that people just pop entire bottles of pills or drink poison for shits and giggles. They obviously aren't attempting to kill themselves. How silly would that be?

By doing so, you're just fuelling their propaganda: I always said there are much more issues pertaining us than the issues pertaining men. But that doesn't mean we should try to negate issues like death on the workplace and suicides. We should highlight that's due patriachy, that hurts even males.

Patriarchy does hurt men. That doesn't negate the fact that women attempt suicide more than men do, even if suicidal women are just fucking awful at killing themselves.

I mean, I dated a guy who had some scars from an attempt on his own life. Just because he failed doesn't negate the problems he had which lead to this attempt (even if this attempt was doomed to fail from the start).

It always astonish me how much confused and weak is a certain kind of "feminism": first they say "oh, we care about male issues" then they say "oh, but we have it worse even regarding such issues". Wrong: I don't care about such issues because these issues are not just only lesser than the issues we have but above all because these issues are due patriarchy, not a women's fault, and we are fighting against patriarchy and by doing so we'll help males too. But that doesn't means I'm lying about the fact that there are very few issues pertaining men and they have it worse regarding such specific issues, not us.

EDIT: the only difference between attempted suicides and real suicides is life and death. You seems really confused.

Yes, the difference is life and death. The difference isn't that women are less suicidal or less likely to suffer from depression than men. Obviously both suicidal men and suicidal women need help. Attempting to erase the experience of suicidal women just because they fail more often (because... you want to score points or something?) is pretty fucking shitty and not even remotely compassionate.

[Replevion]

See, there's this problem in that not only is that contrary to the first hand accounts of most if not all trans experiences, but it's contrary to science: http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alicia_Garcia-Falgueras/publication/49626095_Sexual_differentiation_of_the_human_brain_in_relation_to_gender_identity_and_sexual_orientation/links/0c96053982b01b6e3f000000.pdf

I speak to a number of MTF transpersons. Its them that led me to conclude this. I'm currently best friends with one of them as it happens. You say its a majority that think your way, but do you have a source on it?

Further, I think sexual differentiation in the brain is well accounted for in my model.

If you decided that all women are artsy and all men are mathematical and logical, you're going to see people with brains wired for art gravitating toward the female identity and wired for math/logic in the male identity.

If you flip them around and start talking endlessly about how women are super engineers and mathematicians and men are great at guitar, you'll see the opposite effect.
I think trans identities are just an expression of this.

But in our society we've got a very, very complex set of these things, including upsides and downsides.

Further, are you somehow suggesting that peoples brains radically rewire themselves if they are the type to switch genders occasionally (I forget the term. Polygendered perhaps.)?
That's obviously ludicrous.

I say the majority think differently, and I am a source. Beyond being transfeminine myself, I'm on the steering committee for TransLAWdc which does community assistance and advocacy for hundreds of trans people in the DC metro, and my capacity is specifically in community outreach so I go to support groups to represent TransLAW and I see and hear all the experiences in these support groups. Further, I'm a volunteer crisis line operator for Translifeline which serves the entire US and Canada and I hear the experiences of all these trans people in crisis.

So, yeah, the whole 'I have friends who are trans' gambit doesn't cut it. Go to any trans support group and tell the transfeminine wing that they want to be women just because they're jealous that women have it better, so they're choosing it consciously or subconsciously. You'll be lucky if kicking you out is the only thing they kick.

And while the original link I had was broken, I have fixed it. If you read the actual article it's based on hormones at work during fetal development. It's neurochemical on a very deep level.

And it's true that genderfluid and bigender people exist, but it's going to take more time and research to figure out what, if any, common denominator there is to their development. But for trans people in the binary, there is nonetheless evidence that it is fundamentally physical, not social. The social contributions are probably real (though not necessarily anything like your narrative), but they are secondary.

Edit for your edit: You said "Finally, your study cites Reimer, which i've gone over previously as not actually a case of raising someone as a different gender, but as an abused child." Please elaborate, since I have no idea where you discussed this.

[Ostroeuropa]

I speak to a number of MTF transpersons. Its them that led me to conclude this. I'm currently best friends with one of them as it happens. You say its a majority that think your way, but do you have a source on it?

Further, I think sexual differentiation in the brain is well accounted for in my model.

If you decided that all women are artsy and all men are mathematical and logical, you're going to see people with brains wired for art gravitating toward the female identity and wired for math/logic in the male identity.

If you flip them around and start talking endlessly about how women are super engineers and mathematicians and men are great at guitar, you'll see the opposite effect.
I think trans identities are just an expression of this.

But in our society we've got a very, very complex set of these things, including upsides and downsides.

Further, are you somehow suggesting that peoples brains radically rewire themselves if they are the type to switch genders occasionally (I forget the term. Polygendered perhaps.)?
That's obviously ludicrous.

I say the majority think differently, and I am a source. Beyond being transfeminine myself, I'm on the steering committee for TransLAWdc which does community assistance and advocacy for hundreds of trans people in the DC metro, and my capacity is specifically in community outreach so I go to support groups to represent TransLAW and I see and hear all the experiences in these support groups. Further, I'm a volunteer crisis line operator for Translifeline which serves the entire US and Canada and I hear the experiences of all these trans people in crisis.

So, yeah, the whole 'I have friends who are trans' gambit doesn't cut it. Go to any trans support group and tell the transfeminine wing that they want to be women just because they're jealous that women have it better, so they're choosing it consciously or subconsciously. You'll be lucky if kicking you out is the only thing they kick.

And while the original link I had was broken, I have fixed it. If you read the actual article it's based on hormones at work during fetal development. It's neurochemical on a very deep level.

And it's true that genderfluid and bigender people exist, but it's going to take more time and research to figure out what, if any, common denominator there is to their development. But for trans people in the binary, there is nonetheless evidence that it is fundamentally physical, not social. The social contributions are probably real (though not necessarily anything like your narrative), but they are secondary.

Well part of the problem my transfriends talk about is orthodoxy in transfeminism in how it deals with and understands these issues which leads to them not talking about them in trans spaces.
It's not jealousy by the way. I never said jealousy. I think jealousy implies malice toward the people involved, and that simply isn't present.
I also wouldn't say it's a choice. You feel the way you feel.
But sure. I'm willing to concede it could be a majority of transwomen feel that way. A minority feel the way I describe though.

Further, a physical explanation with a social one as a secondary factor does nothing to disprove my claim. All it means is that my claim cannot account for all transpeople, which I never said it did.
I said it accounted for the difference in the numbers of FTM's and MTFs, something you've done nothing to show wrong.

[Ostroeuropa]

Edit for your edit: You said "Finally, your study cites Reimer, which i've gone over previously as not actually a case of raising someone as a different gender, but as an abused child." Please elaborate, since I have no idea where you discussed this.

The study you linked cites the Reimer case as evidence that you can't raise someone into a gender and that it is innate.

Reimer was not raised as a girl.
He was raised as a sexually abused child.

The researcher had some very unusual ideas of how to raise someoen to be a girl, as an example; including sexual excercises where reimer would play the part of a woman being penetrated. (Thankfully without actually doing it, rather, he would assume the position while another repeated motions, etc. Presumably to encourage Reimer to identify as a woman.)

This is hardly a test of whether you can raise someone into being a different gender. If you look at the Reimer case you'll realize why it's a very poor argument.

If he had been raised as a normal girl, then it would have some merit. But it doesn't.

Further, since he was in the care of his parents, both of whom were aware of his situation, there is a possibility of the sample being biased.
(Especially in early stages, where male babies who cry are left alone longer then female babies who cry. This has ramifications later.)

[Murray land]

This post is for all the guys who think meeting traditional gender roles is the same as being über macho. It isn't. Meeting traditional gender roles isn't about what you do it's how you carry yourself. It's not about how great u are at fighting, but are you going to protect yourself if attacked. It isn't about what a stupid man whore you can be but rather do you respect the opposite sex fora two reasons A. Women are human beings (obviously) B. If ur straight/bi and want to form a relationship its a good idea to be respectful and have good manners because a lot of women do actually like that.I'm not macho, i can't bench 200lbs and I probably couldn't hit the ball out of Fenway, but I can stand up for myself and those i love and i can do my best to rise above pettiness. TThat's what ascribing to the idea of being a traditional man is. So once again not being macho doesn't make you any less of a man. Being a cocky sawn off prick though, that would do it.

[Replevion]

I say the majority think differently, and I am a source. Beyond being transfeminine myself, I'm on the steering committee for TransLAWdc which does community assistance and advocacy for hundreds of trans people in the DC metro, and my capacity is specifically in community outreach so I go to support groups to represent TransLAW and I see and hear all the experiences in these support groups. Further, I'm a volunteer crisis line operator for Translifeline which serves the entire US and Canada and I hear the experiences of all these trans people in crisis.

So, yeah, the whole 'I have friends who are trans' gambit doesn't cut it. Go to any trans support group and tell the transfeminine wing that they want to be women just because they're jealous that women have it better, so they're choosing it consciously or subconsciously. You'll be lucky if kicking you out is the only thing they kick.

And while the original link I had was broken, I have fixed it. If you read the actual article it's based on hormones at work during fetal development. It's neurochemical on a very deep level.

And it's true that genderfluid and bigender people exist, but it's going to take more time and research to figure out what, if any, common denominator there is to their development. But for trans people in the binary, there is nonetheless evidence that it is fundamentally physical, not social. The social contributions are probably real (though not necessarily anything like your narrative), but they are secondary.

Well part of the problem my transfriends talk about is orthodoxy in transfeminism in how it deals with and understands these issues which leads to them not talking about them in trans spaces.
It's not jealousy by the way. I never said jealousy. I think jealousy implies malice toward the people involved, and that simply isn't present.
I also wouldn't say it's a choice. You feel the way you feel.
But sure. I'm willing to concede it could be a majority of transwomen feel that way. A minority feel the way I describe though.

Further, a physical explanation with a social one as a secondary factor does nothing to disprove my claim. All it means is that my claim cannot account for all transpeople, which I never said it did.
I said it accounted for the difference in the numbers of FTM's and MTFs, something you've done nothing to show wrong.

There is an imprint of a certain .... normative narrative ... that's basically the legacy of previous gatekeeping about what is and isn't "legitimate" as a motivation for transition, born of the heteronormative standards of Harry Benjamin and his successors who basically said the only real trans women were straight (androphilic) and must have a particular arc of personal feelings and development. It's taken decades of consistent pushback from the trans community to get the APA and suchlike organizations to realize that we're not all that way, but most are. It's important not to invalidate people's experience of themselves.

It's wholly possible that if this is a physically driven phenomenon that it's simply more statistically likely for one homonal release to be missed than the other. And considering that ovaries already don't make very much testosterone and that's what's needed both to prevent MTF development and cause FTM development, it would be actually quite rational that the physical hypothesis is equally or more explanatory of the difference between numbers in the population.

[Chessmistress]

Says the "feminist" who doesn't realise how we look bad disguising reported attempted suicides (sometimes even false - it's not common, but it happens - that's why I specified "reported") with real suicides.

Yes, I'm sure that people just pop entire bottles of pills or drink poison for shits and giggles. They obviously aren't attempting to kill themselves. How silly would that be?

By doing so, you're just fuelling their propaganda: I always said there are much more issues pertaining us than the issues pertaining men. But that doesn't mean we should try to negate issues like death on the workplace and suicides. We should highlight that's due patriachy, that hurts even males.

Patriarchy does hurt men. That doesn't negate the fact that women attempt suicide more than men do, even if suicidal women are just fucking awful at killing themselves.

I mean, I dated a guy who had some scars from an attempt on his own life. Just because he failed doesn't negate the problems he had which lead to this attempt (even if this attempt was doomed to fail from the start).

It always astonish me how much confused and weak is a certain kind of "feminism": first they say "oh, we care about male issues" then they say "oh, but we have it worse even regarding such issues". Wrong: I don't care about such issues because these issues are not just only lesser than the issues we have but above all because these issues are due patriarchy, not a women's fault, and we are fighting against patriarchy and by doing so we'll help males too. But that doesn't means I'm lying about the fact that there are very few issues pertaining men and they have it worse regarding such specific issues, not us.

EDIT: the only difference between attempted suicides and real suicides is life and death. You seems really confused.

Yes, the difference is life and death. The difference isn't that women are less suicidal or less likely to suffer from depression than men. Obviously both suicidal men and suicidal women need help. Attempting to erase the experience of suicidal women just because they fail more often (because... you want to score points or something?) is pretty fucking shitty and not even remotely compassionate.

It's not "attempting to erase the experience of sucidal women": it's bashing you when you compare reported attempted suicides to real suicides, in order to suggest we have it worse even regarding such specific issue. By doing so you make feminism looking bad, and also looking liar: first you say "oh, we care about male issues, too" (that's false regarding me: I don't care) then you try to minimize their issues comparing attempted reported suicides to real suicides. It cannot work so.
Ah, the "non-existent" campaign against manspreading was real, at least in my country, and also supported by Jezebel and Feministing (do you want again the links?) and you're just negating even that, just to playing nice with males. I'm not so, I don't beg for males' sympathy.

[Ostroeuropa]

Well part of the problem my transfriends talk about is orthodoxy in transfeminism in how it deals with and understands these issues which leads to them not talking about them in trans spaces.
It's not jealousy by the way. I never said jealousy. I think jealousy implies malice toward the people involved, and that simply isn't present.
I also wouldn't say it's a choice. You feel the way you feel.
But sure. I'm willing to concede it could be a majority of transwomen feel that way. A minority feel the way I describe though.

Further, a physical explanation with a social one as a secondary factor does nothing to disprove my claim. All it means is that my claim cannot account for all transpeople, which I never said it did.
I said it accounted for the difference in the numbers of FTM's and MTFs, something you've done nothing to show wrong.

There is an imprint of a certain .... normative narrative ... that's basically the legacy of previous gatekeeping about what is and isn't "legitimate" as a motivation for transition, born of the heteronormative standards of Harry Benjamin and his successors who basically said the only real trans women were straight (androphilic) and must have a particular arc of personal feelings and development. It's taken decades of consistent pushback from the trans community to get the APA and suchlike organizations to realize that we're not all that way, but most are. It's important not to invalidate people's experience of themselves.

It's wholly possible that if this is a physically driven phenomenon that it's simply more statistically likely for one homonal release to be missed than the other. And considering that ovaries already don't make very much testosterone and that's what's needed both to prevent MTF development and cause FTM development, it would be actually quite rational that the physical hypothesis is equally or more explanatory of the difference between numbers in the population.

I'm willing to concede that it's a possible explanation, in whole or in part.
Personally I suspect in part.

By the way, the reimer case: (Wiki)

Reimer said that Dr. Money forced the twins to rehearse sexual acts involving "thrusting movements", with David playing the bottom role. Reimer said that, as a child, he had to get "down on all fours" with his brother, Brian Reimer, "up behind his butt" with "his crotch against" his "buttocks". Reimer said that Dr. Money forced David, in another sexual position, to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top. Reimer said that Dr. Money also forced the children to take their "clothes off" and engage in "genital inspections". On at "least one occasion", Reimer said that Dr. Money took a photograph of the two children doing these activities. Dr. Money's rationale for these various treatments was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity".

[Replevion]

Edit for your edit: You said "Finally, your study cites Reimer, which i've gone over previously as not actually a case of raising someone as a different gender, but as an abused child." Please elaborate, since I have no idea where you discussed this.

The study you linked cites the Reimer case as evidence that you can't raise someone into a gender and that it is innate.

Reimer was not raised as a girl.
He was raised as a sexually abused child.

The researcher had some very unusual ideas of how to raise someoen to be a girl, as an example; including sexual excercises where reimer would play the part of a woman being penetrated. (Thankfully without actually doing it, rather, he would assume the position while another repeated motions, etc. Presumably to encourage Reimer to identify as a woman.)

This is hardly a test of whether you can raise someone into being a different gender. If you look at the Reimer case you'll realize why it's a very poor argument.

If he had been raised as a normal girl, then it would have some merit. But it doesn't.

Further, since he was in the care of his parents, both of whom were aware of his situation, there is a possibility of the sample being biased.
(Especially in early stages, where male babies who cry are left alone longer then female babies who cry. This has ramifications later.)

That is basically an aside in the study, not in any way the axis upon which it turns, and I'd be surprised if that were the only case. Intersex (and analogs) really isn't my specialty, but I could probably turn some things up with a modicum of effort. Meanwhile, I need to be in a meeting.

[Dakini]

Yes, I'm sure that people just pop entire bottles of pills or drink poison for shits and giggles. They obviously aren't attempting to kill themselves. How silly would that be?


Patriarchy does hurt men. That doesn't negate the fact that women attempt suicide more than men do, even if suicidal women are just fucking awful at killing themselves.

I mean, I dated a guy who had some scars from an attempt on his own life. Just because he failed doesn't negate the problems he had which lead to this attempt (even if this attempt was doomed to fail from the start).


Yes, the difference is life and death. The difference isn't that women are less suicidal or less likely to suffer from depression than men. Obviously both suicidal men and suicidal women need help. Attempting to erase the experience of suicidal women just because they fail more often (because... you want to score points or something?) is pretty fucking shitty and not even remotely compassionate.

It's not "attempting to erase the experience of sucidal women": it's bashing you when you compare reported attempted suicides to real suicides, in order to suggest we have it worse even regarding such specific issue. By doing so you make feminism looking bad, and also looking liar: first you say "oh, we care about male issues, too" (that's false regarding me: I don't care) then you try to minimize their issues comparing attempted reported suicides to real suicides. It cannot work so.

1. So you don't care about male issues, but you care about feminism looking bad for acknowledging that the combined number of women who attempt and succeed at committing suicide is larger than the number of men who do the same?
2. It's not minimizing successful suicides to compare attempted suicides to successful ones. The people who do both are attempting to end their lives. The fact that they're attempting to end their lives (or even seriously contemplating ending their lives) means that they need help. Acting like people who try and fail do not need help or are facing totally different issues than people who succeed is pretty asinine.

Ah, the "non-existent" campaign against manspreading was real, at least in my country, and also supported by Jezebel and Feministing (do you want again the links?) and you're just negating even that, just to playing nice with males. I'm not so, I don't beg for males' sympathy.

No, the "campaign against manspreading" in NYC was a campaign about politeness on the subway which included the introduction of several posters, only one of which ("Dude... stop the spread") concerned the phenomenon of "manspreading". The fact that feminist groups supported the move to include manspreading among the many rude behaviours on a subway does not mean that feminists were responsible for the ads put out by NYC's transit authority.

[Murray land]

Man spreading tho. A woman on the subway asked me to cross my legs. I said ma'am does it make ur nuts uncomfortable when you sit and cross your legs or put them together? She laughed and said no . Man spreading Iknow it looks rude but guess what ssqueezingyour junk bbetween your legs is wicked uncomfortable eespecially when wearing anything that aren't baggy sweats or b-ball shorts. I do also get some guys like to sprawl out on the subway and that's just plain impolite. But leaving your legs spread a little just for general comfort, and getting pestered for it is rude as well

[Dakini]

Man spreading tho. A woman on the subway asked me to cross my legs. I said ma'am does it make ur nuts uncomfortable when you sit and cross your legs or put them together? She laughed and said no . Man spreading Iknow it looks rude but guess what ssqueezingyour junk bbetween your legs is wicked uncomfortable eespecially when wearing anything that aren't baggy sweats or b-ball shorts. I do also get some guys like to sprawl out on the subway and that's just plain impolite. But leaving your legs spread a little just for general comfort, and getting pestered for it is rude as well

Dude, it's more comfortable for women to sit with our knees apart and our feet way out too, but decent and considerate people do not sit that way on public transportation because taking up all the space for yourself is fucking rude.

[Chessmistress]

1. So you don't care about male issues, but you care about feminism looking bad for acknowledging that the combined number of women who attempt and succeed at committing suicide is larger than the number of men who do the same?
2. It's not minimizing successful suicides to compare attempted suicides to successful ones. The people who do both are attempting to end their lives. The fact that they're attempting to end their lives (or even seriously contemplating ending their lives) means that they need help. Acting like people who try and fail do not need help or are facing totally different issues than people who succeed is pretty asinine.

I understand you're not familiar with activism and its goals.
I care just only about our issues.
That's exactly why I know it's not wise comparing the sum of reported attempted suicides + suicides of women to the same for men, because that is the sum of two very different outcomes, and anti-feminists aren't so stupid to not get the difference. That's why suicides and attempted sucides pertaining us should be keep separated from suicides of males.
If you want to highlight societal pressure against us, just try to surface anorexia...that's a friendly suggestion: never engage a battle you know you cannot win.

No, the "campaign against manspreading" in NYC was a campaign about politeness on the subway which included the introduction of several posters, only one of which ("Dude... stop the spread") concerned the phenomenon of "manspreading". The fact that feminist groups supported the move to include manspreading among the many rude behaviours on a subway does not mean that feminists were responsible for the ads put out by NYC's transit authority.

I don't know what happened in NYC in deep details, I don't live in NYC, but it's quite obiouvs that our sisters haven't paid for nor designed the ads. In my country I took photos and sent these photos to municipality: that's the only power we had, if we would have been responsibles about ads, it would have end differently (it didn't work for us).

[Grave_n_idle]

Man spreading tho. A woman on the subway asked me to cross my legs. I said ma'am does it make ur nuts uncomfortable when you sit and cross your legs or put them together? She laughed and said no . Man spreading Iknow it looks rude but guess what ssqueezingyour junk bbetween your legs is wicked uncomfortable eespecially when wearing anything that aren't baggy sweats or b-ball shorts. I do also get some guys like to sprawl out on the subway and that's just plain impolite. But leaving your legs spread a little just for general comfort, and getting pestered for it is rude as well

Dude, it's more comfortable for women to sit with our knees apart and our feet way out too, but decent and considerate people do not sit that way on public transportation because taking up all the space for yourself is fucking rude.

Right? Spreading out on the tube isn't about privilege or oppression - it's about space management.

[Esternial]

I just treat everyone with a modicum of respect. Unless they've proven not to deserve it.

Wowie OP I just blew yo mind.

[Chessmistress]

Dude, it's more comfortable for women to sit with our knees apart and our feet way out too, but decent and considerate people do not sit that way on public transportation because taking up all the space for yourself is fucking rude.

Right? Spreading out on the tube isn't about privilege or oppression - it's about space management.

It's not about privilege or oppression, but it's about male entitlement.
Otherwise why the hell we have supported the campaign?
If it would have been just only about space management it wouldn't have been a feminist issue.

[Grave_n_idle]

Right? Spreading out on the tube isn't about privilege or oppression - it's about space management.

It's not about privilege or oppression, but it's about male entitlement.

If you mean that some people spread out like a complete douche bag... yeah, they feel like they have some kind of right to.

But I was talking about why people bitch at you if you OD do it. It's not because you're being oppressed by feminazis... it's because it's a confined space, and you're talking up a seat and a half. (Well, not you, personally).

[Murray land]

Man spreading tho. A woman on the subway asked me to cross my legs. I said ma'am does it make ur nuts uncomfortable when you sit and cross your legs or put them together? She laughed and said no . Man spreading Iknow it looks rude but guess what ssqueezingyour junk bbetween your legs is wicked uncomfortable eespecially when wearing anything that aren't baggy sweats or b-ball shorts. I do also get some guys like to sprawl out on the subway and that's just plain impolite. But leaving your legs spread a little just for general comfort, and getting pestered for it is rude as well

Dude, it's more comfortable for women to sit with our knees apart and our feet way out too, but decent and considerate people do not sit that way on public transportation because taking up all the space for yourself is fucking rude.

Why do ur balls hurt when u cross ur legs too?

[Grave_n_idle]

Dude, it's more comfortable for women to sit with our knees apart and our feet way out too, but decent and considerate people do not sit that way on public transportation because taking up all the space for yourself is fucking rude.

Why do ur balls hurt when u cross ur legs too?

Why would you cross your legs on the tube? Is this some kind of martyr thing? Like 'if I can't spread my legs, I'm gonna suffer'.

It's a silly complaint, anyway - you can take up less space without crossing your legs, and if you haven't learned enough about your body to sit without crushing your own testicles, that's not a good argument for why other people should be inconvenienced.

[Dakini]

Dude, it's more comfortable for women to sit with our knees apart and our feet way out too, but decent and considerate people do not sit that way on public transportation because taking up all the space for yourself is fucking rude.

Why do ur balls hurt when u cross ur legs too?

I don't have balls and I don't cross my legs on the train.

My partner manages to avoid crushing his junk when he puts his knees together on the train and I suspect that his junk is bigger than yours.

[Murray land]

Why do ur balls hurt when u cross ur legs too?

Why would you cross your legs on the tube? Is this some kind of martyr thing? Like 'if I can't spread my legs, I'm gonna suffer'.

It's a silly complaint, anyway - you can take up less space without crossing your legs, and if you haven't learned enough about your body to sit without crushing your own testicles, that's not a good argument for why other people should be inconvenienced.

Yes it is.

[Grave_n_idle]

Why would you cross your legs on the tube? Is this some kind of martyr thing? Like 'if I can't spread my legs, I'm gonna suffer'.

It's a silly complaint, anyway - you can take up less space without crossing your legs, and if you haven't learned enough about your body to sit without crushing your own testicles, that's not a good argument for why other people should be inconvenienced.

Yes it is.

Why? Body-incompetence is not an excuse for being rude.

[Dakini]

1. So you don't care about male issues, but you care about feminism looking bad for acknowledging that the combined number of women who attempt and succeed at committing suicide is larger than the number of men who do the same?
2. It's not minimizing successful suicides to compare attempted suicides to successful ones. The people who do both are attempting to end their lives. The fact that they're attempting to end their lives (or even seriously contemplating ending their lives) means that they need help. Acting like people who try and fail do not need help or are facing totally different issues than people who succeed is pretty asinine.

I understand you're not familiar with activism and its goals.
I care just only about our issues.
That's exactly why I know it's not wise comparing the sum of reported attempted suicides + suicides of women to the same for men, because that is the sum of two very different outcomes, and anti-feminists aren't so stupid to not get the difference. That's why suicides and attempted sucides pertaining us should be keep separated from suicides of males.

So you don't care about men or mental health issues, you just care about scoring points. You don't care about depression (among men or women) or suicide/suicide attempts (among men or women), you just care about scoring points. You don't care about helping people who are feeling suicidal and who are likely to make an attempt on their own lives (a group which includes more women than men), you just care about scoring points.

Good to know that you lack compassion and that your opinions should be disregarded as totally worthless.

If you want to highlight societal pressure against us, just try to surface anorexia...that's a friendly suggestion: never engage a battle you know you cannot win.

How about don't tell me what the fuck to do? I'll just continue trying to be a decent human being and you go do whatever the fuck you're going to do which is quite obviously not even trying to help women or men who are suicidal (or even listen to them, apparently).

No, the "campaign against manspreading" in NYC was a campaign about politeness on the subway which included the introduction of several posters, only one of which ("Dude... stop the spread") concerned the phenomenon of "manspreading". The fact that feminist groups supported the move to include manspreading among the many rude behaviours on a subway does not mean that feminists were responsible for the ads put out by NYC's transit authority.

I don't know what happened in NYC in deep details, I don't live in NYC, but it's quite obiouvs that our sisters haven't paid for nor designed the ads. In my country I took photos and sent these photos to municipality: that's the only power we had, if we would have been responsibles about ads, it would have end differently (it didn't work for us).

Or maybe the NYC transit authority was going to make a series of ads about being polite on public transportation and your efforts amounted to nothing. Hell, there were similar ads published by the NYC transit authority in the 1930s that included examples of "manspreading" (though it wasn't called that at the time), are you going to try taking credit for that too?

[Dakini]

Yes it is.

Why? Body-incompetence is not an excuse for being rude.

Cue Murray land claiming to have the biggest balls of all.

*cue the appropriate AC/DC song*