Mass shootings and the Media

[Spirit of Hope]

Maybe then don't make accusations you can't back up with evidence.

Didn't make accusations. You can look at other countries where training and proper storage of guns (e.g. in locked areas with the ammunition stored separately) is required for gun ownership and see that they have much lower rates of gun violence than the USA. You can also look at the fact that the USA has so many more mass killings than other countries, it takes 36 other countries with a combined population 10 times higher than that of the USA to come close to its total number.

You still have not provided evidence that Safe Storage Laws and Training laws have any effect. Only that the United States has a homicide issue. Which I admit it does, however this is not the same thing as a firearms issue as plety of homicides are committed without firearms.

“[t]here is insufficient evidence to support the simple premise that reducing the stockpile of licitly held civilian firearms will result in a reduction in either firearm or overall sudden death rates.”
Jeanine Baker & Samara McPhedran, Gun Laws and Sudden Death: Did the Australian Firearms Legislation of 1996 Make a Difference?

“[u]sing a battery of structural break tests, there is little evidence to suggest that [the NFA] had any significant effects on firearm homicides and suicides."
Wang-Sheng Lee & Sandy Suardi, The Australian Firearms Buyback and Its Effect on Gun Deaths

See the nice thing is that as far as I can tell the general homicide death in Australia fell at around the same rate that the gun homicide rate fell after the ban. That means that the fall in gun homicides is likely to be because of other factors, not because of the legislation. The homicide rate was already falling when the legislation was passed.

Another study found the ones you cited "deeply flawed".

It only called one of the studies I cited "deeply flawed," also as noted in the article you cited is that there main conclusion was about gun suicides not gun homicides. The study notes that all they could prove is that a decrease in guns did not lead to an increase in homicides. So the point is still contested.

Evidence? See you didn't post any, so I don't know if that is true or not.

Here's a list of all the school shootings in Canada throughout its history, here's a list of such shootings in the USA. You can count, right?

I can count, but school shooting are not the whole of mass shootings and not all school shootings are mass shootings and the Canadian one does not go back before 1884. Does that mean Canada didn't exist before 1884, that there were no school shootings before 1884, or that the article is incomplete?

[Galiantus II]

Anyone mentally deranged enough to take a gun and start shooting people for no reason is also crazy enough to break whatever laws are put in place to try and keep him from getting a hold of a gun.

It's a little hard to get a gun if you have stringent background checks, long wait periods and if lawful gun owners are required to lock their guns away, isn't it?

Yes. But that isn't going to keep a criminal from breaking the law. If someone really wants to, they can break into safes, go to black market sources, etc.

[Kelinfort]

School shootings are far rarer than shootings in cities. As it stands, most of them are influenced by the perpetrator's personal life and not gun culture. We need to address underplaying economic issues with private and public efforts rather than curtailing the right to bear arms.

What the fuck good has the right to bear arms done?

It is an affirmation of freedom, an example of personal freedom in action. Whenever possible, personal freedom must be extended. Besides, with a sufficient economic and social safety net, crime will decrease commiserately and rights will not have to be impinged.

[Ifreann]

It's a little hard to get a gun if you have stringent background checks, long wait periods and if lawful gun owners are required to lock their guns away, isn't it?

Yes. But that isn't going to keep a criminal from breaking the law. If someone really wants to, they can break into safes, go to black market sources, etc.

Bit trickier to do that without getting caught and arrested than it is to grab a gun that's kept loaded in an unlocked drawer.

[Farnhamia]

Gee... maybe when you have fewer guns in a country, fewer people get shot.



Just a thought.


Posted last post.

Anyone mentally deranged enough to take a gun and start shooting people for no reason is also crazy enough to break whatever laws are put in place to try and keep him from getting a hold of a gun.

Granted this is just a single example but James Holmes, the shooter at the Aurora, Colorado, movie theater, broke no laws in acquiring his weapons:

On May 22, 2012, Holmes purchased a Glock 22 pistol at a Gander Mountain shop in Aurora. Six days later, on May 28, he bought a Remington 870 Express Tactical shotgun at a Bass Pro Shops in Denver.[58] On June 7, just hours after failing his oral exam at the university,[47] he purchased a Smith & Wesson M&P15 semi-automatic rifle from a Gander Mountain in Thornton, with a second Glock 22 pistol at the same Bass Pro Shops in Denver on July 6.[59] All the weapons were bought legally and background checks were performed.[60]

He also bought thousands of rounds of ammunition, quite legally, over the Internet.

[Galiantus II]

Yes. But that isn't going to keep a criminal from breaking the law. If someone really wants to, they can break into safes, go to black market sources, etc.

Bit trickier to do that without getting caught and arrested than it is to grab a gun that's kept loaded in an unlocked drawer.

Again true. But we are dealing with someone mentally deranged enough to run around shooting people until the police come. Obviously someone who is willing to die trying to commit mass-murder is not all that scared of the consequences of breaking the law.

[Galiantus II]

Anyone mentally deranged enough to take a gun and start shooting people for no reason is also crazy enough to break whatever laws are put in place to try and keep him from getting a hold of a gun.

Granted this is just a single example but James Holmes, the shooter at the Aurora, Colorado, movie theater, broke no laws in acquiring his weapons:

On May 22, 2012, Holmes purchased a Glock 22 pistol at a Gander Mountain shop in Aurora. Six days later, on May 28, he bought a Remington 870 Express Tactical shotgun at a Bass Pro Shops in Denver.[58] On June 7, just hours after failing his oral exam at the university,[47] he purchased a Smith & Wesson M&P15 semi-automatic rifle from a Gander Mountain in Thornton, with a second Glock 22 pistol at the same Bass Pro Shops in Denver on July 6.[59] All the weapons were bought legally and background checks were performed.[60]

He also bought thousands of rounds of ammunition, quite legally, over the Internet.

Exactly. Anyone who wants to commit a mass murder will get a gun.

[Dakini]

What the fuck good has the right to bear arms done?

It is an affirmation of freedom, an example of personal freedom in action. Whenever possible, personal freedom must be extended. Besides, with a sufficient economic and social safety net, crime will decrease commiserately and rights will not have to be impinged.

How is carrying a weapon an affirmation of freedom?

[Galiantus II]

It is an affirmation of freedom, an example of personal freedom in action. Whenever possible, personal freedom must be extended. Besides, with a sufficient economic and social safety net, crime will decrease commiserately and rights will not have to be impinged.

How is carrying a weapon an affirmation of freedom?

It is the ability to protect myself from someone deranged enough to try and kill me, or anyone else for that matter.

[Dakini]

Bit trickier to do that without getting caught and arrested than it is to grab a gun that's kept loaded in an unlocked drawer.

Again true. But we are dealing with someone mentally deranged enough to run around shooting people until the police come. Obviously someone who is willing to die trying to commit mass-murder is not all that scared of the consequences of breaking the law.

If they're so deranged, how are they able to open a safe they don't know the combination for?

[Dakini]

How is carrying a weapon an affirmation of freedom?

It is the ability to protect myself from someone deranged enough to try and kill me, or anyone else for that matter.

So living in fear is freedom?

[Ifreann]

Bit trickier to do that without getting caught and arrested than it is to grab a gun that's kept loaded in an unlocked drawer.

Again true. But we are dealing with someone mentally deranged enough to run around shooting people until the police come. Obviously someone who is willing to die trying to commit mass-murder is not all that scared of the consequences of breaking the law.

It doesn't matter whether one is scared of the consequences of breaking the law, regardless of the state of one's mental health. That lack of fear won't quietly pop open a locked safe. It won't allow a large criminal enterprise to go undetected by the police.

[Farnhamia]

Granted this is just a single example but James Holmes, the shooter at the Aurora, Colorado, movie theater, broke no laws in acquiring his weapons:

He also bought thousands of rounds of ammunition, quite legally, over the Internet.

Exactly. Anyone who wants to commit a mass murder will get a gun.

But they don't have to break the law to do it. Holmes bought his legally, that kid who shot up that elementary school in Connecticut used his mother's legally acquired guns. Harris and Klebold got their guns more or less legally, one through a friend who bought it for them, the other in a "private sale." It's so easy to buy guns in the US, there's no reason to break laws if one is patient. Of course, someone who is raving mad might steal one and start shooting but these planning shootings always seem to start out with easily gotten, legal guns.

[Spirit of Hope]

It is the ability to protect myself from someone deranged enough to try and kill me, or anyone else for that matter.

So living in fear is freedom?

Being allowed to prepare for the worst is freedom.

[Galiantus II]

Again true. But we are dealing with someone mentally deranged enough to run around shooting people until the police come. Obviously someone who is willing to die trying to commit mass-murder is not all that scared of the consequences of breaking the law.

If they're so deranged, how are they able to open a safe they don't know the combination for?

You know there are ways to BREAK INTO a safe, right? And on the black market of any country, I am sure you can find someone who breaks safes for valuables and sells them.

[Dakini]

So living in fear is freedom?

Being allowed to prepare for the worst is freedom.

So living in perpetual fear and vigilance is the way to be free? That's what you're saying?

And here I thought freedom was being able to walk to the store in the middle of the night without worrying or being armed to the teeth because I know I live somewhere that's safe.

[Dakini]

If they're so deranged, how are they able to open a safe they don't know the combination for?

You know there are ways to BREAK INTO a safe, right? And on the black market of any country, I am sure you can find someone who breaks safes for valuables and sells them.

Ah, so this mentally deranged person is going to steal a safe (which they have to remove from a wall), bring it to a person they found on the black market who is an expert safe cracker and then use the gun they hope to find inside for some terrible purpose all before the police find them or their mental illness (which you insist they have) gets to them?

You know, I think I prefer that option to "guy walks into a store and buys a gun with very little scrutiny".

[Galiantus II]

Exactly. Anyone who wants to commit a mass murder will get a gun.

But they don't have to break the law to do it. Holmes bought his legally, that kid who shot up that elementary school in Connecticut used his mother's legally acquired guns. Harris and Klebold got their guns more or less legally, one through a friend who bought it for them, the other in a "private sale." It's so easy to buy guns in the US, there's no reason to break laws if one is patient. Of course, someone who is raving mad might steal one and start shooting but these planning shootings always seem to start out with easily gotten, legal guns.

There will always be available guns. What are you going to do? Take guns from the police? I think the consequence of this is that you will see mass-murders committed with machetes and the like. Then you'll have to make knives illegal...

[Ifreann]

Granted this is just a single example but James Holmes, the shooter at the Aurora, Colorado, movie theater, broke no laws in acquiring his weapons:

He also bought thousands of rounds of ammunition, quite legally, over the Internet.

Exactly. Anyone who wants to commit a mass murder will get a gun.

Simply false. Mass murderers are not an irresistible force of nature. They're not earthquakes or tidal waves. They're just people. A person can fail to open a safe. A person can try and be stopped. A person can be found trying to contact criminals trafficking in illegal weapons and arrested.

[Dakini]

But they don't have to break the law to do it. Holmes bought his legally, that kid who shot up that elementary school in Connecticut used his mother's legally acquired guns. Harris and Klebold got their guns more or less legally, one through a friend who bought it for them, the other in a "private sale." It's so easy to buy guns in the US, there's no reason to break laws if one is patient. Of course, someone who is raving mad might steal one and start shooting but these planning shootings always seem to start out with easily gotten, legal guns.

There will always be available guns. What are you going to do? Take guns from the police?

Evidence that guns stolen from the police are very frequently used in crimes?

I think the consequence of this is that you will see mass-murders committed with machetes and the like. Then you'll have to make knives illegal...

Except that it takes a lot longer to kill someone with a knife... which is why knife attacks tend to have a much lower body count.

[Saiwania]

I mean, you know that the USA had more mass shootings last year than Canada has had in its entire history, right?

Instead Canada has mass stabbings, really that much better I suppose? People who might not be in the best shape have to learn fucking Krav Maga or some similarly effective martial art in order to fend off against a knife wielder with only their bare hands. If firearms are to be restricted I demand that it also be applied to drugs such as marijuana, and the other substances that certain people want legalized.

[Spirit of Hope]

Exactly. Anyone who wants to commit a mass murder will get a gun.

But they don't have to break the law to do it. Holmes bought his legally, that kid who shot up that elementary school in Connecticut used his mother's legally acquired guns. Harris and Klebold got their guns more or less legally, one through a friend who bought it for them, the other in a "private sale." It's so easy to buy guns in the US, there's no reason to break laws if one is patient. Of course, someone who is raving mad might steal one and start shooting but these planning shootings always seem to start out with easily gotten, legal guns.

Harris and Klebold both got there guns quite illegally, they had someone else buy the guns for them (a straw purchase which is illegal) and one of there guns was purchased from a gun store that did not keep records of the purchase (another crime).

Adam Lanza (Sandy Hook) killed his mom before taking the gun. While his taking the gun isn't a crime the murder he carried out to acquire it was.

James Holmes probably should have been pared from purchasing his firearms due to mental illness, he had made homicidal statements to his psychiatrists, but the steps to block his access to firearms was not taken.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

You know there are ways to BREAK INTO a safe, right? And on the black market of any country, I am sure you can find someone who breaks safes for valuables and sells them.

Ah, so this mentally deranged person is going to steal a safe (which they have to remove from a wall), bring it to a person they found on the black market who is an expert safe cracker and then use the gun they hope to find inside for some terrible purpose all before the police find them or their mental illness (which you insist they have) gets to them?

Or maybe the safe has a key.

[Galiantus II]

Exactly. Anyone who wants to commit a mass murder will get a gun.

Simply false. Mass murderers are not an irresistible force of nature. They're not earthquakes or tidal waves. They're just people. A person can fail to open a safe. A person can try and be stopped. A person can be found trying to contact criminals trafficking in illegal weapons and arrested.

And I am not denying this is true. But you cannot decrease the amount of mass murders just by removing guns. There are other options, and no law is fail-safe.

[Ifreann]

I mean, you know that the USA had more mass shootings last year than Canada has had in its entire history, right?

Instead Canada has mass stabbings, really that much better I suppose?

Three people being murdered by their daughter and her boyfriend is hardly a mass stabbing.

People who might not be in the best shape have to learn fucking Krav Maga or some similarly effective martial art in order to fend off against a knife wielder with only their bare hands.

Effective and safe use of firearms also requires training, as any of the supporters of gun rights will be only too happy to tell you.

If firearms are to be restricted I demand that it also be applied to drugs such as marijuana, and the other substances that certain people want legalized.

Why?