Leftists have, can, and should oppose Islam

[The Black Forrest]

Does she make that choice or does society give her brownie points for doing that?

Would she be treated any less if she was "yea screw that"

It is dependent upon the society. She may be isolated for wearing it or she may be isolated for not wearing it. We need to promote a society where her choice to wear it or not where it is equally respected.

That I have no problem. If she chooses to wear it for herself and not "guided" by family and friends to wear it.

You cannot divorce the past from the present. The Middle East and Northern Africa certainly still feels the effects of the Crusades, just as Europe still feels the effects of the Renaissance that resulted from the discovery of Islamic science and philosophy. Radical Islam is an exceptionally recent phenomenon, and was brought about as a response to the imperialism faced at the times. Radical Islam continues to present itself as the standard against Westerm imperialism. Dismissing Islamic extremism as just being about the inherent violence of Islam as the OP suggests is a failure to recognize the historical and present sociological conditions that have led to the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.

You sure those effects aren't from recent times? Why would the events from 900 years ago have more of an impact then the last 150 years? The people of today aren't the people of 900 years ago. You shouldn't forget the past. But it's rather childish to hold a grudge from events people can't even tell if they have family involved with them. Even if they did; are they even remotely similar to the person of the time? It's like saying I am a racist bastard because 6 generations ago I had a cousin who owned slaves.

It's this kind of stupidity which radical religon needs. It's why they oppose seriuos education. Islam sorely needs to get the education and artistry labels back.

[Arumdaum]

The "struggles" of the left-wing around the globe "against" religion have been considerably less than admirable.

And seem to have not been too successful anywhere but in the first world.

what do u mean

[Benuty]

What if I told you that I think democracy is overrated, and in some cases may even be harmful?

In countries like Egypt where a large portion of the population are extremely religious and believe in stoning women for adultery and killing people who insult Muhammad, a Marxist-Leninist one-party dictatorship is preferable to a democracy.

Out of shear curiosity, what are your feelings towards Josef Stalin?

Ironic considering the man hated the Society of the Godless so much (because they made administration difficult in a union of countries where over half the people were still religious), and the fact they contributed to the German propaganda campaign pretty much sealed their fate.

[Republic of the Cristo]

The "struggles" of the left-wing around the globe "against" religion have been considerably less than admirable.

Not to mention the whole genocide angle makes the Young Turks a less than respectable group. Of-course the OP seems oddly focused on actions against Christianity, and Islam which makes the validity of this discussion rather...concerning.

This is a bit off topic, but has anyone seen their youtube channel? I swear, nothing makes me more mad then listening to those hypocrites... Its great to listen to when you work out, makes you angry!

[Benuty]

Not to mention the whole genocide angle makes the Young Turks a less than respectable group. Of-course the OP seems oddly focused on actions against Christianity, and Islam which makes the validity of this discussion rather...concerning.

This is a bit off topic, but has anyone seen their youtube channel? I swear, nothing makes me more mad then listening to those hypocrites... Its great to listen to when you work out, makes you angry!

Certain members of their YouTube channel are alright. Sometimes Cenk will make agreeable statements, but the whole Armenian genocide thing is utterly cringe worthy (bonus points for the Armenian co-host actually defending Cenk though).

[Benuty]

I'm totally opposed to all organized religion. I believe the Abrahamic religions have been the worst and most violent throughout history. I also believe Islam, for some reason, got stuck/went back to the Dark Ages (wait, weren't Muslims actually really advancing at that point) at some point and that it is totally unacceptable for them to take their belief system so literally.

The Jews stopped. The Christians stopped. They generally aren't running countries that behead and stone people. Islam, it's your turn.

*acknowledges 'not all muslims' whatever ok*

Dark Ages are kind of hard to go back to if they didn't exist in the first place. I for one will never know how the lack of records on the era leading up to the medieval era got labeled as "religions fault". Of-course the whole "medieval era were entirely the dark ages" theory is laughable as well.

[Republic of the Cristo]

This is a bit off topic, but has anyone seen their youtube channel? I swear, nothing makes me more mad then listening to those hypocrites... Its great to listen to when you work out, makes you angry!

Certain members of their YouTube channel are alright. Sometimes Cenk will make agreeable statements, but the whole Armenian genocide thing is utterly cringe worthy (bonus points for the Armenian co-host actually defending Cenk though).

Cenk... just... , that is the only way I can describe him . Same for that other young guy, the one with the short hair on him to.

You should have heard their stuff on the Martin/Zimmerman stuff, that was like putting a toothpick in your big toenail and kicking a wall as hard as you could.

[Benuty]

But the argument often against organized religion. What about disorganized religion? Kind of like the Quakers.

Bonus points if they want the Quakers imprisoned for founding an underground railroad in Uganda to prevent homosexuals from being lynched, or "correctively" raped.

[Republic of the Cristo]

But the argument often against organized religion. What about disorganized religion? Kind of like the Quakers.

Bonus points if they want the Quakers imprisoned for founding an underground railroad in Uganda to prevent homosexuals from being lynched, or "correctively" raped.

I was speaking more on the fact that they are really decentralized and are very much so for direct democracy in their church rule. Would that count as organized religion?

[Benuty]

Bonus points if they want the Quakers imprisoned for founding an underground railroad in Uganda to prevent homosexuals from being lynched, or "correctively" raped.

I was speaking more on the fact that they are really decentralized and are very much so for direct democracy in their church rule. Would that count as organized religion?

The Society of Friends (how most used to go about) tend to be really distant, but several of the chapters have been notably in the news for good things. Well aside from a certain tricky dick who happened to be in the White House, and was responsible for ending (albeit prolonging as well) the U.S involvement in the Vietnamese civil war. I never understood why people think the U.S was essentially the main factor in the war, but that is for another thread.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I oppose extremism in any religion, at least insofar as it has a negative impact on the lives of others.

[Romalae]

Not to mention the whole genocide angle makes the Young Turks a less than respectable group. Of-course the OP seems oddly focused on actions against Christianity, and Islam which makes the validity of this discussion rather...concerning.

This is a bit off topic, but has anyone seen their youtube channel? I swear, nothing makes me more mad then listening to those hypocrites... Its great to listen to when you work out, makes you angry!

I think their main problem is that they have an ideological narrative to continuously reinforce, and will mold any current events story to fit this narrative.

But if it's actually making you physically angry, then I suggest you stop watching. It's a YouTube channel; I can only imagine how you'll feel when you come across an Alex Jones video, lol.

The "struggles" of the left-wing around the globe "against" religion have been considerably less than admirable.

Not to mention the whole genocide angle makes the Young Turks a less than respectable group. Of-course the OP seems oddly focused on actions against Christianity, and Islam which makes the validity of this discussion rather...concerning.

That's exactly what I was trying to point out on the first page. Strangely, the OP left out any mention of the Armenian Genocide when referencing the historical Young Turks. When it comes to them, that's just about the first thing I think of.

I oppose extremism in any religion, at least insofar as it has a negative impact on the lives of others.

Hmm... is there any benevolent extremism?

[Republic of the Cristo]

I oppose extremism in any religion, at least insofar as it has a negative impact on the lives of others.

So like, how about extreme Christianity? Not like the Catholic of church of old inquisition stuff, but like the What Jesus said, pacifist, equality, charity stuff.

[Republic of the Cristo]

This is a bit off topic, but has anyone seen their youtube channel? I swear, nothing makes me more mad then listening to those hypocrites... Its great to listen to when you work out, makes you angry!

I think their main problem is that they have an ideological narrative to continuously reinforce, and will mold any current events story to fit this narrative.

But if it's actually making you physically angry, then I suggest you stop watching. It's a YouTube channel; I can only imagine how you'll feel when you come across an Alex Jones video, lol.

Not to mention the whole genocide angle makes the Young Turks a less than respectable group. Of-course the OP seems oddly focused on actions against Christianity, and Islam which makes the validity of this discussion rather...concerning.

That's exactly what I was trying to point out on the first page. Strangely, the OP left out any mention of the Armenian Genocide when referencing the historical Young Turks. When it comes to them, that's just about the first thing I think of.

I oppose extremism in any religion, at least insofar as it has a negative impact on the lives of others.

Hmm... is there any benevolent extremism?

Alex Jones is a nut job.

[Norstal]

I oppose extremism in any religion, at least insofar as it has a negative impact on the lives of others.

So like, how about extreme Christianity? Not like the Catholic of church of old inquisition stuff, but like the What Jesus said, pacifist, equality, charity stuff.

That's not extremist Christianity. Not by a long shot.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I oppose extremism in any religion, at least insofar as it has a negative impact on the lives of others.

So like, how about extreme Christianity? Not like the Catholic of church of old inquisition stuff, but like the What Jesus said, pacifist, equality, charity stuff.

That's not extreme Christianity, extreme Christianity is bombing abortion clinics and whatnot.

[Republic of the Cristo]

So like, how about extreme Christianity? Not like the Catholic of church of old inquisition stuff, but like the What Jesus said, pacifist, equality, charity stuff.

That's not extremist Christianity. Not by a long shot.

What's your idea of a Christian?

[Cannot think of a name]

I consider myself a leftist (broadly speaking), and it irritates me immensely when I see people say things along the lines of "leftists/multiculturalists/cultural Marxists (whatever the hell that means) are supporting Muslims and Islam". Do people not know the history of the left-wing and its admirable struggle against organized religion across the globe?

• The original leftists, the French revolutionaries, were immensely anti-clerical and opposed to the Catholic Church. They carried out one of the world's first modern de-Christianization campaigns.
• The leftist regime of Plutarcho Elias Calles led a great pro-secular, anti-clerical campaign against the Catholic Church in Mexico.
• The leftist Young Turks and later Kemalists of Turkey promoted secularism, created a progressive republican nation-state, and abolished the Caliphate. They banned the hijab from public places and greatly promoted women's rights.
• The Bolsheviks stomped Islam out of public life in Central Asia, and gave unprecedented rights and freedom to Central Asian women.
• The Soviets fought to support the socialist government in Afghanistan and uphold civilization and progress against the uncivilized and backwards Islamists. After the Soviets withdrew and the Taliban established their dominance by the mid-90s, Afghanistan was plunged into a regressive, barbaric, quasi-medieval state of hellish proportions.
• In my own country of Telangana, Communists organized a great peasant rebellion in the 1940s against oppressive landlords and the Islamic state of Hyderabad.

This is just a small list, and can probably be extended easily. Given this glorious history of fighting against religious barbarism and backwardness on all continents of the globe, are modern leftists too pusillanimous with regards to Islam? Have leftists forgotten what it means to be a leftist?

This is a faulty premise on so...so many levels.

Let's say that I'm leftist as an ideology, which is your best case scenario. This is to say that I'm attached to the idea of being a leftist and therefore am adjusting my beliefs and actions to match the ideas of the left in an effort to be as left as I can. A purist. Even if I grant that, I still wouldn't be beholden to a traditional outlook. As an ideology it's not about preserving practices. You haven't provided (maybe you have subsequently, which okay, my bad) a reason to adhere to these out of context examples other than there were other people who can be loosely defined as 'left' opposing entrenched religious organizations and their cultural influence or variations thereof. This doesn't dictate why I, identifying as a leftist, should 'oppose' Islam...brings up another problem I'll get to eventually...

But that's kind of a silly position to put ones self in. One is 'left' or 'right' because their set of beliefs fill up enough columns on one side or the other and that label hangs on them. (caveating that beliefs are influenced by surroundings experiences blah blah blah) It's more than likely (not a sociologist nor have I done any kind of study or survey) that you find yourself believing a set of things that finds you agreeing more with one side or the other.

But now there's an even bigger problem with your premise. Due to a set of beliefs I've been loosely grouped into a broadly defined binary of public policy debate. I have little reason to fall into line with current "leftists" who have different ideas on specific issues much less the actions of people who have historically been labeled with the same one-of-two labels. I'm left because I believe in a robust social safety net so sayeth AM radio but maybe I have a different opinion as other 'leftists' on education or...fucking whatever. I don't have to fall in line nor do they have to fall in line with me. What am I afraid of? Someone going to take away my 'leftist' card? I'm only beholden to what I believe to be a good idea. Who cares what uniform people wore when they did shit?

Never mind the issue with the poorly defined 'opposing Islam.' What does that even mean? Supporting wars against Islamic nations? Supporting the curtailing of religious freedoms of Islamic people? How many other 'leftist' ideals are supposed to be sold out to hold to this loosely assembled 'historic' leftist opposition to Islam? Maybe I missed it in the OP, but what you've suggested as the left not opposing Islam enough or whatever is that the right wing says so. They're saying so because they're not getting carte blanche to invade Islamic countries or to treat Muslims as enemies. That's horseshit. I don't let people who are nominally on my side to define my beliefs and I don't let people who are nominally opposed to me define my beliefs. You shouldn't either.

You've poorly defined why I should do the thing I should do that you also poorly defined. You need to focus, man.

[Republic of the Cristo]

So like, how about extreme Christianity? Not like the Catholic of church of old inquisition stuff, but like the What Jesus said, pacifist, equality, charity stuff.

That's not extreme Christianity, extreme Christianity is bombing abortion clinics and whatnot.

Not really. Jesus never said to kill anyone. Pacifism.

[Romalae]

Alex Jones is a nut job.

Which is why it's almost unfathomable to me that there are people who take him seriously. Even some people I know personally. As in, family.

[Washington Resistance Army]

That's not extreme Christianity, extreme Christianity is bombing abortion clinics and whatnot.

Not really. Jesus never said to kill anyone. Pacifism.

And? There are still extremist Christians who kill people over what they view as sin and whatnot.

[Republic of the Cristo]

Not really. Jesus never said to kill anyone. Pacifism.

And? There are still extremist Christians who kill people over what they view as sin and whatnot.

Killing people is not Christianity. These are people in direct opposition to Christianity. You have read the bible right? Even if your an atheist, it is usually common knowledge that Jesus was so against violence he said you should welcome a beating.

[Neo Telangana]

Ahh. So you have a problem with democracy when the majority dont agree with your opinion....alright.

I have a problem with democracy when the majority of the people are so backwards that they would kill any man or woman just for leaving Islam, or having sex with someone who is not their spouse. Before any liberal blindly spouts off on the inherent greatness of democracy, I suggest they look at the following statistics:






As you can see, there are quite a few Islamic countries where the substantial majority of people believe that Islamic Sharia should be the law of the land, apostates (people who leave Islam) should be killed, women who commit adultery should be killed, and wives must always obey their husbands at all times. In a pure democracy, what kinds of laws do you think will be made in such countries? Why do secular countries with substantial devout Muslim populations, like Turkey, need the constant supervision of the civilian government by the military? Why did the Egyptian military have to overthrow the Islamist leader Morsi of the Muslim Brotherhood? Morsi won the majority of the Egyptian vote, after all, and the majority of the Egyptian populace supports Islamist policies.

Also, I have no problem with religious people expressing their opinion in public. I only have a problem with them affecting public policy, like banning the teaching of evolution in school, implementing blasphemy laws that prevent any criticism of the religion, advocating harsh punishments (even death) for homosexuals, apostates, and atheists, etc. I support the freedom of speech for all people, even people with the vilest ideologies like Nazis and Islamists.

[Czervenika]

I'm opposed to all religion equally. At least on a state level. On a personal level I frankly don't care what a person believes as long as they don't drag it into the public sphere.

[Washington Resistance Army]

And? There are still extremist Christians who kill people over what they view as sin and whatnot.

Killing people is not Christianity. These are people in direct opposition to Christianity. You have read the bible right? Even if your an atheist, it is usually common knowledge that Jesus was so against violence he said you should welcome a beating.

Yes, I've read the Bible multiple times but groups like the Army of God and whoever else don't care. Extremists are extremists, they might have different beliefs but at the end of the day it all boils down to the same nonsense.