Europe's Problem With Islam

[Herrebrugh]

I'm 99% sure they aren't. It's probably a response to "Geert Wilders isn't radical in my opinion."

I'm not talking about PVV. I'm talking about New Werpland, who just said the equivalent of "banning the Bible isn't radical!" That sort of reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE80NuMkvg8

Geert Wilders isn't radical in my opinion.

Want to limit the number of islamophobes and far right parties in Europe? Cut the immigration from muslim countries.

Banning the quran isn't radical.

[Teemant]

What the heck. Europe is western... I meant Western Europe (which means western part of the Europe) - countries like United Kingdom, Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium, France. These countries have nothing to do with islam in history.

And Spain is not in western Europe all of a sudden? This statement is also false anyway, considering the Franks fought off Iberian Muslims at Tours pre 10th century.

Spain is Southern Europe.

[Valaran]

Ok, but that's only part of Europe. Eastern Europe and Southern Europe is still equally relevant.

I'm from Eastern Europe. All countries here (excluding Russia) have muslim population below 1% (probably like 0.1% or even less).

Thats a plainly wrong statistic, unless Eastern Europe is only Romania upwards

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

Also, my earlier post is heavily added to.

[Threlizdun]

Why is it a problem that some Muslims don't like cartoons? People who want to ban the Qur'an are radical and those who react to cartoons with violence are radical.

Banning a book probably isn't the smartest thing to do but killing other people is far worse in my opinion.

Both are violent acts wrought from intolerance. Both are radical and ought to be opposed.

[New Werpland]

I think there is a minor issue of immigrants in general (not only Islamic ones) not integrating into the 'tolerant' values of many 'Western' countries because of an excess of 'tolerance' itself in those countries.

Exactly.

The problem of Islamaphobia in Europe is definitely something to do with the misconception that being secular requires for the state to be completely neutral. Which as I explained in my previous thread is impossible anyway.

[Martean]

So, there's been a lot of talk in the news lately about Islam in Europe. How Muslims bring terrorism, crime, poverty, etc. They can't be trusted, they're stealing our jobs, you name it. While there's heated debate on this, one thing's for sure—Europe has a problem. That's right, they've got too many damn Islamophobes. People like Geert Wilders, who've said that the Koran is a "fascist book", equivalent to Mein Kampf, and has advocated for a Hijab tax. And yes, this is a man people actually elected. In a real legislative party. Of course, the Netherlands isn't the only country that these radical extremists have affected. We're seeing the poisonous influence of Islamophobia in France, Denmark, Sweden, and more. The rhetoric these parties espouse could be compared to a so-called Religion of Hate. Violence against Muslims in Europe is on the rise, and has grown particularly bad since the 2015 Charlie Hebdo shooting.

So it's clear that we've got a problem here. In my view, Islamophobia is incompatible with European values. Now, let me be clear, I don't hate Islamophobes, I hate Islamophobia. I don't believe there's any such thing as "moderate Islamophobia", even though the majority of Islamophobes aren't violent. There need to be brave souls willing to speak up in the name of free speech, despite an atmosphere of intolerance, against this hatred.

But what do you think we should do? Is this even a problem? Should we work to stop Islamophobic immigration? How can we tackle this?

The problem is EU policies. When you combine austerity with open borders, racism is bound to rise. It's happened in every single instance, in every single country. But the inept kleptocrats in Brussels will boldly carry on. When you combine open borders with austerity, you get the feeling that immigrants are taking your jobs. Since a job is something that we need to survive, that begins to evolve into "hurr durr dem Mozlmez r challingin mah suvival skillz". That in turn creates jobs for those who drive Islamophobia, like Geert Wilders. Yes, there were always racists, and there always will be racists, just like there were always idiots, and there always will be idiots. But just a poor system of education sinks more people into idiocy, so too, the duo of austerity and open borders sink more people into racism, when they're combined. Now combine that with a decrease in teacher salaries...

Not always, indeed, islamophobia has risen more in countries affected less by budget cuts and the crisis, and that even didn't had so much inmigration.

There is the case of Spain, for example. How a country wich has received more than 6 million inmigrants in the past 10 years, with an unemployment rate above 23% and that has been cuting expending hasn't had a wave of racism/islamophobia that in other countries, such as Germany, with a lot less inmigration and doing well economically, it has?

And I can also talk about Portugal or Ireland. No, islamophobia and racism (which are preety the same) are more than a consequence of the crisis.

[Teemant]

I'm from Eastern Europe. All countries here (excluding Russia) have muslim population below 1% (probably like 0.1% or even less).

Thats a plainly wrong statistic, unless Eastern Europe is only Romania upwards

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

Also, my earlier post is heavily added to.

Besides Ukraine (which has 1-7% in this chart) you can see that rest of Eastern Europe isn't even colored.

[Atlanticatia]

I think Europe needs to reevaluate its cultural policies to create a more inclusive society. Muslim immigration - and immigration in general - to places like Canada is very successful and multiculturalism works.

I believe in multiculturalism, and I think that we should all learn from eachothers cultures. However in the European situation, I think interculturalism might work better, to encourage cross-cultural communication, integration, and social cohesion. I think interculturalism could work best given Europe's political, social, and cultural situation. People should not be xenophobic or racist, and the far-right is never okay, but clearly something needs to be done to reduce tensions between ethnic and religious groups - I don't think absolute assimilation nor segregation are the answer.

http://www.debatingeurope.eu/2015/03/26 ... Vt7zZNViko

[Ereria]

The problem with tolerance is that it is a two-way street - it only works if the other side agrees to follow the same rules and be tolerant as well. Unfortunately, just because many Europeans are open-minded, tolerant and willing to accept strangers and their ways does not mean these strangers necessarily share those sentiments.

From the looks of it, most folks who come here from the Third World have no intentions of integrating or adopting European way of life, they merely want to continue with their old ways while enjoying the European living standards.

Islam in particular is an ideology that fundamentally contradicts secular European values on a number of points, and is, unlike secular ideologies, explicitly engineered to be resistant to change. It also quite explicitly rejects tolerance and declares the imposition of Islam as the only way of life as it's long-term ideological imperative. While secular European values tend to exalt plurality and diversity, encouraging individualism and deciding one's own path in life, Islam rejects all that in favour of social and ideological unity, conformity to community standards and religious doctrine.

Hence I think Europeans are very right to be concerned about the Islamization of Europe.

I don't think you should judge immigrants based of 1st generation immigrants. Most of them are 25+ years old and it's very hard to learn a new language at that point. Many of them tries hard to be a part of society, but many of them can't because they lack knowledge in the local language and because they aren't welcomed by the local residents. It's also a lot of immigrants that come into the country and suffer PTSD, without themselves knowing what it is because of lack of education.

It's much better to judge immigrants based of 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants. You have to look at immigration as a long term investment. Their parents might have little knowledge of the language, but their children will go to school and learn the language and learn western values and be valuable members of the society

And btw, know nothing about islam, so please refrain from trying to tell us what it tells us to do. I will gladly (as always) give you the backstory to any 'violent' sura that you throw at me like every islamophobe do and show you that context matters

[Neo Telangana]

Islam is certainly a vile ideology, and the people of Europe have the right to oppose it. However, my only concern is that opposition to Islam may be conflated with racist feelings towards Arabs, Iranians, and other "brown" people. I have no problem whatsoever with anti-Islamic sentiment, but I do have a problem with racism.

[Valaran]

Thats a plainly wrong statistic, unless Eastern Europe is only Romania upwards

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

Also, my earlier post is heavily added to.

Besides Ukraine (which has 1-7% in this chart) you can see that rest of Eastern Europe isn't even colored.

And the Balkans are classified as Eastern Europe too. Serbia alone has over 3%.

You're artificially restricting your field as so to diminish islamic presence in Europe.

And even if we were to take just the Northeast, that's only 7 countries. Not very representative.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

Islam is certainly a vile ideology, and the people of Europe have the right to oppose it. However, my only concern is that opposition to Islam may be conflated with racist feelings towards Arabs, Iranians, and other "brown" people. I have no problem whatsoever with anti-Islamic sentiment, but I do have a problem with racism.

It really isn't.

[Herrebrugh]

The problem with tolerance is that it is a two-way street - it only works if the other side agrees to follow the same rules and be tolerant as well. Unfortunately, just because many Europeans are open-minded, tolerant and willing to accept strangers and their ways does not mean these strangers necessarily share those sentiments.

From the looks of it, most folks who come here from the Third World have no intentions of integrating or adopting European way of life, they merely want to continue with their old ways while enjoying the European living standards.

Islam in particular is an ideology that fundamentally contradicts secular European values on a number of points, and is, unlike secular ideologies, explicitly engineered to be resistant to change. It also quite explicitly rejects tolerance and declares the imposition of Islam as the only way of life as it's long-term ideological imperative. While secular European values tend to exalt plurality and diversity, encouraging individualism and deciding one's own path in life, Islam rejects all that in favour of social and ideological unity, conformity to community standards and religious doctrine.

Hence I think Europeans are very right to be concerned about the Islamization of Europe.

I don't think you should judge immigrants based of 1st generation immigrants. Most of them are 25+ years old and it's very hard to learn a new language at that point. Many of them tries hard to be a part of society, but many of them can't because they lack knowledge in the local language and because they aren't welcomed by the local residents. It's also a lot of immigrants that come into the country and suffer PTSD, without themselves knowing what it is because of lack of education.

It's much better to judge immigrants based of 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants. You have to look at immigration as a long term investment. Their parents might have little knowledge of the language, but their children will go to school and learn the language and learn western values and be valuable members of the society

And btw, know nothing about islam, so please refrain from trying to tell us what it tells us to do. I will gladly (as always) give you the backstory to any 'violent' sura that you throw at me like every islamophobe do and show you that context matters

Are you sure you're not involved in some kind of conspiracy to overthrow western society and instate Sharia law?

[New Werpland]

I think Europe needs to reevaluate its cultural policies to create a more inclusive society. Muslim immigration - and immigration in general - to places like Canada is very successful and multiculturalism works.

I believe in multiculturalism, and I think that we should all learn from eachothers cultures. However in the European situation, I think interculturalism might work better, to encourage cross-cultural communication, integration, and social cohesion. I think interculturalism could work best given Europe's political, social, and cultural situation. People should not be xenophobic or racist, and the far-right is never okay, but clearly something needs to be done to reduce tensions between ethnic and religious groups - I don't think absolute assimilation nor segregation are the answer.

http://www.debatingeurope.eu/2015/03/26 ... Vt7zZNViko

Multiculturalism works in Canada?

I don't think so.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

Besides Ukraine (which has 1-7% in this chart) you can see that rest of Eastern Europe isn't even colored.

And the Balkans are classified as Eastern Europe too. Serbia alone has over 3%.

You're artificially restricting your field as so to diminish islamic presence in Europe.

And even if we were to take just the Northeast, that's only 7 countries. Not very representative.

And Albania and Bosnia are both majority, 40% plus.

[Brabantum]

Does anyone know what those Muslims did to Europe? They tried to invade it, conquer it, destroy it, break it, and a lot more. Does Europe just have to respond like it's nothing? Say America got invaded by Muslims that wanted to convert you all into Muslims, would you respond like it's nothing?

Sorry if I sound anti-Muslim, but I'm just giving my most honest thoughts.

[Teemant]

Besides Ukraine (which has 1-7% in this chart) you can see that rest of Eastern Europe isn't even colored.

And the Balkans are classified as Eastern Europe too. Serbia alone has over 3%.

You're artificially restricting your field as so to diminish islamic presence in Europe.

And even if we were to take just the Northeast, that's only 7 countries. Not very representative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Eu ... oschme.svg

This map shows where Eastern Europe is. According to this map Baltics aren't even in Eastern Europe.

But fact is that Balkans are part of southern Europe.

[Souseiseki]

And Spain is not in western Europe all of a sudden? This statement is also false anyway, considering the Franks fought off Iberian Muslims at Tours pre 10th century.

Spain is Southern Europe.

oh in that case the UK is northern europe

[Bezkoshtovnya]

And Spain is not in western Europe all of a sudden? This statement is also false anyway, considering the Franks fought off Iberian Muslims at Tours pre 10th century.

Spain is Southern Europe.

Your attempts to construct a field fitting your argument aside, it is blatantly false that Europe (yes even west) has nothing to do with Islam in its history.

[Aelex]

And Spain is not in western Europe all of a sudden? This statement is also false anyway, considering the Franks fought off Iberian Muslims at Tours pre 10th century.

Well, one battle happening in the 7th century isn't a "shared history".
Plus, no matter what you could say, Islam was mostly unknow of in Europe even after the crusades to the point were one of the most famous medieval geste "La Chanson de Roland" (whose plot is ironically centered mostly around the muslims) mistook them for polytheists.

[Herrebrugh]

Does anyone know what those Muslims did to Europe? They tried to invade it, conquer it, destroy it, break it, and a lot more. Does Europe just have to respond like it's nothing? Say America got invaded by Muslims that wanted to convert you all into Muslims, would you respond like it's nothing?

Sorry if I sound anti-Muslim, but I'm just giving my most honest thoughts.

Does anyone know what those Christians did to the Middle East? They tried to invade it, conquer it, destroy it, break it, and a lot more. Does the Middle East just have to respond like it's nothing? Say Saudi Arabia got invaded by Christians that wanted to convert you all into Christians, would you respond like it's nothing?

Sorry if I sound anti-Christian, but I'm just giving my most honest thoughts.

[Teemant]

Spain is Southern Europe.

oh in that case the UK is northern europe

Which UK actually is. My mistake. But Northern Europe definitely doesn't have anything to do with islam in it's past.

[Valaran]

Does anyone know what those Muslims did to Europe? They tried to invade it, conquer it, destroy it, break it, and a lot more. Does Europe just have to respond like it's nothing? Say America got invaded by Muslims that wanted to convert you all into Muslims, would you respond like it's nothing?

Sorry if I sound anti-Muslim, but I'm just giving my most honest thoughts.

Gosh, I didn't know we were meant to harbour century old grudges.

Not like we did nothing in return to those muslims, and other ones who weren't European. And that we weren't busy massacring each other.

[Valaran]

And the Balkans are classified as Eastern Europe too. Serbia alone has over 3%.

You're artificially restricting your field as so to diminish islamic presence in Europe.

And even if we were to take just the Northeast, that's only 7 countries. Not very representative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Eu ... oschme.svg

This map shows where Eastern Europe is. According to this map Baltics aren't even in Eastern Europe.

But fact is that Balkans are part of southern Europe.

But they are in this one
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... _of_the_EU).png

Please stop trying to artificially reorder the continent.

[Teemant]

Spain is Southern Europe.

Your attempts to construct a field fitting your argument aside, it is blatantly false that Europe (yes even west) has nothing to do with Islam in its history.

You're the one trying to make Eastern Europe bigger as it is. I wonder how much more south will you go (southern countries). Have you reached South Africa yet?