The Liberal Arts: Do they Matter?

[New Skaaneland]

What does matter is that the thievy bastards are putting tax money into it.

[Hyfling]

Of course they do.

Who else will deliver my pizza?

[Roman Superiority]

Of course they do.

Who else will deliver my pizza?

[SD_Film Artists]

Is this "Liberal Arts" label an American thing? As I haven't heard that term used alot. I'm also surprised to see some subjects in the "Liberal Arts" which would be considered vital and/or carried by alot of Politicians in the UK. Not that I'm suggesting that Liberal Arts shouldn't be vital, but that seems to be the rhetoric that the label is given.

[Risottia]

This came to me from an in-character debate over at the Global Economics and Trade Forum. I believe this is one of the most important issues in education; it's arguably more important than rising costs or public policy.

Is a liberal arts/humanities (i.e. arts, history, literature, philosophy, etc.) focus (i.e. major, minor, concentration, etc.) a worth-while pursuit in a post-secondary education? Should institutions and governments provide funding to the liberal arts to the same extent as the STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics) fields?

Actually, there's a huge difference between arts (music, painting, sculpture, literature, theatre...) and other humanities such as law, archaeology, history, linguistics, ethnography...

[Chestaan]

[b]Is a liberal arts/humanities (i.e. arts, history, literature, philosophy, etc.) focus (i.e. major, minor, concentration, etc.) a worth-while pursuit in a post-secondary education?

No.

It's a circle jerk.

In fairness though, there are a lot of academic circle jerks out there. Like macroeconomics. Or business school. Actually these teach you how make rich people throw money at you for not really doing anything.

How is Macroeconomics a circle-jerk? Do fiscal poilcy, inflation, unemployment, central banks, interest rates etc not matter in the real world? Are there not a plethora of jobs that employ macroeconomists in a non-academic career??

[Forsher]

Is it a financially smart idea? Absolutely not (unless of course, you know someone that can get you a good job, but this applies to literally everything).

Except that's probably bunk.

You are much, much better off in terms of your own well-being doing something that you enjoy than something that you don't just because it pays well. Money in and of itself is pretty irrelevant. It's what it costs to get it and what you can do with it that matters.

Effectively, if you don't like something you have to be paid more (in some shape or form) to do it, to make you think it is more worth it than your next best alternative. However, I would clearly argue that this greater remuneration doesn't really compensate when you factor in your long term mental, emotion and physical health.

Yes. Education should not be to just prepare a person for the labour force, but to develop a person intellectually.

Ah, you poor naive young thing, week one of university will rid you of this misconception. Well, they are slightly less keen on this in Arts papers. Slightly.

Are you sure you didn't mix those two up? There's no way that second design is modern.

Do I detect pedantry? Are you wanting to call that contemporary minimalism or something?

Yeah, that one is modern. The second one, even if it is contemporary, is based off a much older design.

Is it just me, or is this the most difficult game of spot the difference ever?

http://www.contemporist.com/photos/modern_houses_in_china_mon04.jpg

https://www.flickr.com/photos/adamcnelson/523442582/

Different angling is not an appropriate response.

(why do you think apple is liked)

Battery life. They already own an iPod and Apple has deliberately pursued a policy of making everything Apple has work better with other Apple stuff. The iPod, in hindsight, probably salvaged Apple and raised up greater than it was previously... gave it a starting point for marketing genius.

Apple computers look terrible, when you ignore the exterior. Mind you, grey seems to be in vogue these days so maybe I've just been brainwashed into liking colour.

Looking at both those pieces of art, I don't even know what I'm looking at.

One is a giant big guy sitting with a planet in the sky.
Pablo on the other hand, that's just kinda, weird.

Neither had any message, nor very emotional. Music, TV, Video Games, and Books have been many times more emotional and had more of an impact. Seeing a painting of a giant nude guy staring at a moon isn't anything compared to even just seeing a character you love in a movie die or listening to inspiring music. The other one is a fucking nude minotaur.

Art and Poetry > Music > Others forms of media/philosophy/science

You're seriously reducing both those works to just that?

You don't see the torture in the Colossi's face as he stares at the sky? The emptiness of the scene, the vulnerability of him simply sitting there, nothing strikes you? The message of loneliness in this brave, new world we'd discovered in the 19th century with the birth of psychology and new forms of philosophy is absent?

As for Picasso's painting being strange, perhaps that is the point of it. Humanity is strange. That sketch is a self-portrait of Picasso as he saw himself. Animalistic, sexual, primal, violent - all of these come to mind when looking at the image and the best you can say is that it's a "fucking nude minotaur". Really? Seriously?

Music, television, video games, and books, by the way, are all forms of art. If that wasn't clear, you digging on painting does more to discredit your taste in art than it does to discredit a subset of art, specifically static visual expression.

Picasso is over-rated. Not as much as the Mona Lisa is (ugly painting) but he's close to it. That particularly one doesn't evoke anything other than what is best captured with:

um... okay?

It is entirely devoid of the character, emotion and feeling of the other painting you captured. And, indeed, of a lot of Picasso's other work. In short, it looks like the doodle, feels like a doodle and is, really, a doodle... except one of the three most famous artist's ever made it (premise: da Vinci, van Gogh and Picasso = the three most famous artists to contemporary populations).

Art, in this sense, has the potential to capture the full gamut of the human experience (which is, broadly, the area of interest that Arts like history or English are interested in, from an academic perspective). However, that is not to say that what we generally understand by abstract art (i.e. squares and blocks of colour) are actually in touch with an audience outside their peers and their critics. It is a human experience that is probably best represented by some canvas with a tall and narrow white rectangle on it, vertically orientated.

I can tell by skimming the last few pages of this thread that actually reading it in depth would make me unhealthily angry.

Characterising this thread...

ITT people define worth in terms of return on investment, discount the broader nature of what it is to be human and ultimately conclude that explorations of humanity aren't worth bothering with, through the case study of abstract art.

That's not perfect: there is some disagreement.

Is this "Liberal Arts" label an American thing?

In my opinion, absolutely yes.

There is the Arts, which encompasses such things as art, music, drama etc.

Then there is Arts, which describes what you get in the BA (popularly termed the Bugger All) which includes the likes of music and drama, but is more interested in things like history, literature, languages, art history, classics etc. A BA degree may also include things like economics, maths and statistics.

Liberal arts is a term I encounter only on NSG and in American written stuff that I sometimes read elsewhere. It seems to be broadly equivalent to the history, language etc. bit.

[Immoren]

Grammar, logic, rhetoric, arithmetic, geometry, the theory of music, and astronomy are always important pursuits for the Freemen.

[SD_Film Artists]

Is this "Liberal Arts" label an American thing?

In my opinion, absolutely yes.

There is the Arts, which encompasses such things as art, music, drama etc.

Then there is Arts, which describes what you get in the BA (popularly termed the Bugger All) which includes the likes of music and drama, but is more interested in things like history, literature, languages, art history, classics etc. A BA degree may also include things like economics, maths and statistics.

Liberal arts is a term I encounter only on NSG and in American written stuff that I sometimes read elsewhere. It seems to be broadly equivalent to the history, language etc. bit.

Thanks I was wondering that, the same goes for "STEM" which seems to command the most respect despite some of the more respected/"academic" subjects (languages, literature) appearing in what would be "Liberal Arts".

[Immoren]

Is this "Liberal Arts" label an American thing? As I haven't heard that term used alot. I'm also surprised to see some subjects in the "Liberal Arts" which would be considered vital and/or carried by alot of Politicians in the UK. Not that I'm suggesting that Liberal Arts shouldn't be vital, but that seems to be the rhetoric that the label is given.

Liberal arts even as a term seems to predate america quite a while, thought. btw

[Ventelia]

The reason why people question if the Liberal Arts are necessary, all of people know a bit about these subjects, however, everybody pretends as if they are experts of these subjects. I appreciate that everybody has knowledge in these fields, but unfortunately this is not sufficient. In fact, we need people who really are experts on these subjects: history, linguistics, philosophy, arts are important fields for the societal amelioration, therefore I find Liberal Arts are necessary.

By the way, the Liberal Arts do not include the domains such as economics, sociology, political science or international relations. These are social sciences.

[Wanderjar]

The reason why people question if the Liberal Arts are necessary, all of people know a bit about these subjects, however, everybody pretends as if they are experts of these subjects. I appreciate that everybody has knowledge in these fields, but unfortunately this is not sufficient. In fact, we need people who really are experts on these subjects: history, linguistics, philosophy, arts are important fields for the societal amelioration, therefore I find Liberal Arts are necessary.

By the way, the Liberal Arts do not include the domains such as economics, sociology, political science or international relations. These are social sciences.

History is a social science as well, but is unfairly lumped in with liberal arts frequently and mistakenly.

[Aggicificicerous]

Is it just me, or is this the most difficult game of spot the difference ever?

http://www.contemporist.com/photos/mode%20...%20_mon04.jpg

https://www.flickr.com/photos/adamcnelson/523442582/

Different angling is not an appropriate response.

Your first link is no good, but I mixed the two pictures up.

[SD_Film Artists]

The reason why people question if the Liberal Arts are necessary, all of people know a bit about these subjects, however, everybody pretends as if they are experts of these subjects. I appreciate that everybody has knowledge in these fields, but unfortunately this is not sufficient. In fact, we need people who really are experts on these subjects: history, linguistics, philosophy, arts are important fields for the societal amelioration, therefore I find Liberal Arts are necessary.

By the way, the Liberal Arts do not include the domains such as economics, sociology, political science or international relations. These are social sciences.

History is a social science as well, but is unfairly lumped in with liberal arts frequently and mistakenly.

I think the whole catagory of "liberal arts" is a mistake- each subject should be respected in its own right rather than being lumped into two arbitrary groups.

[Immoren]

The reason why people question if the Liberal Arts are necessary, all of people know a bit about these subjects, however, everybody pretends as if they are experts of these subjects. I appreciate that everybody has knowledge in these fields, but unfortunately this is not sufficient. In fact, we need people who really are experts on these subjects: history, linguistics, philosophy, arts are important fields for the societal amelioration, therefore I find Liberal Arts are necessary.

By the way, the Liberal Arts do not include the domains such as economics, sociology, political science or international relations. These are social sciences.

History is a social science as well, but is unfairly lumped in with liberal arts frequently and mistakenly.

"Unfairly", "frequently" and "mistakenly"?

[Willamette Valley]

The reason why people question if the Liberal Arts are necessary, all of people know a bit about these subjects, however, everybody pretends as if they are experts of these subjects. I appreciate that everybody has knowledge in these fields, but unfortunately this is not sufficient. In fact, we need people who really are experts on these subjects: history, linguistics, philosophy, arts are important fields for the societal amelioration, therefore I find Liberal Arts are necessary.

By the way, the Liberal Arts do not include the domains such as economics, sociology, political science or international relations. These are social sciences.

History is a social science as well, but is unfairly lumped in with liberal arts frequently and mistakenly.

History really isn't a social science(Which isn't a bad thing, it just uses different methods), and the social sciences generally are grouped with the liberal arts, at least in the United States. I understand that's not what "liberal arts" originally referred to, but definitions change with time.

[Immoren]

History is a social science as well, but is unfairly lumped in with liberal arts frequently and mistakenly.

History really isn't a social science(Which isn't a bad thing, it just uses different methods), and the social sciences generally are grouped with the liberal arts, at least in the United States. I understand that's not what "liberal arts" originally referred to, but definitions change with time.

We should bring back the term "mechanical arts" into mainstream to refere the engineering and tech. *nods*

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

Don't you mean arts?

[Chestaan]

History is a social science as well, but is unfairly lumped in with liberal arts frequently and mistakenly.

History really isn't a social science(Which isn't a bad thing, it just uses different methods), and the social sciences generally are grouped with the liberal arts, at least in the United States. I understand that's not what "liberal arts" originally referred to, but definitions change with time.

So things like economics and psychology are considered to be liberal arts? If so then I can't see why people would question the value of such degrees.

[Willamette Valley]

History really isn't a social science(Which isn't a bad thing, it just uses different methods), and the social sciences generally are grouped with the liberal arts, at least in the United States. I understand that's not what "liberal arts" originally referred to, but definitions change with time.

So things like economics and psychology are considered to be liberal arts? If so then I can't see why people would question the value of such degrees.

Because most of those majors don't immediately lead to a single career type I guess. A lot of people see college as nothing more than job training.

[Greed and Death]

This came to me from an in-character debate over at the Global Economics and Trade Forum. I believe this is one of the most important issues in education; it's arguably more important than rising costs or public policy.

Is a liberal arts/humanities (i.e. arts, history, literature, philosophy, etc.) focus (i.e. major, minor, concentration, etc.) a worth-while pursuit in a post-secondary education? Should institutions and governments provide funding to the liberal arts to the same extent as the STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics) fields?

Actually, there's a huge difference between arts (music, painting, sculpture, literature, theatre...) and other humanities such as law, archaeology, history, linguistics, ethnography...

Normally I put literature with history and linguistics.

But yeah within liberal arts there are the fine arts painting, music and sculpture, and the humanities which at least have a snowballs chance of getting a job after graduation.

[Geanna]

They promote critical thinking, creativity, and ingenuity. They matter - they're looked down upon sure, but without them, even some fundamental basis for our governments, beliefs, and society would be rather bleak. Critical thinking should be a big thing to learn, I can't help but feel that society is slowly becoming progressively dumber.

[Sagredo]

As much as any education. Completing ANY course beyond High School demonstrates an ability to see through choices and keep working at the same endevour for at least two years. That's employability right there.

It's well known that college graduates on average earn more than those with no college at all. In fact, even college dropouts earn more than those with no college at all. But of course you'd suspect the average for college graduates to be inflated by a few with very high earnings (engineers for instance).

Well it is inflated that way, but that doesn't mean that other qualifications are worthless, or even that they're not worth the student debt.

---

Firstly, let's estimate the lifetime earnings of a worker with no college.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/ ... 2s0232.pdf

High School graduate (no college) earnings at 35-44: $33,614.

Figures are from 2009. Adjusted for inflation: $37,090


Now let's consider Associate degrees (2 year college degree):

http://www.payscale.com/college-salary- ... /associate

Sorted by "mid-career income":

# | Associate degree | Start income | Mid-career income

1 | Management Information Systems (MIS) | $47,100 | $76,800
2 | Computer Engineering (CE) | $40,100 | $76,700
3 | Electrical Engineering (EE) | $49,300 | $75,200
4 | Business & Information Technology (IT) | $37,900 | $74,500
5 | Electrical & Computer Engineering (ECE) | $39,200 | $71,700
6 | Construction Management | $42,900 | $70,600
7 | Occupational Health and Safety | $49,800 | $68,500
8 | Computer Science (CS) | $41,800 | $68,400
8 | Dental Hygiene | $60,400 | $68,400
10 | Mechanical Engineering Technology (MET) | $41,700 | $68,300
11 | Mechanical Engineering (ME) | $42,400 | $68,200
12 | Electronics & Communications Engineering | $45,100 | $68,100
13 | Civil Engineering (CE) | $37,600 | $67,700
14 | Diagnostic Medical Sonography | $50,600 | $66,300
15 | Mathematics | $40,500 | $65,200
15 | Networks & Telecommunications | $43,500 | $65,200
17 | Biomedical Equipment Technology | $41,600 | $65,100
18 | Nursing | $52,300 | $64,500
19 | Electrical Engineering Technology (EET) | $42,900 | $64,200
20 | Mechanical Design | $44,700 | $63,800
21 | Computer Information Systems (CIS) | $39,500 | $63,100
22 | Fashion Design | $36,200 | $63,000
23 | Fire Science | $38,600 | $62,600
23 | Information Systems (IS) | $40,300 | $62,600
25 | Aviation Maintenance Technology | $41,700 | $62,200
26 | Architecture | $39,700 | $61,900
27 | Radiology | $42,200 | $61,800
28 | Chemistry | $33,400 | $61,600
29 | Industrial Technology (IT) | $42,100 | $61,500
30 | Civil Engineering Technology (CET) | $39,000 | $61,400
31 | Radiography | $43,500 | $60,900
32 | Machine Tool Technology | $40,400 | $60,700
33 | Computer Programming | $40,900 | $60,600
34 | Information Technology (IT) | $39,400 | $60,300
35 | Electronics & Computer Technology | $39,400 | $60,000
36 | Heating, Ventilation, Air Conditioning, & Refrigeration (HVAC) Studies | $35,600 | $59,400
36 | Occupational Therapy Assistant (OTA) Studies | $50,000 | $59,400
38 | Radiologic Technology | $44,300 | $59,200
39 | Electrician Studies | $35,900 | $58,900
39 | Electronics Engineering Technology (EET) | $41,100 | $58,900
41 | Welding Technology | $38,000 | $58,100
42 | Network Administration | $40,400 | $57,800
43 | Respiratory Care | $44,400 | $57,600
44 | Multimedia & Web Design | $37,500 | $57,500
45 | Computer Aided Drafting & Design (CADD) | $39,000 | $57,400
46 | Drafting & Design | $36,300 | $57,300
47 | Physical Therapist Assistant Studies | $46,900 | $56,600
48 | Respiratory Therapy | $44,700 | $56,400
49 | Drafting Technology | $31,000 | $56,200
50 | Computer & Network Administration | $40,500 | $55,900
51 | Computer Networking Systems | $38,800 | $55,800
52 | Diesel Technology | $38,400 | $54,700
53 | Network Technology | $40,300 | $54,100
54 | Finance | $31,700 | $53,900
55 | Architectural Technology | $36,500 | $53,300
56 | Business & Marketing | $34,800 | $53,000
57 | Advertising & Graphic Design | $32,000 | $52,800
58 | English Language | $29,300 | $52,700
59 | Visual Communications | $34,800 | $52,500
60 | Communication | $33,400 | $52,400
61 | Computer Aided Drafting (CAD) | $35,900 | $51,500
62 | General Business | $34,800 | $51,200
63 | Culinary Arts & Culinary Management | $31,100 | $50,700
63 | Mortuary Science | $32,000 | $50,700
65 | General Science | $32,300 | $50,400
66 | Clinical Laboratory Science | $37,500 | $50,300
67 | Biology | $31,600 | $50,200
67 | History | $33,700 | $50,200
69 | Business Administration | $34,200 | $49,800
69 | Business Management & Marketing | $32,500 | $49,800
71 | Hospitality & Tourism | $31,200 | $49,600
72 | Health Sciences | $29,800 | $48,900
73 | Accounting & Finance | $35,500 | $48,800
74 | Graphic Communication | $32,000 | $48,700
75 | Law Enforcement | $31,400 | $48,600
75 | Marketing & Management | $32,600 | $48,600
77 | Graphic Design | $31,800 | $48,500
78 | Automotive Technology | $30,700 | $48,300
79 | Architectural Drafting | $40,100 | $48,200
79 | Paralegal Studies | $31,900 | $48,200
81 | Applied Science | $34,600 | $48,100
82 | Culinary Arts & Food Service Management | $30,800 | $48,000
82 | Human Resources Management (HRM) | $35,600 | $48,000
84 | Hospitality Management | $32,800 | $47,900
85 | Culinary Arts | $29,400 | $47,600
86 | Political Science (PolySci) | $33,700 | $47,400
86 | Sociology | $29,500 | $47,400
88 | General Studies | $31,200 | $47,000
89 | Health Information Management | $32,900 | $46,900
90 | Fashion Merchandising | $32,900 | $46,300
90 | Liberal Arts | $31,300 | $46,300
92 | Criminal Justice | $30,400 | $46,000
92 | Human Resources (HR) | $31,600 | $46,000
94 | Surgical Technology | $35,000 | $45,800
95 | Photography | $31,300 | $45,400
96 | Interior Design | $33,000 | $45,100
96 | Medical Laboratory Technology | $34,100 | $45,100
98 | Accounting | $32,500 | $44,300
98 | Medical Laboratory Technician | $34,600 | $44,300
100 | Accounting & Business | $33,700 | $44,200
100 | Psychology | $28,900 | $44,200
102 | Practical Nursing | $36,700 | $43,600
103 | Social Science | $31,200 | $43,000
104 | Health Care Administration | $29,400 | $41,900
105 | Dental Assisting | $31,000 | $41,800
106 | Horticulture | $30,900 | $40,800
107 | Administrative Assistant & Secretarial Science | $27,300 | $40,700
108 | Health Information Technology | $30,800 | $38,700
108 | Office Administration | $26,900 | $38,700
110 | Human Services (HS) | $28,000 | $37,000
111 | Veterinary Technology | $26,800 | $36,200
112 | Pastry & Culinary Arts | $24,800 | $36,100
113 | Elementary Education | $25,500 | $35,800
114 | Education | $29,100 | $35,000
115 | Medical Secretarial Science | $25,800 | $34,700
116 | Medical Assisting | $26,600 | $34,300
117 | Medical Office Administration | $26,300 | $34,100
118 | Health & Medical Services Administration | $27,600 | $33,100
119 | Medical Billing & Coding | $29,300 | $32,900
120 | Child Development | $22,700 | $30,800
121 | Early Childhood Education | $23,000 | $29,500

"Liberal Arts" is well down the list, with a starting income of $30,300 and a mid-career income of $46,300.

But that's still more than a worker with no college education at all!

Furthermore, some courses considered "liberal arts" like Philosophy ($40.7 K and $84.0 K) and English Literature ($40.6 K and $76.5 K) are considerably better earners.

At the very bottom of the list are some degrees which (without further qualifications) are no better a meal ticket than a high school diploma. If a student had to take a loan to get such a degree, and missed two years of work experience and earnings, they'd actually be poorer for having studied. I put those in red. (Payscale.com define "mid-career" as "with ten years of experience" which would usually be younger than "mid-career" as I estimated from the Census info).

But "liberal arts" are not at the bottom of the list. At all.

[Naigeriya]

For some fields, yes they do matter.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

For some fields, yes they do matter.

Everything doesn't have to revolve around a fucking job.