We Do Not Kneel

[Infected Mushroom]

In the OP I tell you what the dictator SAYS to you as you are about to be executed.

I never told you whether or not he will go through with his word or whether or not he will ''keep his promise'' in some twisted way to make sure you get killed while maximising his political gain and your humiliation.

I'm surprised at the large number of posters who just go... ''Hahaha. I'm smarter than the Dictator. I'll just say I ''kneel'' and then betray him later. I'm so Smart.''

No where in the OP did I say that the Dictatorship was stupid. I don't know how people get there and just assume it. Read every word in the OP... very VERY carefully.

I only tell you what the dictator has said to you. Never what he will actually do. The dictator makes a representation to you, it's up to you to interpret his intentions.

I consider it foolhardy to think that you can outsmart him.

So your OP should actually read:

"Do you refuse the dictator's offer, and get executed, or do you accept the dictator's offer, and get executed."

Stop being so disingenuous. There is nothing "honourable" about twisting words to try and make people look foolish. That's the sort of thing Petyr Baelish would do. Eddard Stark would never try to humiliate someone, he would never try to deceive people.

I guess what I'm saying is, fuck off with your bullshit.

I have not twisted any words.

If you read the OP very carefully and clearly (without injecting your own biases) you'll see what the literal words add up to.

In the third sentence, the start of the first major paragraph, it starts with ''You are told that''...

I wrote the OP very very carefully, like a contract. If there are errors and people catch them I make sure to edit them as soon as I can. But when I write the OPs, I do so with a very clear scenario in mind.

I don't know WHY people thought this dilemma was Kneel And Live and Betray The Dictator = I'm Smart vs Don't Kneel and Die.

I never set it out like that. People chose to go there.

[Finland SSR]

So your OP should actually read:

"Do you refuse the dictator's offer, and get executed, or do you accept the dictator's offer, and get executed."

Stop being so disingenuous. There is nothing "honourable" about twisting words to try and make people look foolish. That's the sort of thing Petyr Baelish would do. Eddard Stark would never try to humiliate someone, he would never try to deceive people.

I guess what I'm saying is, fuck off with your bullshit.

I have not twisted any words.

If you read the OP very carefully and clearly (without injecting your own biases) you'll see what the literal words add up to.

In the third sentence, the start of the first major paragraph, it starts with ''You are told that''...

I wrote the OP very very carefully, like a contract. If there are errors and people catch them I make sure to edit them as soon as I can. But when I write the OPs, I do so with a very clear scenario in mind.

I don't know WHY people thought this dilemma was Kneel And Live and Betray The Dictator = I'm Smart vs Don't Kneel and Die.

I never set it out like that. People chose to go there.

If the dictator already told his troops to capture you alive and not just shoot on the spot, I'm pretty sure he still has some sense of honor.

[Camicon]

So your OP should actually read:

"Do you refuse the dictator's offer, and get executed, or do you accept the dictator's offer, and get executed."

Stop being so disingenuous. There is nothing "honourable" about twisting words to try and make people look foolish. That's the sort of thing Petyr Baelish would do. Eddard Stark would never try to humiliate someone, he would never try to deceive people.

I guess what I'm saying is, fuck off with your bullshit.

I have not twisted any words.
*snip*

That's all you've done, and that's all you do. Like I said, fuck off with your bullshit.

[Infected Mushroom]

I have not twisted any words.
*snip*

That's all you've done, and that's all you do. Like I said, fuck off with your bullshit.

No, I've just been arguing from the words as they stand on their plain meaning.

Do you see a sentence in the OP that says ''You can assume that in this situation the authoritarian government will HONOR its agreement in good faith''?

No?

Then who's twisting things?

Its not me.

[Shnercropolis]

Of course I kneel. I don't feel strongly enough about anything to die for it.

[Finland SSR]

That's all you've done, and that's all you do. Like I said, fuck off with your bullshit.

No, I've just been arguing from the words as they stand on their plain meaning.

Do you see a sentence in the OP that says ''You can assume that in this situation the authoritarian government will HONOR its agreement in good faith''?

No?

Then who's twisting things?

Its not me.

I have not twisted any words.

If you read the OP very carefully and clearly (without injecting your own biases) you'll see what the literal words add up to.

In the third sentence, the start of the first major paragraph, it starts with ''You are told that''...

I wrote the OP very very carefully, like a contract. If there are errors and people catch them I make sure to edit them as soon as I can. But when I write the OPs, I do so with a very clear scenario in mind.

I don't know WHY people thought this dilemma was Kneel And Live and Betray The Dictator = I'm Smart vs Don't Kneel and Die.

I never set it out like that. People chose to go there.

If the dictator already told his troops to capture you alive and not just shoot on the spot, I'm pretty sure he still has some sense of honor.

[Infected Mushroom]

I have not twisted any words.

If you read the OP very carefully and clearly (without injecting your own biases) you'll see what the literal words add up to.

In the third sentence, the start of the first major paragraph, it starts with ''You are told that''...

I wrote the OP very very carefully, like a contract. If there are errors and people catch them I make sure to edit them as soon as I can. But when I write the OPs, I do so with a very clear scenario in mind.

I don't know WHY people thought this dilemma was Kneel And Live and Betray The Dictator = I'm Smart vs Don't Kneel and Die.

I never set it out like that. People chose to go there.

If the dictator already told his troops to capture you alive and not just shoot on the spot, I'm pretty sure he still has some sense of honor.

Maybe.

Again, the OP doesn't say. You'll supposed to argue based on what you think an authoritarian government is likely to do.

You can choose to think that they'll likely honour their promise if that's your intuition about how dictatorships tend to act.

Personally though, the biggest flaw in any argument that says "Kneeling is Smart because the Dictatorship will honour its deal in Good Faith and then I can betray them and live to fight another day in a meaningful way instead'' is that it assumes the dictatorship will keep its word when in the real world, they have every instinct, incentive, and reason not to.

[Conscentia]

Harelia does not kneel. Capture demands suicide. Only the weak kneel. The strong die with honor.

Natural selection favours the humble.

[Salus Maior]

They become "right and noble" in the eyes of their sympathizers and thus gain more support regardless of your cause.

I mean really, are we questioning the power of martyrdom? Time and time again throughout history it has been proven that martyrdom can invigorate or rally a cause even in a hopeless situation.

Know what else is useful? People who aren't dead.

Considering you were incompetent enough to be captured by your enemy, how useful were you really to your cause?

Anyway, your previous point of being able to obtain weapons if you knelt is not exactly true in this particular scenario. You and your band are deported off to fight in the Dictatorship's foreign wars to act as slave soldiers. Sure, you get weapons, but you're in the wrong country.
And in a real life scenario such a thing would not make sense, obviously if you made peace with your authoritarian enemy on their terms your movement would be disarmed and you would more than likely not have the freedom to go as you please without the government keeping a very close eye on you (if they didn't just execute you anyway after humiliating you).

[Salus Maior]

If the dictator already told his troops to capture you alive and not just shoot on the spot, I'm pretty sure he still has some sense of honor.

Not if he intends on publicly humiliating you and/or publicly execute you.

[Ifreann]

If the dictator already told his troops to capture you alive and not just shoot on the spot, I'm pretty sure he still has some sense of honor.

Maybe.

Again, the OP doesn't say. You'll supposed to argue based on what you think an authoritarian government is likely to do.

You can choose to think that they'll likely honour their promise if that's your intuition about how dictatorships tend to act.

Personally though, the biggest flaw in any argument that says "Kneeling is Smart because the Dictatorship will honour its deal in Good Faith and then I can betray them and live to fight another day in a meaningful way instead'' is that it assumes the dictatorship will keep its word when in the real world, they have every instinct, incentive, and reason not to.

It doesn't matter if they keep their word, as has been pointed out to you. Either you definitely die now, or you live for now and die and some point in the future.

[Infected Mushroom]

Know what else is useful? People who aren't dead.

Considering you were incompetent enough to be captured by your enemy, how useful were you really to your cause?

Anyway, your previous point of being able to obtain weapons if you knelt is not exactly true in this particular scenario. You and your band are deported off to fight in the Dictatorship's foreign wars to act as slave soldiers. Sure, you get weapons, but you're in the wrong country.
And in a real life scenario such a thing would not make sense, obviously if you made peace with your authoritarian enemy on their terms your movement would be disarmed and you would more than likely not have the freedom to go as you please without the government keeping a very close eye on you (if they didn't just execute you anyway after humiliating you).

you make a good point

[Vallermoore]

I think I would kneel and live.

[Infected Mushroom]

Maybe.

Again, the OP doesn't say. You'll supposed to argue based on what you think an authoritarian government is likely to do.

You can choose to think that they'll likely honour their promise if that's your intuition about how dictatorships tend to act.

Personally though, the biggest flaw in any argument that says "Kneeling is Smart because the Dictatorship will honour its deal in Good Faith and then I can betray them and live to fight another day in a meaningful way instead'' is that it assumes the dictatorship will keep its word when in the real world, they have every instinct, incentive, and reason not to.

It doesn't matter if they keep their word, as has been pointed out to you. Either you definitely die now, or you live for now and die and some point in the future.

That is true. But the question is, is it worth it? The loss of your honour? And you don't know how much longer

[Shnercropolis]

If the dictator already told his troops to capture you alive and not just shoot on the spot, I'm pretty sure he still has some sense of honor.

Not if he intends on publicly humiliating you and/or publicly execute you.

Does this dictator have a reputation for doing that? Is the dictator's government highly organized or more like a junta? Unless we have a lot more information, we can't accurately determine whether that consideration matters or not.

[Camicon]

That's all you've done, and that's all you do. Like I said, fuck off with your bullshit.

No, I've just been arguing from the words as they stand on their plain meaning.

Do you see a sentence in the OP that says ''You can assume that in this situation the authoritarian government will HONOR its agreement in good faith''?

No?

Then who's twisting things?

Its not me.

Including an entire section of your OP where you explain what is supposed to happen to you should you choose to kneel, and then backtracking by saying "Oh, well, I never explicitly said that those things will happen if you kneel", is unethical at best. And you know that. You set up the scenario in the OP to be a thought experiment where we, the responders, are forced to choose between the "right" action (resulting in death) and the "bad" option (resulting in life) as a way to measure our dedication to our core principles. So, yeah, you're twisting words to try and make people look foolish.

FOWYB

[Finland SSR]

If the dictator already told his troops to capture you alive and not just shoot on the spot, I'm pretty sure he still has some sense of honor.

Not if he intends on publicly humiliating you and/or publicly execute you.

Whatever makes you live just a bit longer, huh? I can check my NS status in 10 seconds, 5 of which are to log in.

Also, a bit more, if we would talk about you being honored by your followers only if you give up, I'm sure that's not a big deal.
People like to idealize historic figures, no matter what they do. A lot of the rebels that we like today had a habit of plundering villages and demanding requisitions, for example. I'm sure this hypothetical rebellion also did similar things to feed itself - where do you get the supplies if you fight against the country you live in?

[Ifreann]

Know what else is useful? People who aren't dead.

Considering you were incompetent enough to be captured by your enemy, how useful were you really to your cause?

Useful enough to be made the leader. Which doesn't bode well for suggestions that the rebellion will be better off with me as a martyr.

Anyway, your previous point of being able to obtain weapons if you knelt is not exactly true in this particular scenario. You and your band are deported off to fight in the Dictatorship's foreign wars to act as slave soldiers. Sure, you get weapons, but you're in the wrong country.

I would have called the country I was invading the right country.

And in a real life scenario such a thing would not make sense, obviously if you made peace with your authoritarian enemy on their terms your movement would be disarmed and you would more than likely not have the freedom to go as you please without the government keeping a very close eye on you (if they didn't just execute you anyway after humiliating you).

Gosh, I guess my rebellion might have to lie and hide and steal. How awful. Clearly I should have let myself be killed.

[Salus Maior]

Not if he intends on publicly humiliating you and/or publicly execute you.

Does this dictator have a reputation for doing that? Is the dictator's government highly organized or more like a junta? Unless we have a lot more information, we can't accurately determine whether that consideration matters or not.

If you do not kneel, they will sentence you to die in a very unpleasant manner in front of your followers.

I would say yes, this dictatorship is capable of that. Not to mention that you have to publicly kneel to said dictator for peace to happen. If he wasn't intent on humiliating you, wouldn't we be signing a treaty somewhere rather than that?

[Conscentia]

[...]
Personally though, the biggest flaw in any argument that says "Kneeling is Smart because the Dictatorship will honour its deal in Good Faith and then I can betray them and live to fight another day in a meaningful way instead'' is that it assumes the dictatorship will keep its word when in the real world, they have every instinct, incentive, and reason not to.

It's not about good faith, as I explained in the part of post back there that you ignored.

It's not about trust. One option results in certain death. The other option might not result in death.
Even an option that provides a 1 in 10 thousand chance of survival is better than one that provides 0 chance of survival.

[Ifreann]

It doesn't matter if they keep their word, as has been pointed out to you. Either you definitely die now, or you live for now and die and some point in the future.

That is true. But the question is, is it worth it? The loss of your honour?

It was worth it for Torrhen Stark.

And you don't know how much longer

As is typical for humans.

[Infected Mushroom]

[...]
Personally though, the biggest flaw in any argument that says "Kneeling is Smart because the Dictatorship will honour its deal in Good Faith and then I can betray them and live to fight another day in a meaningful way instead'' is that it assumes the dictatorship will keep its word when in the real world, they have every instinct, incentive, and reason not to.

It's not about good faith, as I explained in the part of post back there that you ignored.

It's not about trust. One option results in certain death. The other option might not result in death.
Even an option that provides a 1 in 10 thousand chance of survival is better than one that provides 0 chance of survival.

That argument sits fine with me. Just be aware that your ''increased survival'' might not be much in practice (it may even be just a few additional seconds). But yes, you are gambling for at least some increased probability of a higher extension, it just might be a SLIGHT extension.

I have no problem with that theoretical argument. If you value length of life for its own sake.

The argument that sits less well with me is those that go

''I'll pretend to kneel and then later on I'll betray the dictatorship because I'm so much smarter than the dictatorship.''

I think those types of arguments assume too much and necessarily require some assumed stupidity/incompetence/naivety on the part of the dictatorship. Yet in the OP nowhere did I say we are to throw out our common sense intuition/experience/knowledge about how dictatorships and authoritarian regimes tend to operate.

[Salus Maior]

1.Useful enough to be made the leader. Which doesn't bode well for suggestions that


2.I would have called the country I was invading the right country.

3.Gosh, I guess my rebellion might have to lie and hide and steal. How awful. Clearly I should have let myself be killed.

1. A leader who failed his charge.

2. So, instead of a revolutionary movement your band is an invading horde out to carve land for itself? Have fun being ISIS.

3. I fail to see how any of those helps you, personally. You'd still be under watch by the Dictatorship, and I doubt you could get away with suspicious behavior without shit hitting the fan. And if you say that your rebellion can function without you, then what's the point of you living and kneeling in the first place?

[Shnercropolis]

Does this dictator have a reputation for doing that? Is the dictator's government highly organized or more like a junta? Unless we have a lot more information, we can't accurately determine whether that consideration matters or not.

If you do not kneel, they will sentence you to die in a very unpleasant manner in front of your followers.

I would say yes, this dictatorship is capable of that. Not to mention that you have to publicly kneel to said dictator for peace to happen. If he wasn't intent on humiliating you, wouldn't we be signing a treaty somewhere rather than that?

If you kneel, you're no longer a threat to power, and anyone sensible would let you off with a prison sentence at most. Does this dictatorship have a history of going back on deals? Again, are they more organized or a bunch of thugs with guns? Is the dictator an idiot or smart?

[The Nuclear Fist]

It's not about good faith, as I explained in the part of post back there that you ignored.

That argument sits fine with me. Just be aware that your ''increased survival'' might not be much in practice (it may even be just a few additional seconds). But yes, you are gambling for at least some increased probability of a higher extension, it just might be a SLIGHT extension.

I have no problem with that theoretical argument. If you value length of life for its own sake.

The argument that sits less well with me is those that go

''I'll pretend to kneel and then later on I'll betray the dictatorship because I'm so much smarter than the dictatorship.''

I think those types of arguments assume too much and necessarily require some assumed stupidity/incompetence/naivety on the part of the dictatorship. Yet in the OP nowhere did I say we are to throw out our common sense intuition/experience/knowledge about how dictatorships and authoritarian regimes tend to operate.

It sounds like we found the glaring flaw in your honor before reason thought experiment and so you suddenly twisted the wording of the OP to try and invalidate our arguments.

In other words, it sounds like you're being disingenuous out of spite.