We Do Not Kneel

[Ifreann]

Yeah, because they would totally give their enemies the same grade weapons. And the foreign power will obviously be a good force and allow you to create your state. It just doesn't work that easily, because dictators, for the most part, aren't idiots.

They want the army to lead the charge against the foreign enemy, obviously the dictator won't arm them with pitchforks. Its irrelevant what kind of force the foreign power is, there is a common enemy to be fought - we split the spoils of war and sort out disagreements after overthrowing the dictator with second war if that is what it takes. The revolutionaries will be in better place with weapons and boosted moral of victory against the dictator and the country will have one leader to unite forces behind; its not a loose either way.

Fuck all the kings, steal a boat, sail to the Summer Isles, worship the god of tits and wine. Sorted.

[Great Nepal]

They want the army to lead the charge against the foreign enemy, obviously the dictator won't arm them with pitchforks. Its irrelevant what kind of force the foreign power is, there is a common enemy to be fought - we split the spoils of war and sort out disagreements after overthrowing the dictator with second war if that is what it takes. The revolutionaries will be in better place with weapons and boosted moral of victory against the dictator and the country will have one leader to unite forces behind; its not a loose either way.

Fuck all the kings, steal a boat, sail to the Summer Isles, worship the god of tits and wine. Sorted.

If I loose the second war, thats what I will do... and take what I can loot from the city on the way. All things considered though, I would prefer a crown over summer isles...

[Pandeeria]

I would kneel, walk out and then when the government arms the revolutionaries with their arms to fight this foreign war I would rise up again - maybe even talk to this foreign leader and wage unified fronted war; after all words are nothing but wind.

Yeah, because they would totally give their enemies the same grade weapons. And the foreign power will obviously be a good force and allow you to create your state. It just doesn't work that easily, because dictators, for the most part, aren't idiots.

Actually, it is very likely the foreign power would work with the Revolutionaries.

A better assumption would be, the foreign power backstabs the Revolutionaries once the dictatorship is overthrown. However as pointed out, with renewed moral and what not, the foreign power would probably be beat back considering that foreign power just fought a whole war. At worst, you'd probably have to concede some land to the foreign power but that's about it.

[Ifreann]

Fuck all the kings, steal a boat, sail to the Summer Isles, worship the god of tits and wine. Sorted.

If I loose the second war, thats what I will do... and take what I can loot from the city on the way. All things considered though, I would prefer a crown over summer isles...

You must not understand the concept of a god of tits and wine.

[Scepez]

Yeah, because they would totally give their enemies the same grade weapons. And the foreign power will obviously be a good force and allow you to create your state. It just doesn't work that easily, because dictators, for the most part, aren't idiots.

Actually, it is very likely the foreign power would work with the Revolutionaries.

A better assumption would be, the foreign power backstabs the Revolutionaries once the dictatorship is overthrown. However as pointed out, with renewed moral and what not, the foreign power would probably be beat back considering that foreign power just fought a whole war. At worst, you'd probably have to concede some land to the foreign power but that's about it.

A good example would be the Baltic nations in WWII. When the USSR first invaded we (as in Estonia) surrendered without much casualties, which may or may not have been a good idea, no-one knows for sure. We started a guerilla war against them, and when Nazi Germany came knocking on the door, we thought they were liberators. They we're not. They conscripted those who fought against the USSR to use in their army, and in no way was Nazi Germany EVER going to let us be an independent nation. We we're just like all the other nations in the Lebensraum scheme. Then the USSR re-invaded, and did they give us independence? No, of course not. Occupied for almost half a century.

[Pandeeria]

Actually, it is very likely the foreign power would work with the Revolutionaries.

A better assumption would be, the foreign power backstabs the Revolutionaries once the dictatorship is overthrown. However as pointed out, with renewed moral and what not, the foreign power would probably be beat back considering that foreign power just fought a whole war. At worst, you'd probably have to concede some land to the foreign power but that's about it.

A good example would be the Baltic nations in WWII. When the USSR first invaded we (as in Estonia) surrendered without much casualties, which may or may not have been a good idea, no-one knows for sure. We started a guerilla war against them, and when Nazi Germany came knocking on the door, we thought they were liberators. They we're not. They conscripted those who fought against the USSR to use in their army, and in no way was Nazi Germany EVER going to let us be an independent nation. We we're just like all the other nations in the Lebensraum scheme. Then the USSR re-invaded, and did they give us independence? No, of course not. Occupied for almost half a century.

And? That's little 'ol Estonia being occupied by two different power houses. And not very similar to the situation we're discussing.

[Scepez]

A good example would be the Baltic nations in WWII. When the USSR first invaded we (as in Estonia) surrendered without much casualties, which may or may not have been a good idea, no-one knows for sure. We started a guerilla war against them, and when Nazi Germany came knocking on the door, we thought they were liberators. They we're not. They conscripted those who fought against the USSR to use in their army, and in no way was Nazi Germany EVER going to let us be an independent nation. We we're just like all the other nations in the Lebensraum scheme. Then the USSR re-invaded, and did they give us independence? No, of course not. Occupied for almost half a century.

And? That's little 'ol Estonia being occupied by two different power houses. And not very similar to the situation we're discussing.

The USSR was a Dictatorship and there was a revolution/uprising, and there's foreign powers involved. It's actually pretty relevant to what we're discussing, minus the leader being forced to kneel.

[Pandeeria]

And? That's little 'ol Estonia being occupied by two different power houses. And not very similar to the situation we're discussing.

The USSR was a Dictatorship and there was a revolution/uprising, and there's foreign powers involved. It's actually pretty relevant to what we're discussing, minus the leader being forced to kneel.

Estonia wasn't a Revolution, it was an independent state.

[Great Nepal]

And? That's little 'ol Estonia being occupied by two different power houses. And not very similar to the situation we're discussing.

The USSR was a Dictatorship and there was a revolution/uprising, and there's foreign powers involved. It's actually pretty relevant to what we're discussing, minus the leader being forced to kneel.

Except in this scenario, the dictator is invading the foreign nation more analogous to Estonia invading USSR. Assuming the dictator is not a compete madman with delusional fantasies, both nations in the hypothetical are similar in size and strength.

[Scepez]

The USSR was a Dictatorship and there was a revolution/uprising, and there's foreign powers involved. It's actually pretty relevant to what we're discussing, minus the leader being forced to kneel.

Estonia wasn't a Revolution, it was an independent state.

Not when it was occupied it wasn't, despite the doctrine stating it was.

[Conscentia]

Kneel - I like being alive, I think I'd rather keep doing it.
1. Who's to say my "followers" would surrender just because I've knelt? Are my followers lemmings? What kind of terrible revolution am I running where we don't have a plan in the event that I'm captured?
2. If survive the war I'm sent off to fight, who's to say I couldn't launch a second attempt at a revolution? What's to stop us from deserting? Or taking the foreign land for ourselves? What's to stop us defecting to the other side?

[Pandeeria]

Estonia wasn't a Revolution, it was an independent state.

Not when it was occupied it wasn't, despite the doctrine stating it was.

You're not understanding what I'm trying to say. Estonia was a country, not a movement.

In this situation, both countries are probably roughly equal.

[Aboveland]

I wouldn't kneel in the hopes that my devout followers would revolt against my execution and save me from death.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Kneelihg is better. It gives you a chance to overthrow the dictator.

[Scepez]

Not when it was occupied it wasn't, despite the doctrine stating it was.

You're not understanding what I'm trying to say. Estonia was a country, not a movement.

In this situation, both countries are probably roughly equal.

I do understand, but at the time of the occupation, the "Forest Brothers" we're a movement to restore independence. There was a country, yes, but a movement did exist, which was independent from the Government in-Exile.

[Great Nepal]

I wouldn't kneel in the hopes that my devout followers would revolt against my execution and save me from death.

More likely scenarios:
Best case: Your followers enact your secret directives for succession in event you were captured or killed - you have those right? You die, revolution continues and someone else gets the crown.
Worst case: Your followers completely ignore your secret directives for succession (seriously, who the fuck doesn't have this as revolution leader) and there is an ill-thought out uprising. They get crushed and you get executed.

[Great Nepal]

You're not understanding what I'm trying to say. Estonia was a country, not a movement.

In this situation, both countries are probably roughly equal.

I do understand, but at the time of the occupation, the "Forest Brothers" we're a movement to restore independence. There was a country, yes, but a movement did exist, which was independent from the Government in-Exile.

But under no circumstances, even with Hitler himself at helms of Estonia, would Estonia try to launch a invasion of USSR.

[Conscentia]

I wouldn't kneel in the hopes that my devout followers would revolt against my execution and save me from death.

That's a bit of an excessive risk to take with yourself - no wonder you got caught.

[Scepez]

I do understand, but at the time of the occupation, the "Forest Brothers" we're a movement to restore independence. There was a country, yes, but a movement did exist, which was independent from the Government in-Exile.

But under no circumstances, even with Hitler himself at helms of Estonia, would Estonia try to launch a invasion of USSR.

The goal was never an invasion of the USSR, it was a clear-cut "We want our country back pl0x." Arguably we did technically invade the USSR (or at least the seeds of it) in the War of Independence, but that's a whole different story, and has little to nothing to do with this.

[Great Nepal]

But under no circumstances, even with Hitler himself at helms of Estonia, would Estonia try to launch a invasion of USSR.

The goal was never an invasion of the USSR, it was a clear-cut "We want our country back pl0x." Arguably we did technically invade the USSR (or at least the seeds of it) in the War of Independence, but that's a whole different story, and has little to nothing to do with this.

You see, but in this scenario the dictator is launching invasion of foreign nation-proper. There is no oppression, no occupation or anything of the kind just one government deciding to invade another of its own accord. From this we can infer that both nations are of similar strengths, as no country would declare an offensive war that it would obviously loose.

[AquilaJordyn]

"My one regret is that i have but one life to lose for my country"-Nathaniel Hale. see i said i wouldn't kneel. I know if it were something i cared about, i would do anything for it. But the question is, would i actually go through with it? we can say "Oh yeah, i wouldn't bow" but few would have the strength to actually do so. I'm very stubborn, and I don't get pressured out of things, I live my life based on my morality, what i hold to be right and just, I don't care the effects, So i feel I could do it. Die for a cause I believe in. If you give in they win. And I just thought about what id die for, and theirs no way I would ever let the enemy win, I hate losing, hate it. They wouldn't defeat me, It would be more painful than death, you would live the rest of your life knowing you gave in. The only reason id ever give in is if i could desert the army and join the opposing side, but that's unlikely, so give in, just to fight another day. And I agree, somethings are more important than life and death. I've always believed Honor, chivalry, nobility, the old virtues, are important. The worlds sorely lacking in all three.

[Scepez]

The goal was never an invasion of the USSR, it was a clear-cut "We want our country back pl0x." Arguably we did technically invade the USSR (or at least the seeds of it) in the War of Independence, but that's a whole different story, and has little to nothing to do with this.

You see, but in this scenario the dictator is launching invasion of foreign nation-proper. There is no oppression, no occupation or anything of the kind just one government deciding to invade another of its own accord. From this we can infer that both nations are of similar strengths, as no country would declare an offensive war that it would obviously loose.

See: Both World Wars, Vietnam War, Korean War. There have been situations like that.

[Pandeeria]

You see, but in this scenario the dictator is launching invasion of foreign nation-proper. There is no oppression, no occupation or anything of the kind just one government deciding to invade another of its own accord. From this we can infer that both nations are of similar strengths, as no country would declare an offensive war that it would obviously loose.

See: Both World Wars, Vietnam War, Korean War. There have been situations like that.

The world wars were pretty close. If Germany in either of the wars played their cards differently, they could've have something a lot closer to winning than what actually did happen.

For the vietnam war, it was very clear that the US was going to win. Us being one of the two superpowers of the world, it would be logical to assume we could've taken on a impoverished east-asian country. But the US lost. Not because it actually was beaten, but because the war simply was not worth it after a while. Due to internal pressure and other matters, we had to pull out.

What are you even talking about with the Korean war? The Korean war is technically still going on.

[Benian Republic]

No, fight to the bloody end until your homeland is totally freed from the oppressive dictatorship.

[Pandeeria]

No, fight to the bloody end until your homeland is totally freed from the oppressive dictatorship.

And be executed and your revolution dies with you?

That's stupid. Kneel and when they release you, you keep fighting.