Christian Discussion Thread V

[The Alma Mater]

And also the patron saint of whores, drunkards and the country of Greece ?

Well, someone's gotta be

Fair enough.
Still, to add some seriousness - the claim that the Santa who arrives around Yule is Satan has some historical credibility. He is basically an amalgam of the pagan Father Christmas (who may or may not be based on Odin, sources are conflicted on this - but he definately was not christian) - and the Dutch/German/Austrian "Sinterklaas". Who eventually was portrayed as the famous Catholic saint accompanied by black servants/demons - but originally was portrayed as being a demon himself.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

There's many ways to interpret Satan...

In Job, for instance, he isn't seen as an adversary of God but an adversary against humanity; kind of like a prosecutor who is telling God that we're evil and we don't deserve any mercy.

I'm pretty sure God used Satan to test Job, thereby making him a righteous person. Just because God and Satan talked together doesn't mean they're friends.

You're forgetting the fact that Job was already what could have been considered the most righteous among people and God actually blessed him for it, if one is to go by the book's dialogue.

[Grave_n_idle]

I'm pretty sure God used Satan to test Job, thereby making him a righteous person. Just because God and Satan talked together doesn't mean they're friends.

You're forgetting the fact that Job was already what could have been considered the most righteous among people and God actually blessed him for it, if one is to go by the book's dialogue.

Indeed. Satan is explicitly the 'adversary' of man (And specifically Job) in that account, not of god.

[Gim]

I'm pretty sure God used Satan to test Job, thereby making him a righteous person. Just because God and Satan talked together doesn't mean they're friends.

You're forgetting the fact that Job was already what could have been considered the most righteous among people and God actually blessed him for it, if one is to go by the book's dialogue.

Well, contrary to your comment that Satan and God worked together, God sought to prove Satan that Job is indeed a faithful person, even if his possessions are taken away. Satan thinks Job is faithful to God, because he has materialistic wealth. God proved Satan wrong, when Job maintained his faith towards God, even if he suffered plagues, trials, and tribulations.

Satan told God the following:

Job 1:9-11
“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

God wanted to prove him wrong by testing the faith of Job.

[Salus Maior]

Fair enough.
Still, to add some seriousness - the claim that the Santa who arrives around Yule is Satan has some historical credibility. He is basically an amalgam of the pagan Father Christmas (who may or may not be based on Odin, sources are conflicted on this - but he definately was not christian) - and the Dutch/German/Austrian "Sinterklaas". Who eventually was portrayed as the famous Catholic saint accompanied by black servants/demons - but originally was portrayed as being a demon himself.

I'm aware of what Santa is. But as I believe Const said earlier, the Santa of northern Europe (and now I suppose popular culture) is basically just a pagan figure with elements borrowed from the actual Saint Nicholas, who was known for giving gifts (actually, I think the reason for St.Nicholas being a patron Saint of prostitutes has to do with him giving prostitutes gold in order for them to get out of the trade. But I may be mistaken, Const would probably know. Being all Orthodox-y and stuff.)

[Soldati Senza Confini]

You're forgetting the fact that Job was already what could have been considered the most righteous among people and God actually blessed him for it, if one is to go by the book's dialogue.

Well, contrary to your comment that Satan and God worked together, God sought to prove Satan that Job is indeed a faithful person, even if his possessions are taken away. Satan thinks Job is faithful to God, because he has materialistic wealth. God proved Satan wrong, when Job maintained his faith towards God, even if he suffered plagues, trials, and tribulations.

Satan told God the following:

Job 1:9-11
“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

God wanted to prove him wrong by testing the faith of Job.

I never said that Satan worked alongside God. I said that there are many ways to interpret Satan as, which goes uncontested so far.

Also, later on Satan ends up being right, somewhat, depending on your definition of "curse".

[Morr]

It's heresy, which means it is Christian, just wrong.

They're more "Christian" than the Trinitarians.

[Salus Maior]

You know, you're the second person today I've heard saying that.

You talk with a lot of Pharisees then?

Not really. "Brood of Vipers" and all that ;P I kid.

[Morr]

So, you're basically saying Satan is not against Jesus Christ? Okay. I don't know what your denomination is, but I...can't even find a word for this.

There's many ways to interpret Satan...

In Job, for instance, he isn't seen as an adversary of God but an adversary against humanity; kind of like a prosecutor who is telling God that we're evil and we don't deserve any mercy.

Satan is evil himself, and is an adversary to God in the sense that God wishes to save humanity, whereas Satan wants to damn humanity. God already knows we don't deserve mercy, but it's not about "deserving" it.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

There's many ways to interpret Satan...

In Job, for instance, he isn't seen as an adversary of God but an adversary against humanity; kind of like a prosecutor who is telling God that we're evil and we don't deserve any mercy.

Satan is evil himself, and is an adversary to God in the sense that God wishes to save humanity, whereas Satan wants to damn humanity. God already knows we don't deserve mercy, but it's not about "deserving" it.

I'm not entirely sold out on the "absolute evil" rap Satan garners.

For one, I don't think absolute evil is pleasing to God to the extent that God is willing to listen to absolute evil itself about one of his best and most beloved people on Earth, further, to give such absolute evil the power to strip everything from Job and to ail his health.

[The Alexanderians]

Satan is evil himself, and is an adversary to God in the sense that God wishes to save humanity, whereas Satan wants to damn humanity. God already knows we don't deserve mercy, but it's not about "deserving" it.

I'm not entirely sold out on the "absolute evil" rap Satan garners.

For one, I don't think absolute evil is pleasing to God to the extent that God is willing to listen to absolute evil itself about one of his best and most beloved people on Earth.

Honestly I feel a little bad for him.

[Gim]

I'm not entirely sold out on the "absolute evil" rap Satan garners.

For one, I don't think absolute evil is pleasing to God to the extent that God is willing to listen to absolute evil itself about one of his best and most beloved people on Earth.

Honestly I feel a little bad for him.

Morr or Soldati?

[The Alexanderians]

Honestly I feel a little bad for him.

Morr or Soldati?

No Satan.

[Gim]

Morr or Soldati?

No Satan.

You shouldn't be, really. It's the bane of your existence.

[Salus Maior]

I'm not entirely sold out on the "absolute evil" rap Satan garners.

For one, I don't think absolute evil is pleasing to God to the extent that God is willing to listen to absolute evil itself about one of his best and most beloved people on Earth.

Honestly I feel a little bad for him.

I suppose I can see how. Kind of like Voldemort.

[Morr]

Satan is evil himself, and is an adversary to God in the sense that God wishes to save humanity, whereas Satan wants to damn humanity. God already knows we don't deserve mercy, but it's not about "deserving" it.

I'm not entirely sold out on the "absolute evil" rap Satan garners.

For one, I don't think absolute evil is pleasing to God to the extent that God is willing to listen to absolute evil itself about one of his best and most beloved people on Earth, further, to give such absolute evil the power to strip everything from Job and to ail his health.

Then you need to read the NT and see some of the things it says about Satan.

The Book of Job is a fable, a story. It's not some factual account of how the mechanics of Heaven works. God and Satan are literary characters in it, and it's about preserving through hardship (and early Christains had it harder than anyone else BECAUSE they were Christians), while discussing temporal justice in relation to God in philosophical dialogue.

[Gim]

I'm not entirely sold out on the "absolute evil" rap Satan garners.

For one, I don't think absolute evil is pleasing to God to the extent that God is willing to listen to absolute evil itself about one of his best and most beloved people on Earth, further, to give such absolute evil the power to strip everything from Job and to ail his health.

Then you need to read the NT and see some of the things it says about Satan.

The Book of Job is a fable, a story. It's not some factual account of how the mechanics of Heaven works. God and Satan are literary characters in it, and it's about preserving through hardship (and early Christains had it harder than anyone else BECAUSE they were Christians), while discussing temporal justice in relation to God in philosophical dialogue.

Wait. Job isn't real?

[The Alexanderians]

No Satan.

You shouldn't be, really. It's the bane of your existence.

But that's the reason why. We should pray for sinners right? That they will hopefully choose the path of good again. No one ever hopes or prays for him to get better only that he gets his. Think about the many number of possible ways he ended up the way he did. Either evil by default unable to see good the way we are capable of. Or he was "the accuser" forced to try humans in their faith, that's his job. Imagine having to literally break people's faith as your day job, now imagine that you weren't twisted right off the bat, like some idealistic law school student snapped by one of his first cases. Or imagine if "the accuser" was simply driven to evil because of the nature of the job. You'd see the absolute worst in people in that job, plenty of decent people have become cynical and even murderous over the years from being exposed to too much. Imagine a decent person driven to megalomania and narcissism simply because they became fed up with the world and the people in it. And what's his fate? Utter affiliation at the hands of someone he used to have loyalty in. No matter how much of a jerkass he is I can't help but feel sorry for him.

[The Alexanderians]

Honestly I feel a little bad for him.

I suppose I can see how. Kind of like Voldemort.

Exactly, you want to hate him. It's easy to hate him but if you step back and look at his life you feel a little sad for him.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I'm not entirely sold out on the "absolute evil" rap Satan garners.

For one, I don't think absolute evil is pleasing to God to the extent that God is willing to listen to absolute evil itself about one of his best and most beloved people on Earth, further, to give such absolute evil the power to strip everything from Job and to ail his health.

Then you need to read the NT and see some of the things it says about Satan.

The Book of Job is a fable, a story. It's not some factual account of how the mechanics of Heaven works. God and Satan are literary characters in it, and it's about preserving through hardship (and early Christains had it harder than anyone else BECAUSE they were Christians), while discussing temporal justice in relation to God in philosophical dialogue.

I have read the NT and the things it says about Satan. Honestly though I do not recall anything about Satan being the absolute evil until Revelations, and Revelations is the kind of book that is mostly allegorical instead of literal. What it does say about Satan earlier on though is that he is the father of all lies, but this is not the same thing as being told in an Apocalyptic book that he is the epitome of evil.

Sure, Satan is called "the evil one", but "the evil one" is not the same as "evil incarnate".

[Gim]

I suppose I can see how. Kind of like Voldemort.

Exactly, you want to hate him. It's easy to hate him but if you step back and look at his life you feel a little sad for him.

In what sense? I'd be interested to hear.

[The Alexanderians]

Exactly, you want to hate him. It's easy to hate him but if you step back and look at his life you feel a little sad for him.

In what sense? I'd be interested to hear.

the post right before the one you quoted

[Gim]

In what sense? I'd be interested to hear.

the post right before the one you quoted

So, how does that make me sympathize Satan?

[The Alma Mater]

Fair enough.
Still, to add some seriousness - the claim that the Santa who arrives around Yule is Satan has some historical credibility. He is basically an amalgam of the pagan Father Christmas (who may or may not be based on Odin, sources are conflicted on this - but he definately was not christian) - and the Dutch/German/Austrian "Sinterklaas". Who eventually was portrayed as the famous Catholic saint accompanied by black servants/demons - but originally was portrayed as being a demon himself.

I'm aware of what Santa is. But as I believe Const said earlier, the Santa of northern Europe (and now I suppose popular culture) is basically just a pagan figure with elements borrowed from the actual Saint Nicholas, who was known for giving gifts (actually, I think the reason for St.Nicholas being a patron Saint of prostitutes has to do with him giving prostitutes gold in order for them to get out of the trade. But I may be mistaken, Const would probably know. Being all Orthodox-y and stuff.)

Not just a pagan figure - a demon. A demon who was mixed with a Catholic priest.
So people who have some trouble with the concept of Santa... well, they can be said to have a point.

[The Alexanderians]

the post right before the one you quoted

So, how does that make me sympathize Satan?

You don;t feel bad for the satan of any of those possibilities? I do, he can't understand good even if he did at one point. I literally feel bad for someone like that. Even if they are evil, am I not allowed to feel for them? To pray they come back to what they left? In a way he reminds me of Azula from Avatar, definitely evil but at the end of the day the monster simply is something to be pitied.