Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act

[Celsuis]

And now you're arguing for Jim Crow.

This is an outright falsehood. Jim Crow actually mandated discriminatory measures in public facilities and for public services. For private businesses, however, they should have the right to discriminate as one is not entitled to anything by anybody else.

[Fartsniffage]

And now you're arguing for Jim Crow.

No, I'm arguing for common sense and decency.

Define decency.

[Patridam]

That is the current legal situation in much of the US, yes. But I don't think it should be, and I think Indiana's law is a good step in that direction.

It really isn't. It's a silly law brought in by a Republican state government in an attempt to placate the bigots in the state. It'll do nothing to help with your ideas of how things should work.

There are applications of this law in both directions, you know.

While people have been bringing up the christian bakeries that will able to refuse to make cakes for gay weddings, there are the atheist bakeries who will be able to refuse catering Westboro church rallies. As long as it's not the government, private enterprises should be allowed to refuse service to anyone, and people should be allowed to boycott any agency either.

[Jamzmania]

No, I'm arguing for common sense and decency.

Define decency.

A simple Google search would have done you good.

de·cen·cy
ˈdēsənsē/Submit
noun
behavior that conforms to accepted standards of morality or respectability.
"she had the decency to come and confess"
synonyms: propriety, decorum, good taste, respectability, dignity, correctness, good form, etiquette; More
modesty and propriety.
"a loose dress, rather too low-cut for decency"
the requirements of accepted or respectable behavior.
plural noun: decencies
"an appeal to common decencies"

[Fartsniffage]

Define decency.

A simple Google search would have done you good.

de·cen·cy
ˈdēsənsē/Submit
noun
behavior that conforms to accepted standards of morality or respectability.
"she had the decency to come and confess"
synonyms: propriety, decorum, good taste, respectability, dignity, correctness, good form, etiquette; More
modesty and propriety.
"a loose dress, rather too low-cut for decency"
the requirements of accepted or respectable behavior.
plural noun: decencies
"an appeal to common decencies"

Ah, so you don't even know what you mean by it.

[Fartsniffage]

It really isn't. It's a silly law brought in by a Republican state government in an attempt to placate the bigots in the state. It'll do nothing to help with your ideas of how things should work.

There are applications of this law in both directions, you know.

While people have been bringing up the christian bakeries that will able to refuse to make cakes for gay weddings, there are the atheist bakeries who will be able to refuse catering Westboro church rallies. As long as it's not the government, private enterprises should be allowed to refuse service to anyone, and people should be allowed to boycott any agency either.

It doesn't mean that at all. Religious belief is a protected class at federal level.

[Patridam]

There are applications of this law in both directions, you know.

While people have been bringing up the christian bakeries that will able to refuse to make cakes for gay weddings, there are the atheist bakeries who will be able to refuse catering Westboro church rallies. As long as it's not the government, private enterprises should be allowed to refuse service to anyone, and people should be allowed to boycott any agency either.

It doesn't mean that at all. Religious belief is a protected class at federal level.

Colorado is evidence that federal laws don't mean jack when state laws directly dispute them.

[Fartsniffage]

It doesn't mean that at all. Religious belief is a protected class at federal level.

Colorado is evidence that federal laws don't mean jack when state laws directly dispute them.

Only if the federal government decides not to enforce them. You really think it would allow discrimination against Christians?

[Patridam]

Only if the federal government decides not to enforce them. You really think it would allow discrimination against Christians?

I would imagine that they'd step on in in cases "discriminating" against homosexuals or atheists or Hispanics or whatever other minorities before they'd step in on something operating against the majority. As far as much of the US is concerned, it is impossible to be racist against white people, sexist against men, or otherwise discriminatory against the majority.

That's just a guess of course, as I really doubt they'd take action at all; probably just condemn the law from afar as Obama has been doing, without actually taking action.

[The Black Forrest]

How about this?
Jim is Jewish, and owns a Bakery. Ned is a member of the American Nazi Party, planning a fundraiser party. Ned visits Jim's bakery and orders a giant swastika shaped cake for said fundraiser. So Jim should have to make such a cake, no matter any personal objections? And if he doesn't, what, the government comes in a shuts his bakery down?

Also, as to your final note, I just want to know how the modern US policy of 'corporate person-hood' applies to this scenario, if a business cannot act the same as a private individual can.

*rolling my eyes*

bakeries don't have to make cakes that they don't make. if a Nazi wants a cake they should be able to buy whatever kind of cake this bakery makes.

I'm trying to figure out the link between homosexuality an the Nazis.

[Fartsniffage]

Only if the federal government decides not to enforce them. You really think it would allow discrimination against Christians?

I would imagine that they'd step on in in cases "discriminating" against homosexuals or atheists or Hispanics or whatever other minorities before they'd step in on something operating against the majority. As far as much of the US is concerned, it is impossible to be racist against white people, sexist against men, or otherwise discriminatory against the majority.

That's just a guess of course, as I really doubt they'd take action at all; probably just condemn the law from afar as Obama has been doing, without actually taking action.

Gays aren't a protected class at federal level. The federal government can't do shit until that changes.

If this law does indeed protect atheists as you claim, then why would Obama be condemning it? Surely he'd be applauding it since it helps them out?

The reality is that you have no clue how any of this actually works. I'm not even American and I get it all far better than you do.

[The Black Forrest]

Colorado is evidence that federal laws don't mean jack when state laws directly dispute them.

Only if the federal government decides not to enforce them. You really think it would allow discrimination against Christians?

Of course not. That would be oppressive and wrong to allow that to go on.

[Genivaria]

*rolling my eyes*

bakeries don't have to make cakes that they don't make. if a Nazi wants a cake they should be able to buy whatever kind of cake this bakery makes.

I'm trying to figure out the link between homosexuality an the Nazis.

Those uniforms were just FABULOUS!

[Greed and Death]

It really isn't. It's a silly law brought in by a Republican state government in an attempt to placate the bigots in the state. It'll do nothing to help with your ideas of how things should work.

There are applications of this law in both directions, you know.

While people have been bringing up the christian bakeries that will able to refuse to make cakes for gay weddings, there are the atheist bakeries who will be able to refuse catering Westboro church rallies. As long as it's not the government, private enterprises should be allowed to refuse service to anyone, and people should be allowed to boycott any agency either.

The law never would have allowed an override to public accommodation statutes.

[The Black Forrest]

There are applications of this law in both directions, you know.

While people have been bringing up the christian bakeries that will able to refuse to make cakes for gay weddings, there are the atheist bakeries who will be able to refuse catering Westboro church rallies. As long as it's not the government, private enterprises should be allowed to refuse service to anyone, and people should be allowed to boycott any agency either.

The law never would have allowed an override to public accommodation statutes.

Indeed. What is interesting is people are overlooking where you can be fired for being gay.....

[Patridam]

I'm trying to figure out the link between homosexuality an the Nazis.

I was pointing out the unfairness of forcing someone to participate/contribute to a cause counter to their own beliefs. A Jew being legally bound to support a Nazi event seemed a decent enough comparison to a fundamentalist christian being legally bound to support a gay marriage event.

Indeed. What is interesting is people are overlooking where you can be fired for being gay.....

Are you referring to the boy scouts? The Supreme Court ruled that, as a private organization, it can set standards to which it expects its members/employees should meet. Looking at it that way, all this Indiana law does is extend said ruling to allowing an organization to set standards of its customers.

[Fartsniffage]

I was pointing out the unfairness of forcing someone to participate/contribute to a cause counter to their own beliefs. A Jew being legally bound to support a Nazi event seemed a decent enough comparison to a fundamentalist christian being legally bound to support a gay marriage event.

So you have evidence of homosexuals committing genocide against fundamentalist Christians? If you don't then your comparison is utter bullshit and you should be ashamed for making it.

[The Black Forrest]

I'm trying to figure out the link between homosexuality an the Nazis.

I was pointing out the unfairness of forcing someone to participate/contribute to a cause counter to their own beliefs. A Jew being legally bound to support a Nazi event seemed a decent enough comparison to a fundamentalist christian being legally bound to support a gay marriage event.

Running a public business doesn't exclude you from being uncomfortable.

The problem with your "analogy" why would a Neo-Nazi want to go to a Jewish business.

The cake argument is silly.

Indeed. What is interesting is people are overlooking where you can be fired for being gay.....

Are you referring to the boy scouts? The Supreme Court ruled that, as a private organization, it can set standards to which it expects its members/employees should meet. Looking at it that way, all this Indiana law does is extend said ruling to allowing an organization to set standards of its customers.

Nope. As it's been said (I should say I haven't verified) it's legal to fire someone for being gay.

Seen it mentioned in a couple places.

[Gauthier]

I was pointing out the unfairness of forcing someone to participate/contribute to a cause counter to their own beliefs. A Jew being legally bound to support a Nazi event seemed a decent enough comparison to a fundamentalist christian being legally bound to support a gay marriage event.

So you have evidence of homosexuals committing genocide against fundamentalist Christians? If you don't then your comparison is utter bullshit and you should be ashamed for making it.

Well obviously every time they have gay anal sex all those sperm die without fertilizing an egg. Clearly that's genocide! *nod*

[Patridam]

The problem with your "analogy" why would a Neo-Nazi want to go to a Jewish business.

Well, if going meant being refused service, and being refused service means they can call up the government and get the jew put out of business, a Neo-Nazi would love to go to a Jewish business since doing so would bankrupt a mortal enemy.

But back onto it, why would a gay couple go to a business owned by fundamentalist Christians who think their union is a sin?

So you have evidence of homosexuals committing genocide against fundamentalist Christians? If you don't then your comparison is utter bullshit and you should be ashamed for making it.

Why would I need that evidence? Your demand is utter bullshit.

[Ashmoria]

*rolling my eyes*

bakeries don't have to make cakes that they don't make. if a Nazi wants a cake they should be able to buy whatever kind of cake this bakery makes.

The question is should he be forced to cater the Nazi fundraising event? It's not a situation where a guy walks in, pays for a cake on sale, then leaves, and that guy just happens to be a Nazi. This Nazi would be asking this Jew to specifically provide specially-made cakes for this specific event (a Nazi fundraising event), and deliver them personally to this event, as well.

no that wasn't the question.

[Fartsniffage]

Why would I need that evidence? Your demand is utter bullshit.

You're comparing two people in love to an ideology that tried to exterminate several groups of people. Funnily enough, the gays among them.

It's a false equivalence, unless you can show otherwise.

[Ashmoria]

*rolling my eyes*

bakeries don't have to make cakes that they don't make. if a Nazi wants a cake they should be able to buy whatever kind of cake this bakery makes.

Jim has a "Design-your-own-cake" program where he makes whatever shaped cake you want. So far it's only been used by a mom who wanted a cake shaped like a 17 for her daughters' quinceañera, but now its a swastika.

Or, forget the shape of the cake. Should Jim have to make a cake if he know's it's going to be used to feed everyone at a Nazi party fundraiser? When a nazi gets elected to the town council, he'll tell Jim how "I couldn't have gotten my position without your wonderful cake, mein untermensch." And you say the government should force him to make that cake or be put out of business?

I guess jim should have thought it through. although Colorado did recently rule that you don't have to make hateful cakes. that might pertain. otherwise as long as these virulent Nazis can behave themselves politely I guess that poor jim is going to have to abide by his "we'll make anything you want" policy and just be happy that it wasn't a cake of a woman peeing while holding a Nazi flag.

[Gauthier]

Jim has a "Design-your-own-cake" program where he makes whatever shaped cake you want. So far it's only been used by a mom who wanted a cake shaped like a 17 for her daughters' quinceañera, but now its a swastika.

Or, forget the shape of the cake. Should Jim have to make a cake if he know's it's going to be used to feed everyone at a Nazi party fundraiser? When a nazi gets elected to the town council, he'll tell Jim how "I couldn't have gotten my position without your wonderful cake, mein untermensch." And you say the government should force him to make that cake or be put out of business?

I guess jim should have thought it through. although Colorado did recently rule that you don't have to make hateful cakes. that might pertain. otherwise as long as these virulent Nazis can behave themselves politely I guess that poor jim is going to have to abide by his "we'll make anything you want" policy and just be happy that it wasn't a cake of a woman peeing while holding a Nazi flag.

It'll be a swastika cake made entirely of bacon. With a tiny replica of Auschwitz on top.

[Ashmoria]

I'm trying to figure out the link between homosexuality an the Nazis.

I was pointing out the unfairness of forcing someone to participate/contribute to a cause counter to their own beliefs. A Jew being legally bound to support a Nazi event seemed a decent enough comparison to a fundamentalist christian being legally bound to support a gay marriage event.

ya but "jim" wouldn't be supporting the event. he would be making a nice profit off people too stupid to realize that they are supporting a jewish baker.