The Pledge of Allegiance; Your Thoughts

[The New Sea Territory]

It seems that these days if you take any sort of pride in being American then you're hounded by the political left for being a brainwashed backwoods Fox News-watching hillbilly who spends his days bitching about those damn commies before going home to your double-wide trailer to fuck your sister.

Right, because no one shouldn't be proud. Plain and simple, no one is special because they live here. Patriotism and nationalism are just justifications for imperialism, genocide and oppression around the world.

[Kravanica]

Yes, kids should say. It teaches them to take pride in this country and the morals it was founded upon.

1. How does mindless repetition teach them any such thing?

It seems that these days if you take any sort of pride in being American then you're hounded by the political left for being a brainwashed backwoods Fox News-watching hillbilly who spends his days bitching about those damn commies before going home to your double-wide trailer to fuck your sister.

2. How did you nail yourself to that cross? Did someone help you, or did you rig up some kind of Rube Goldberg machine?

1. It isnstills good values. And it's, what, 5 seconds out of their day? Gawd, such mindless brainwashing.

2. It was of my own doing, I assure you.

[Kravanica]

It seems that these days if you take any sort of pride in being American then you're hounded by the political left for being a brainwashed backwoods Fox News-watching hillbilly who spends his days bitching about those damn commies before going home to your double-wide trailer to fuck your sister.

Right, because no one shouldn't be proud. Plain and simple, no one is special because they live here. Patriotism and nationalism are just justifications for imperialism, genocide and oppression around the world.

It's not about being special, it's about taking pride in your country and its accomplishments. If you truly think most patriots advocate for oppression and imperialism, then you're wrong and should feel bad.

Also, just so you know I detest nationalism. Nationalism is one of the most pervasive and virulent diseases that has ever graced this world. Especially in a country as diverse as America. I advocate for patriotism, not nationalism. The two are not one in the same.

[Ifreann]

1. How does mindless repetition teach them any such thing?


2. How did you nail yourself to that cross? Did someone help you, or did you rig up some kind of Rube Goldberg machine?

1. It isnstills good values.

I don't see how it instils anything. Making people say "Liberty and justice" every day of their school career won't lead to them understanding what liberty and justice are.

And it's, what, 5 seconds out of their day? Gawd, such mindless brainwashing.

Yes, mindless brainwashing. That it doesn't take long doesn't change that.

2. It was of my own doing, I assure you.

Fascinating.

[Kravanica]

1. It isnstills good values.

1. I don't see how it instils anything. Making people say "Liberty and justice" every day of their school career won't lead to them understanding what liberty and justice are.

And it's, what, 5 seconds out of their day? Gawd, such mindless brainwashing.

2. Yes, mindless brainwashing. That it doesn't take long doesn't change that.

2. It was of my own doing, I assure you.

Fascinating.

1. It instills a sense of pride in ones country, which is exactly what the next generation needs. Your inability to grasp such a simple concept is no fault of mine.

2. Some pretty shitty brainwashing, if you ask me. If they really wanted to brainwash them they would force to watch hours of Team America on loop.

[The New Sea Territory]

It's not about being special,

No, that is exactly what it is. My country is special, and I was conveniently born here.

it's about taking pride in your country and its accomplishments.

This isn't your country or my country. Countries are arbitrary lines that are the boundaries of a particular state, nothing more.

If you truly think most patriots advocate for oppression and imperialism, then you're wrong and should feel bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_au ... ted_States

Patriots and nationalists tend to be conservatives, conservatives tend to be interventionist, and interventionism caused all of the above.

Also, just so you know I detest nationalism. Nationalism is one of the most pervasive and virulent diseases that has ever graced this world. Especially in a country as diverse as America. I advocate for patriotism, not nationalism. The two are not one in the same.

Right, but they come from the same premises. "This country is great because X. Other countries don't have X." Quickly, that turns into "we are better than other countries because they don't have X", then, finally to "we need to bring X to other countries in the world". Look at the Roman Empire, the British Empire or, now, the American Empire.

[The New Sea Territory]

1. It instills a sense of pride in ones country, which is exactly what the next generation needs. Your inability to grasp such a simple concept is no fault of mine.

The last thing the next generation needs is a bunch of god-fearing ignorant bigots who feel that they need to populate the homeland to save us from Mexicans and Muslims taking over. Patriotism is meaningless at best, and dangerous at worst.

[Ifreann]

1. I don't see how it instils anything. Making people say "Liberty and justice" every day of their school career won't lead to them understanding what liberty and justice are.

2. Yes, mindless brainwashing. That it doesn't take long doesn't change that.


Fascinating.

1. It instills a sense of pride in ones country, which is exactly what the next generation needs. Your inability to grasp such a simple concept is no fault of mine.

2. Some pretty shitty brainwashing, if you ask me. If they really wanted to brainwash them they would force to watch hours of Team America on loop.

So you are saying both that repeating the Pledge WILL impose the "proper" opinions about America on children(instil pride) and WILL NOT impose the "proper" opinions about America on children(brainwashing).

[Kravanica]

It's not about being special,

1. No, that is exactly what it is. My country is special, and I was conveniently born here.

it's about taking pride in your country and its accomplishments.

2. This isn't your country or my country. Countries are arbitrary lines that are the boundaries of a particular state, nothing more.

If you truly think most patriots advocate for oppression and imperialism, then you're wrong and should feel bad.

3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_au ... ted_States

Patriots and nationalists tend to be conservatives, conservatives tend to be interventionist, and interventionism caused all of the above.

Also, just so you know I detest nationalism. Nationalism is one of the most pervasive and virulent diseases that has ever graced this world. Especially in a country as diverse as America. I advocate for patriotism, not nationalism. The two are not one in the same.

4. Right, but they come from the same premises. "This country is great because X. Other countries don't have X." Quickly, that turns into "we are better than other countries because they don't have X", then, finally to "we need to bring X to other countries in the world". Look at the Roman Empire, the British Empire or, now, the American Empire.

1. Err, no. It's "I love my country, and I want the best for my country."

Your ignorance toward this simple fact does not make it less true.

2. Countries are groups of people who have come together for a specific purpose. They are sovereign states with their own governments and people who identify themselves as hailing from there.

Though it's adorable that you try to reduce them to lines on a map.

3. Interventionism =/= colonialism

Learn2English

4. Oh NSG, you never cease to make me laugh. All patriotism is "This county is great because we have accomplished X. We want to keep this country great and defend it from enemies." Also, the American Empire?

Brilliant.

[Kravanica]

1. It instills a sense of pride in ones country, which is exactly what the next generation needs. Your inability to grasp such a simple concept is no fault of mine.

The last thing the next generation needs is a bunch of god-fearing ignorant bigots who feel that they need to populate the homeland to save us from Mexicans and Muslims taking over. Patriotism is meaningless at best, and dangerous at worst.

Oh yes, because being patriotic automatically means you're a racist bigot.

Fuck off, man. The only bigot here is you.

[Haktiva]

It mostly pisses me off that nobody really knows the meaning behind the words and it's just something kids have to say so they don't get in trouble. The fact that you have to force patriotism says a lot about a country.

[Kravanica]

1. It instills a sense of pride in ones country, which is exactly what the next generation needs. Your inability to grasp such a simple concept is no fault of mine.

2. Some pretty shitty brainwashing, if you ask me. If they really wanted to brainwash them they would force to watch hours of Team America on loop.

So you are saying both that repeating the Pledge WILL impose the "proper" opinions about America on children(instil pride) and WILL NOT impose the "proper" opinions about America on children(brainwashing).

It has nothing to do with proper opinions. If you think a 5 second pledge every day is enough to brainwash peoole, you're out of your mind. People will naturally develop their own opinions as they get older. All a pledge does is remind them of their home and their culture and the values of this country.

[Desperate Measures]

So you are saying both that repeating the Pledge WILL impose the "proper" opinions about America on children(instil pride) and WILL NOT impose the "proper" opinions about America on children(brainwashing).

It has nothing to do with proper opinions. If you think a 5 second pledge every day is enough to brainwash peoole, you're out of your mind. People will naturally develop their own opinions as they got older. All a pledge does is remind them of their home and their culture and the values of this country.

Wonder why there isn't more in the pledge about consumerism, then.

[Kravanica]

It has nothing to do with proper opinions. If you think a 5 second pledge every day is enough to brainwash peoole, you're out of your mind. People will naturally develop their own opinions as they got older. All a pledge does is remind them of their home and their culture and the values of this country.

Wonder why there isn't more in the pledge about consumerism, then.

Because it has no reason to be in there?

[Securitan]

Wonder why there isn't more in the pledge about consumerism, then.

Because it has no reason to be in there?

Yeah it does, it represents our country.

[Kravanica]

Because it has no reason to be in there?

Yeah it does, it represents our country.

It represents the Western world, sure.

Consumerism isn't a uniquely American thing, contrary to popular opinion.

[Neutraligon]

Yeah it does, it represents our country.

It represents the Western world, sure.

Consumerism isn't a uniquely American thing, contrary to popular opinion.

Neither is Liberty and Justice for all.

[Securitan]

Yeah it does, it represents our country.

It represents the Western world, sure.

Consumerism isn't a uniquely American thing, contrary to popular opinion.

No it isn't unique to America. That doesn't mean it doesn't represent us. English isn't unique to America either. God isn't unique to America - it is still mentioned in the Pledge.

[Kravanica]

It represents the Western world, sure.

Consumerism isn't a uniquely American thing, contrary to popular opinion.

Neither is Liberty and Justice for all.

Sure. Democracy was started by the Greeks, yadda yadda.

Liberty and Justice for all were one of the founding principles of the US.

Consumerism, shockingly, was not.

[Central Kadigan]

The original version of the Pledge made no mention of God (despite having been written by a Baptist minister) and it actually ended “with liberty, justice, and equality for all”.

Now, when Congress adopted it in 1954, they added the blatantly unconstitutional reference to God, and they dropped the word “equality” from the end, just in case the Negros in the South might accidently believe that it applied to them as well.

As far as a statement of nationalism goes, if you must have one I very much prefer the “American's Creed” which had been adopted by Congress decades earlier in 1918:

“I believe in the United States of America, as a government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a republic; a sovereign Nation of many sovereign States; a perfect union, one and inseparable; established upon these principles of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes. I therefore believe it is my duty to love my country, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws, to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies.”

[Scomagia]

Right, because no one shouldn't be proud. Plain and simple, no one is special because they live here. Patriotism and nationalism are just justifications for imperialism, genocide and oppression around the world.

It's not about being special, it's about taking pride in your country and its accomplishments. If you truly think most patriots advocate for oppression and imperialism, then you're wrong and should feel bad.

Also, just so you know I detest nationalism. Nationalism is one of the most pervasive and virulent diseases that has ever graced this world. Especially in a country as diverse as America. I advocate for patriotism, not nationalism. The two are not one in the same.

There's no reason to be proud of your country. It's about as senseless as being proud of your skin color. It's pointless, tribal bullshit.

[Ifreann]

It mostly pisses me off that nobody really knows the meaning behind the words and it's just something kids have to say so they don't get in trouble. The fact that you have to force patriotism says a lot about a country.

It's quite illegal for children to get in trouble for not saying the Pledge. Not that it doesn't happen, just that it's illegal.

---

So you are saying both that repeating the Pledge WILL impose the "proper" opinions about America on children(instil pride) and WILL NOT impose the "proper" opinions about America on children(brainwashing).

It has nothing to do with proper opinions. If you think a 5 second pledge every day is enough to brainwash peoole, you're out of your mind.

You yourself said the aim was to instil pride. Did you mean something else by that?

People will naturally develop their own opinions as they get older. All a pledge does is remind them of their home and their culture and the values of this country.

Do many schoolchildren in America forget what country they're from?

Plus "under God" isn't really a value of your country.

---

It represents the Western world, sure.

Consumerism isn't a uniquely American thing, contrary to popular opinion.

Neither is Liberty and Justice for all.

Nor the idea of flags standing for nations, nor the idea of those nations being indivisible.

[Kravanica]

It's not about being special, it's about taking pride in your country and its accomplishments. If you truly think most patriots advocate for oppression and imperialism, then you're wrong and should feel bad.

Also, just so you know I detest nationalism. Nationalism is one of the most pervasive and virulent diseases that has ever graced this world. Especially in a country as diverse as America. I advocate for patriotism, not nationalism. The two are not one in the same.

There's no reason to be proud of your country. It's about as senseless as being proud of your skin color. It's pointless, tribal bullshit.

Do care to explain what is so terrible about being proud of your country and its accomplishments?

[Kravanica]

It mostly pisses me off that nobody really knows the meaning behind the words and it's just something kids have to say so they don't get in trouble. The fact that you have to force patriotism says a lot about a country.

It's quite illegal for children to get in trouble for not saying the Pledge. Not that it doesn't happen, just that it's illegal.

---

It has nothing to do with proper opinions. If you think a 5 second pledge every day is enough to brainwash peoole, you're out of your mind.

1. You yourself said the aim was to instil pride. Did you mean something else by that?

People will naturally develop their own opinions as they get older. All a pledge does is remind them of their home and their culture and the values of this country.

2. Do many schoolchildren in America forget what country they're from?

Plus "under God" isn't really a value of your country.

---

Neither is Liberty and Justice for all.

Nor the idea of flags standing for nations, nor the idea of those nations being indivisible.

1. That's essentially what I meant by "instill pride." To remind them of the values and culture of this country.

2. I agree. That's why I voted 'remove Under God'.

[Scomagia]

There's no reason to be proud of your country. It's about as senseless as being proud of your skin color. It's pointless, tribal bullshit.

Do care to explain what is so terrible about being proud of your country and its accomplishments?

It's senseless to be proud of something that you had no part in. "I'm proud that I was born someplace!"