Abortion: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It's uter-us, not uter-you.

Well said.

[Ashmoria]

are you suggesting that only MEN have true bodily integrity?

I am just saying that if your actions cause your body to be shared with someone else, you have to accept that you shouldn't do something with your body that kills them.

easy for you to say.

[Bottle]

From the moment of conception, towards the end of life, they are humans. The fetus, and babies are the most innocent members of society. It puts me in tears that some ass would kill the poor citizens. However, in special cases, such as rape THAT CANT BE PREVENTED, and maternal health, is when the human can be murded.

So how much time should the woman do for the "murders" that don't fit with your exemptions?

Let's use a common example: A woman gets an abortion because she can't afford another baby. What's her sentence? 20 years? Life? Could she perhaps become eligible for parole after menopause?

[Old Hope]

Ask yourself: Why is there any unborn inside the mother, needing her body?
Because the mother had chosen to perform an act potentially resulting in exactly that. She is responsible for the child.
And bodily integrity is not really a strong argument- because it has ceased to be exclusively the womans body.

Ask yourself:why is here a penis inside of the woman?
Because the woman had chosen to consent to to an act leading to exactly that. She is responsible for pleasing the man to the end. What a fantastic argument for rape you have there.

The man can go away. The unborn can't. The man doesn't have to do that(and shouldn't, ofc). The unborn cannot do anything else. The man is also responsible for not harming the woman. The unborn... well, it isn't able to do anything else.

[Hebalobia]

There are times when an abortion is a health issue. Who gets to decide when that's the case? Certainly not politicians or priests. I see no other rational option other than allowing abortion access on demand.

As for abortions that are not the result of health issues but financial or other issues, we should strive to limit their occurrence not by restricting access to abortion but by preventing unwanted pregnancies through comprehensive sex education and access to contraception including the so-called morning after pill.

[Mavorpen]

Ask yourself:why is here a penis inside of the woman?
Because the woman had chosen to consent to to an act leading to exactly that. She is responsible for pleasing the man to the end. What a fantastic argument for rape you have there.

The man can go away. The unborn can't.

He apparently doesn't have to.

The man doesn't have to do that(and shouldn't, ofc). The unborn cannot do anything else.

The man doesn't have to stop raping her?

The man is also responsible for not harming the woman. The unborn... well, it isn't able to do anything else.

She consented. He has no responsibility to do anything. According to you if you consent to sex you consent to any consequences, including pregnancy and being beaten by the man. Why the magical exception for the latter?

[Old Hope]

So women have to put up with shared bodily integrity, whether they agree to it or not, but men don't?

After birth, you mean? Men have to, if they share the body with someone else... but that is just rare, that is all....

[Ashmoria]

So women have to put up with shared bodily integrity, whether they agree to it or not, but men don't?

After birth, you mean? Men have to, if they share the body with someone else... but that is just rare, that is all....

what did YOU mean?

men never share their body with someone else.

and its not really SHARING its one person making another person from scratch.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

After birth, you mean? Men have to, if they share the body with someone else... but that is just rare, that is all....

what did YOU mean?

men never share their body with someone else.

and its not really SHARING its one person making another person from scratch.

Besides, other than sperm, what else does a man brings to a pregnancy? His body isn't the one doing the job of feeding and incubating a fetus. His body isn't the one deforming for 9 months. His life is not the one that could be in peril if the pregnancy and labor become complicated.

[Betoni]

The pro-lifers tend to argue that life begins prenatal. Does parenthood begin prenatal also? How does this work with the father? Heck, how does it work with regards to the mother? There is no direct input that the father can have in that stage, how can they be considered a father then? The mother has a physical connection to the fetus or embryo through the placenta and the umbilical cord, of course, but no other real way of parenting this "life", before it is born. Who is responsible of parenting this prenatal "child" and why?

[Old Hope]

The man can go away. The unborn can't.

He apparently doesn't have to.

The man doesn't have to do that(and shouldn't, ofc). The unborn cannot do anything else.

The man doesn't have to stop raping her?

The man is also responsible for not harming the woman. The unborn... well, it isn't able to do anything else.

She consented. He has no responsibility to do anything. According to you if you consent to sex you consent to any consequences, including pregnancy and being beaten by the man. Why the magical exception for the latter?

No. You don't consent! You just have to take the responsibility if you cause something unavoidable by others.
The woman can tell the man "Please stop" and the man can do it, and live on. The man can avoid that...
The woman can say to the unborn" Please go away"... but the unborn isn't able to go away.

[Old Hope]

what did YOU mean?

men never share their body with someone else.

and its not really SHARING its one person making another person from scratch.

Besides, other than sperm, what else does a man brings to a pregnancy? His body isn't the one doing the job of feeding and incubating a fetus. His body isn't the one deforming for 9 months. His life is not the one that could be in peril if the pregnancy and labor become complicated.

You never heard of conjoined twins, did you, Ashmoria?
And Nanatsu- that is a strawman.

[Mavorpen]

He apparently doesn't have to.

The man doesn't have to stop raping her?

She consented. He has no responsibility to do anything. According to you if you consent to sex you consent to any consequences, including pregnancy and being beaten by the man. Why the magical exception for the latter?

No. You don't consent! You just have to take the responsibility if you cause something unavoidable by others.
The woman can tell the man "Please stop" and the man can do it, and live on. The man can avoid that...
The woman can say to the unborn" Please go away"... but the unborn isn't able to go away.

And she takes responsibility and makes the fetus go away by getting an abortion, just as I would do the same for a parasitic worm residing in my intestines.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Besides, other than sperm, what else does a man brings to a pregnancy? His body isn't the one doing the job of feeding and incubating a fetus. His body isn't the one deforming for 9 months. His life is not the one that could be in peril if the pregnancy and labor become complicated.

You never heard of conjoined twins, did you, Ashmoria?
And Nanatsu- that is a strawman.

Nope. It's very much in point.

[Bottle]

Besides, other than sperm, what else does a man brings to a pregnancy? His body isn't the one doing the job of feeding and incubating a fetus. His body isn't the one deforming for 9 months. His life is not the one that could be in peril if the pregnancy and labor become complicated.

You never heard of conjoined twins, did you, Ashmoria?
And Nanatsu- that is a strawman.

FYI, a strawman argument is a sham argument that is set up purely to be defeated. Nothing in the post you quoted constitutes a strawman.

[Old Hope]

You never heard of conjoined twins, did you, Ashmoria?
And Nanatsu- that is a strawman.

FYI, a strawman argument is a sham argument that is set up purely to be defeated. Nothing in the post you quoted constitutes a strawman.

No, a strawman argument is an argument against something else, but not against that what it is directed at.
Like, what does have the fact that men have far less to suffer to do with the matter of shared bodies?

[Old Hope]

No. You don't consent! You just have to take the responsibility if you cause something unavoidable by others.
The woman can tell the man "Please stop" and the man can do it, and live on. The man can avoid that...
The woman can say to the unborn" Please go away"... but the unborn isn't able to go away.

And she takes responsibility and makes the fetus go away by getting an abortion, just as I would do the same for a parasitic worm residing in my intestines.

But that means that the unborn is killed. And that would be entirely the mothers' responsibility. And because there is another possibility to end this with both living...
And that worm is a not a human. The fetus is.

[Ifreann]

are you suggesting that only MEN have true bodily integrity?

I am just saying that if your actions cause your body to be shared with someone else, you have to accept that you shouldn't do something with your body that kills them.

No, I don't think women should have to accept that at all.

---

No, I'm pointing out a situation in which one can end a pregnancy without killing the foetus.

---

It's uter-us, not uter-you.

I set myself up for that one, didn't I?

And I stole it from the Simpsons

[Mavorpen]

And she takes responsibility and makes the fetus go away by getting an abortion, just as I would do the same for a parasitic worm residing in my intestines.

But that means that the unborn is killed. And that would be entirely the mothers' responsibility.

Which is why she has an abortion, because it's taking responsibility.

And because there is another possibility to end this with both living...

Just like if a woman is being raped she can just allow the man to rape her rather than use lethal force, right?

And that worm is a not a human. The fetus is.

Fetuses aren't humans. They have human cells, but they aren't individual humans until around 30 weeks at the earliest.

[Old Hope]

And because there is another possibility to end this with both living...

Just like if a woman is being raped she can just allow the man to rape her rather than use lethal force, right?

The man had the ability not to do that in the first place. He chose to get into that situation.
It is the combination:To cause the fetus to exist in the body, dependant, without being able to go elsewhere living for a period of time, without choosing that situation, and to kill it for your own personal gain,

[Mavorpen]

Just like if a woman is being raped she can just allow the man to rape her rather than use lethal force, right?

The man had the ability not to do that in the first place. He chose to get into that situation.
It is the combination:To cause the fetus to exist in the body, dependant, without being able to go elsewhere living for a period of time, without choosing that situation, and to kill it for your own personal gain,

Just like I would do the same for a parasitic worm. Women aren't property and they have every right to make personal medical decisions. It's between their doctor and them. No one else.

[Novsvacro]

I think if it's before the third trimester, it's rape, or it's incest, abortion is acceptable.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

I think if it's before the third trimester, it's rape, or it's incest, abortion is acceptable.

I assume also if the mother's life is in significant danger, or if the baby is unlikely to survive long after birth?

[Old Hope]

The man had the ability not to do that in the first place. He chose to get into that situation.
It is the combination:To cause the fetus to exist in the body, dependant, without being able to go elsewhere living for a period of time, without choosing that situation, and to kill it for your own personal gain,

Just like I would do the same for a parasitic worm. Women aren't property and they have every right to make personal medical decisions. It's between their doctor and them. No one else.

Women aren't property.
The fetus isn't, either.

[The Five Galaxies]

I think if it's before the third trimester, it's rape, or it's incest, abortion is acceptable.

Why are only those two acceptable to you?