Estonian Parliamentary Election, 2015

[Geilinor]

Estonia is wannabe Scandinavia. Their goal is to be like a Nordic country in the long run, or so I've read.

Eh, that's a bit of a simplification. Estonia see's themselves as closer to the Nordics in a cultural sense, but they're not exactly emulating Nordic Social Democracy in a political sense, and I don't think they want to.

Not yet, at least. We'll see.

[Jackonia]

The Euro is a single currency forced onto Nations that had very different economies. This caused a false boom and massive bust in Mediterrainian countries like Greece and Italy because they couldn't and can't handle the Euro. The North is alright because it is suited to the way their Economy worked, unlike the South.

I'm sure the Euro would have been fine restricted to the North, but introducing it to the Mediterrainian was a very bad move indeed.

[Geilinor]

The Euro is a single currency forced onto Nations that had very different economies. This caused a false boom and massive bust in Mediterrainian countries like Greece and Italy because they couldn't and can't handle the Euro. The North is alright because it is suited to the way their Economy works, unlike the South.

I'm sure the Euronwould have been fine restricted to the North, but introducing it to the Mediterrainian was a very bad move indeed.

The euro was not forced onto any nation.

[Dejanic]

Eh, that's a bit of a simplification. Estonia see's themselves as closer to the Nordics in a cultural sense, but they're not exactly emulating Nordic Social Democracy in a political sense, and I don't think they want to.

Not yet, at least. We'll see.

No we won't. Because the political establishment hasn't shown any interest in advocating a more left leaning path.

You sure you're not getting confused with Lithuania here? Lithuania has a Social Democratic government which is pushing for the implementation of a progressive taxation, and in general wants to move the nation away from gilded age style Baltic Capitalism and towards a mixed economy. Estonia on the other hand is very content with it's economic system, and will probably move further to the right in the coming years.

[Jackonia]

The Euro is a single currency forced onto Nations that had very different economies. This caused a false boom and massive bust in Mediterrainian countries like Greece and Italy because they couldn't and can't handle the Euro. The North is alright because it is suited to the way their Economy works, unlike the South.

I'm sure the Euronwould have been fine restricted to the North, but introducing it to the Mediterrainian was a very bad move indeed.

The euro was not forced onto any nation.

Alright, it wasn't quite forced, but there were biased referendum which gave false hopes and misinformed them about the Euro.

[The Liberated Territories]

Conservative Liberalism was basically watered down, moderated classical liberalism. Classical liberalism IS what the Libertarian Party endorses (although it does have a semi-anarchist undercurrent.) The Reform Party seems to be to the right of VVD definitely, but whether to call them classical liberals, I'd have to have an understanding of their long term goals.

A better term would probably be "neoliberal," since they seem to heavily incorporate a lot of neoliberal beliefs and they don't seem to be sticklers on ending the Russian created welfare state but trying to make it more efficient.

I agree with your first statement (Conservative Liberalism is a watered down moderate version of classical liberalism, which accepts certain provisions like national healthcare, basic regulations, etc), I'd slightly disagree with your second statement concerning Libertarianism though, as I see Libertarianism as a form of Classical Liberalism (but not identical) specifically applied to the USA, so there's some differences between Classical Liberalism of the European variety, and USA Libertarianism.

US Libertarianism is a philosophical branch, more or less. It is based on the concept of self ownership, and looks at some rights differently whereas "European" classical liberalism is non-philosophical or consequentialist. Both however come roughly to the same conclusions, with perhaps minor differences (such as gun rights or eminent domain). Technically speaking, classical liberalism doesn't exist any more (hence it's called "classical" liberalism) with it's modern variants being Libertarianism in the US, and neoliberal and conservative liberal parties in the EU and elsewhere.

Classical liberalism is a political philosophy and ideology belonging to liberalism in which primary emphasis is placed on securing the freedom of the individual by limiting the power of the government. The philosophy emerged as a response to the Industrial Revolution and urbanization in the 19th century in Europe and the United States.[1] It advocates civil liberties with a limited government under the rule of law, private property rights, and belief in laissez-faire economic liberalism.[2][3][4] Classical liberalism is built on ideas that had already arisen by the end of the 18th century, including ideas of Adam Smith, John Locke, Jean-Baptiste Say, Thomas Malthus, and David Ricardo. Its greatest expression as a political (as well as economic) philosophy in the 19th century was in the works of John Stuart Mill. It drew on a psychological understanding of individual liberty, natural law, utilitarianism, and a belief in progress.[5]

In the late 19th century, classical liberalism developed into neo-classical liberalism, which argued for government to be as small as possible in order to allow the exercise of individual freedom. In its most extreme form, it advocated Social Darwinism. Libertarianism is a modern form of neo-classical liberalism

[Arkolon]

The Euro is a single currency forced onto Nations that had very different economies. This caused a false boom and massive bust in Mediterrainian countries like Greece and Italy because they couldn't and can't handle the Euro. The North is alright because it is suited to the way their Economy worked, unlike the South.

I'm sure the Euro would have been fine restricted to the North, but introducing it to the Mediterrainian was a very bad move indeed.

The euro was not forced on any member country, and it has long been known that a lot of the European Union is in what Mundell called an "Optimum Currency Area"-- every single country of the Eurozone benefits more with a single currency than they would without it. Teams of expert economists and statisticians calculate OCA validity all day every day as a regular office job. This is no conspiracy. The issue in Greece is that it used Germany-backed confidence to have money lent to it to pay for things it could never afford. When the credit crunch hit, and creditors worldwide asked for their money back, Greece couldn't pay up. The austerity is needed to avoid Greek default. Future problems such as these can be easily avoided through fiscal harmonisation.

[Dejanic]

Aye, I generally agree with what you're saying. I'd phrase it in the sense that Libertarianism is a form of Classical Liberalism, but not all Classical Liberals are Libertarians. And Libertarianism is more politically applied to North America.

I'd disagree that Classical Liberalism is completely dead, I think that a resurgence could happen and that reform in particular is a good example of a seemingly Classical Liberal party. With Social Conservative thought generally dying out (whoop) I think more right wingers could turn towards Classical Liberalism.

But I don't think the ideology will ever win many minds, people like a bit of populism and a bit of a safety net. Classical Liberalism (like Libertarianism and radical Marxism) is too rigid and too ideological.

[Jackonia]

The Euro isn't working. Every Country does not benefit from the Euro at all! Greece is practically a protectorate, Italy and Spain are down the shoot and Portugal will be next. The Euro was a pathetic idea and needs to end pretty soon.

[Arkolon]

The Euro isn't working. Every Country does not benefit from the Euro at all! Greece is practically a protectorate, Italy and Spain are down the shoot and Portugal will be next. The Euro was a pathetic idea and needs to end pretty soon.

I just explained why Southern Europe, and Greece in particular, are currently struggling economically. It has to do with a lack of fiscal harmonisation.

[Dejanic]

The Euro isn't working. Every Country does not benefit from the Euro at all! Greece is practically a protectorate, Italy and Spain are down the shoot and Portugal will be next. The Euro was a pathetic idea and needs to end pretty soon.

Let me guess. Ukip? Or Jobbik perhaps?

Le Pen ring any bells?

[Jackonia]

UKIP.

[Dejanic]

UKIP.

So really, these views of yours aren't based on economic fact, but on immigration. Am I correct?

I mean, you seem to be ignoring others economic arguments, so I can only presume you dislike the EU because you dislike foreigners.

[Southern Hampshire]

The Euro isn't working. Every Country does not benefit from the Euro at all! Greece is practically a protectorate, Italy and Spain are down the shoot and Portugal will be next. The Euro was a pathetic idea and needs to end pretty soon.

Let me guess. Ukip? Or Jobbik perhaps?

Le Pen ring any bells?

He already said he's UKIP.

He's also blaming EU for the 2008 collapse and Labour for privatising NHS.

[Jackonia]

It would be pathetic and stupid to be against Immigration. Every Nation needs immigration. I am not against it. UKIP isn't either. It wants to control immigration unlike the others who like the idea of complete open borders to the whole of Europe.

An by the way, Labour did cause the economic cotastrophe and will again. Don't kid yourselves.

[Dejanic]

It would be pathetic and stupid to be against Immigration. Every Nation needs immigration. I am not against it. UKIP isn't either. It wants to control immigration unlike the others who like the idea of complete open borders to the whole of Europe.

An by the way, Labour did cause the economic cotastrophe and will again. Don't kid yourselves.

Was this through Labours NHS privatisation scheme? Should we trust the Socialism of the Tory party of the Council Communism of UKIP instead?

You're seriously confused, and oddly third positionist. I hope you get help.

[Arkolon]

It would be pathetic and stupid to be against Immigration. Every Nation needs immigration. I am not against it. UKIP isn't either. It wants to control immigration unlike the others who like the idea of complete open borders to the whole of Europe.

An by the way, Labour did cause the economic cotastrophe and will again. Don't kid yourselves.

Immigration fills labour market shortages better than any other program; "open borders", at least (and especially) with the rest of the EU, is a surefire way to boost economic growth and tax revenue. Why you would want to control and limit such potential is beyond me. Labour also didn't cause the catastrophe; I find it hard to believe a UK political party could have spurred a worldwide banking crisis on its own, or at all.

[Jackonia]

It would be pathetic and stupid to be against Immigration. Every Nation needs immigration. I am not against it. UKIP isn't either. It wants to control immigration unlike the others who like the idea of complete open borders to the whole of Europe.

An by the way, Labour did cause the economic cotastrophe and will again. Don't kid yourselves.

Immigration fills labour market shortages better than any other program; "open borders", at least (and especially) with the rest of the EU, is a surefire way to boost economic growth and tax revenue. Why you would want to control and limit such potential is beyond me. Labour also didn't cause the catastrophe; I find it hard to believe a UK political party could have spurred a worldwide banking crisis on its own, or at all.

I'm sorry, but National infrustructure cannot cope with the numbers of people arriving at the UK. It also influences Companies to employ cheap labour, which the Labour Party is a particular fan of, which drives up the unemployment rate of British citizens in favour of cheaper Eastern European alternatives.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Immigration fills labour market shortages better than any other program; "open borders", at least (and especially) with the rest of the EU, is a surefire way to boost economic growth and tax revenue. Why you would want to control and limit such potential is beyond me. Labour also didn't cause the catastrophe; I find it hard to believe a UK political party could have spurred a worldwide banking crisis on its own, or at all.

I'm sorry, but National infrustructure cannot cope with the numbers of people arriving at the UK. It also influences Companies to employ cheap labour, which the Labour Party is a particular fan of, which drives up the unemployment rate of British citizens in favour of cheaper Eastern European alternatives.

From a economic standpoint, immigration needs to be encouraged to the fullest extent. And, that study I just linked discusses effects of immigration on the UK. It points out that they increase GDP, are less likely to receive welfare, and are more likely to be employed.

[Southern Hampshire]

Immigration fills labour market shortages better than any other program; "open borders", at least (and especially) with the rest of the EU, is a surefire way to boost economic growth and tax revenue. Why you would want to control and limit such potential is beyond me. Labour also didn't cause the catastrophe; I find it hard to believe a UK political party could have spurred a worldwide banking crisis on its own, or at all.

I'm sorry, but National infrustructure cannot cope with the numbers of people arriving at the UK. It also influences Companies to employ cheap labour, which the Labour Party is a particular fan of, which drives up the unemployment rate of British citizens in favour of cheaper Eastern European alternatives.

What do you mean cheaper alternatives? The minimum wage is universal. It is the inherent self-entitlement some people (particularly from the North) have who say 'NO' to wages below £15/h.

You aren't worth any more than any other low skilled worker unless you possess unique productivity or specialisation.

[Teemant]

Seeing all the aspects of Estonian society it resembles a lot to Scandinavia. Just dont turn into Sweden.

Estonia is wannabe Scandinavia. Their goal is to be like a Nordic country in the long run, or so I've read.

Not so fast. Current prime minister (Reform Party) said Estonia will be a new type of a nordic country (not joining current scandinavian countries as they are but inventing a new nordic model). Soon Scandinavian countries will try to be like Estonia.

[Teemant]

The Euro isn't working. Every Country does not benefit from the Euro at all! Greece is practically a protectorate, Italy and Spain are down the shoot and Portugal will be next. The Euro was a pathetic idea and needs to end pretty soon.

Euro works. In Estonia trust in euro is over 70% consistently. Euro just can't save anybody from consequences of the mess they (South) themselves created. If South hadn't been using euro when crash happened their own currency wouldn't have been able to handle it.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

The Euro isn't working. Every Country does not benefit from the Euro at all! Greece is practically a protectorate, Italy and Spain are down the shoot and Portugal will be next. The Euro was a pathetic idea and needs to end pretty soon.

Euro works. In Estonia trust in euro is over 70% consistently. Euro just can't save anybody from consequences of the mess they (South) themselves created. If South hadn't been using euro when crash happened their own currency wouldn't have been able to handle it.

I'd argue that the primary reason behind the mess in Greece and Italy is because of massive borrowing when they joined the Eurozone. Because they were in a shared monetary union, they were able to borrow excessively to fund lavish welfare states that they wouldn't have been able to afford without the Euro. When the recession hit, they weren't able to borrow anymore, and now had massive debts to pay, which shrunk the GDP. The concept of the Euro is wonderful, and in many aspects, it has worked wonderful. But, you can either have a monetary and fiscal union, or no union at all.

[Teemant]

Euro works. In Estonia trust in euro is over 70% consistently. Euro just can't save anybody from consequences of the mess they (South) themselves created. If South hadn't been using euro when crash happened their own currency wouldn't have been able to handle it.

I'd argue that the primary reason behind the mess in Greece and Italy is because of massive borrowing when they joined the Eurozone. Because they were in a shared monetary union, they were able to borrow excessively to fund lavish welfare states that they wouldn't have been able to afford without the Euro. When the recession hit, they weren't able to borrow anymore, and now had massive debts to pay, which shrunk the GDP. The concept of the Euro is wonderful, and in many aspects, it has worked wonderful. But, you can either have a monetary and fiscal union, or no union at all.

Because they were in euro system probably allowed them to borrow more because investors trusted them.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

I'd argue that the primary reason behind the mess in Greece and Italy is because of massive borrowing when they joined the Eurozone. Because they were in a shared monetary union, they were able to borrow excessively to fund lavish welfare states that they wouldn't have been able to afford without the Euro. When the recession hit, they weren't able to borrow anymore, and now had massive debts to pay, which shrunk the GDP. The concept of the Euro is wonderful, and in many aspects, it has worked wonderful. But, you can either have a monetary and fiscal union, or no union at all.

Because they were in euro system probably allowed them to borrow more because investors trusted them.

Yes, exactly. That was part of the problem. But, the very fact that they could borrow excessively shows the problems with a monetary, but no fiscal union. European federalism FTW! Furthermore, Greece totally didn't lie about their debt upon joining. *glares at Greece*