Toddler Shoots and Kills Mother

[Big Jim P]

Ok, well, how about describing that situation like I asked for multiple times in the post you quoted. Preferably the sort of situation which could happen on a regular basis.

An attack or attempted robbery from someone with a melee weapon (knife, bat or similar).

People have successfully defended themselves against such attacks.

[Tubbsalot]

An attack or attempted robbery from someone with a melee weapon (knife, bat or similar).

The person presumably has their weapon ready and is at close range. You have to ready the gun and then use it at a range where a knife would be a superior weapon. Pepper spray would be a better choice for multiple reasons.

Ok, well, how about describing that situation like I asked for multiple times in the post you quoted. Preferably the sort of situation which could happen on a regular basis.

Describe it? there are plenty of examples of it already. Why do I need to describe a scenario that has already happened?

Because I'm not aware of these examples, can't think of any myself, and you're theoretically attempting to convince me of your views.

[Herskerstad]

Something bad happened.

Quick, ban everything!

[Big Jim P]

An attack or attempted robbery from someone with a melee weapon (knife, bat or similar).

The person presumably has their weapon ready and is at close range. You have to ready the gun and then use it at a range where a bat would be a superior weapon. Pepper spray would be a better choice for multiple reasons.

Describe it? there are plenty of examples of it already. Why do I need to describe a scenario that has already happened?

Because I'm not aware of these examples, can't think of any myself, and you're theoretically attempting to convince me of your views.

No, I am correcting your erroneous assumption. I do not care if you agree with my views. They are backed by evidence. For example (should you be inclined to look at evidence of your error), see the two conveniently labeled links in my sig.

[WestRedMaple]

There's no scenario in which a concealed firearm is a good option for self-defence.

Alrighty, your claim is obviously ridiculous, but let's give you a chance to support your wild claim: A guy walks up a few feet away from you on the sidewalk, points a gun at you, and threatens your life.....what tool for self-defense would you prefer? How is a concealed firearm useless? (Especially given the fact that it has been used quite successfully in exactly such a situation).

[Big Jim P]

There's no scenario in which a concealed firearm is a good option for self-defence.

Alrighty, your claim is obviously ridiculous, but let's give you a chance to support your wild claim: A guy walks up a few feet away from you on the sidewalk, points a gun at you, and threatens your life.....what tool for self-defense would you prefer? How is a concealed firearm useless? (Especially given the fact that it has been used quite successfully in exactly such a situation).

As I have tried to point out. None so blind as one who will not see.

[Lavan Tiri]

Something bad happened.

Quick, ban everything!

Of course! No need to let them think or reason, we can just prevent them from being human!


And remember, kiddies

[Shilya]

An attack or attempted robbery from someone with a melee weapon (knife, bat or similar).

The person presumably has their weapon ready and is at close range. You have to ready the gun and then use it at a range where a bat would be a superior weapon. Pepper spray would be a better choice for multiple reasons.

You can move outside of the range of immediate harm, or bring an obstacle between you and the attacker, while you ready the gun, which then gives you the advantage of range. A bat isn't a superior weapon at close range, but rather a credible danger. Many attackers would also already back off simply knowing that you're willing and able to defend yourself. Your wallet isn't worth your life, but to him it isn't worth his life either. Of course, you need to be confident in your abilities.

Pepper spray can be pretty unreliable, depending on the circumstances, and not guaranteed to disable/deter an attacker for long enough to permit an escape. If you're unlucky, all you did was piss them off.

[Esternial]

Perhaps, but most firearms on the civilian market have some form of safety.

True, but not external safeties. Revolvers don't have them, nor do Glocks (on of the most popular handguns on the market).

Might be better to just not sell the type of weaponry that doesn't have an external safety or doesn't require the hammer to be cocked initially.

There are plenty of firearms that do have either of those features and training yourself to take the safety off your own weapon isn't that big of a discomfort, but maybe that's just me.

[Fartsniffage]

There's no scenario in which a concealed firearm is a good option for self-defence.

Alrighty, your claim is obviously ridiculous, but let's give you a chance to support your wild claim: A guy walks up a few feet away from you on the sidewalk, points a gun at you, and threatens your life.....what tool for self-defense would you prefer? How is a concealed firearm useless? (Especially given the fact that it has been used quite successfully in exactly such a situation).

If a person had a gun pointed at you from a few feet away, would you really try to draw a gun?

[Big Jim P]

True, but not external safeties. Revolvers don't have them, nor do Glocks (on of the most popular handguns on the market).

Might be better to just not sell the type of weaponry that doesn't have an external safety or doesn't require the hammer to be cocked initially.

There are plenty of firearms that do have either of those features and training yourself to take the safety off your own weapon isn't that big of a discomfort, but maybe that's just me.

Both weapons that I mentioned have plenty of internal safeties to prevent accidental discharges. Modern revolvers (with the transfer bar system) are inherently safe.

Edit: The safeties on a Glock can be disabled, but that requires disassembling the gun and reassembling it with a round chambered. Anyone that stupid should be shot.

[WestRedMaple]

An attack or attempted robbery from someone with a melee weapon (knife, bat or similar).

The person presumably has their weapon ready and is at close range. You have to ready the gun and then use it at a range where a knife would be a superior weapon. Pepper spray would be a better choice for multiple reasons.

Describe it? there are plenty of examples of it already. Why do I need to describe a scenario that has already happened?

Because I'm not aware of these examples, can't think of any myself, and you're theoretically attempting to convince me of your views.

A knife is nearly always less effective than a firearm. Unless you're already in a situation where you are wrapped up grappling with an opponent, a firearm is the clear winner. A knife is a poor choice for self-defense. It has very poor stopping ability in comparison to a firearm or bludgeoning weapon. Pepper spray is quite inadequate. It's range is very short, it is quite ineffective if you cannot get at someone's face, it's not very effective on everyone, a decent wind can make it very difficult to use or even cause you to get more of it than your target, recovery from its effects is much faster, and even if you've effectively applied it, it still has less stopping power than a firearm, leaving your attacker more opportunity to hurt you.

[WestRedMaple]

Alrighty, your claim is obviously ridiculous, but let's give you a chance to support your wild claim: A guy walks up a few feet away from you on the sidewalk, points a gun at you, and threatens your life.....what tool for self-defense would you prefer? How is a concealed firearm useless? (Especially given the fact that it has been used quite successfully in exactly such a situation).

If a person had a gun pointed at you from a few feet away, would you really try to draw a gun?

If the alternative is worse, then most certainly. A guy I went to high school with did it and survived without a scratch.....which would be far better in my opinion than getting shot by the criminal

[Tubbsalot]

Alrighty, your claim is obviously ridiculous, but let's give you a chance to support your wild claim: A guy walks up a few feet away from you on the sidewalk, points a gun at you, and threatens your life.....what tool for self-defense would you prefer? How is a concealed firearm useless? (Especially given the fact that it has been used quite successfully in exactly such a situation).

If someone's pointing a gun at you and wants to kill you, you're fucked. Doesn't matter whether you have a gun, a knife, pepper spray or nothing. Your wallet would probably be a much better option than any of those.

But if you really wanted to try, you'd probably have the best chance if you lunged at them and attempted to grapple the gun away unarmed.

edit: oh yeah, it's also worth noting that I asked for realistic scenarios. This is not a realistic scenario. People don't just walk up to random strangers and inform them they're going to be shot. The closest you'd get is in gang initiations, and even then, no.

No, I am correcting your erroneous assumption. I do not care if you agree with my views. They are backed by evidence. For example (should you be inclined to look at evidence of your error), see the two conveniently labeled links in my sig.

Great. "You're wrong but I can't be bothered explaining why, just read through these giant lists which may or may not have anything to do with your question. Don't worry about the site being called 'guns save lives,' they're not biased or cherrypicking or anything like that. Peace out."

[Big Jim P]

Alrighty, your claim is obviously ridiculous, but let's give you a chance to support your wild claim: A guy walks up a few feet away from you on the sidewalk, points a gun at you, and threatens your life.....what tool for self-defense would you prefer? How is a concealed firearm useless? (Especially given the fact that it has been used quite successfully in exactly such a situation).

If someone's pointing a gun at you and wants to kill you, you're fucked. Doesn't matter whether you have a gun, a knife, pepper spray or nothing. Your wallet would probably be a much better option than any of those.

But if you really wanted to try, you'd probably have the best chance if you lunged at them and attempted to grapple the gun away unarmed.

No, I am correcting your erroneous assumption. I do not care if you agree with my views. They are backed by evidence. For example (should you be inclined to look at evidence of your error), see the two conveniently labeled links in my sig.

Great. "You're wrong but I can't be bothered explaining why, just read through these giant lists which may or may not have anything to do with your question. Don't worry about the site being called 'guns save lives,' they're not biased or cherrypicking or anything like that. Peace out."

"Reading a giant list" of documented cases that proved your statement about guns being useless for self defense wrong.

[New Tsavon]

The article in the OP says he grabbed the weapon from the purse and discharged it.

That indicates that the weapon's safety was not engaged.

Or perhaps he grabbed it from the purse and fiddled with it for five seconds before it discharged. Given that the primary witness would have been the toddler, his testimony is probably not super reliable, even assuming he was grilled by the police on the exact way in which he killed his mum immediately after it happened.

We'll never know, then.

A safety takes a little more than "five seconds" to disable if you have no idea about what you're doing.

Is self-defense not a "reasonable application"?

No. Depending on the situation, either you can't draw the weapon, or you could use a non-lethal weapon instead. There's no scenario in which a concealed firearm is a good option for self-defence.

That's ridiculous.

There are a lot of examples of firearms being used for self defense.

[Fartsniffage]

If a person had a gun pointed at you from a few feet away, would you really try to draw a gun?

If the alternative is worse, then most certainly. A guy I went to high school with did it and survived without a scratch.....which would be far better in my opinion than getting shot by the criminal

That just seems like the most stupid action one could take in such a circumstance. Unless one is subject to a mob hit then surely the odds of surviving the encounter are much higher if one just complies with the demands of the criminal.

[Big Jim P]

Or perhaps he grabbed it from the purse and fiddled with it for five seconds before it discharged. Given that the primary witness would have been the toddler, his testimony is probably not super reliable, even assuming he was grilled by the police on the exact way in which he killed his mum immediately after it happened.

We'll never know, then.

A safety takes a little more than "five seconds" to disable if you have no idea about what you're doing.

No. Depending on the situation, either you can't draw the weapon, or you could use a non-lethal weapon instead. There's no scenario in which a concealed firearm is a good option for self-defence.

That's ridiculous.

There are a lot of examples of firearms being used for self defense.

Which Tubbs refuses to acknowledge.

[Ayreonia]

Or perhaps he grabbed it from the purse and fiddled with it for five seconds before it discharged. Given that the primary witness would have been the toddler, his testimony is probably not super reliable, even assuming he was grilled by the police on the exact way in which he killed his mum immediately after it happened.

We'll never know, then.

A safety takes a little more than "five seconds" to disable if you have no idea about what you're doing.

Not necessarily. There aren't that many moving parts on the exterior of a gun.

[Esternial]

Might be better to just not sell the type of weaponry that doesn't have an external safety or doesn't require the hammer to be cocked initially.

There are plenty of firearms that do have either of those features and training yourself to take the safety off your own weapon isn't that big of a discomfort, but maybe that's just me.

Both weapons that I mentioned have plenty of internal safeties to prevent accidental discharges. Modern revolvers (with the transfer bar system) are inherently safe.

Edit: The safeties on a Glock can be disabled, but that requires disassembling the gun and reassembling it with a round chambered. Anyone that stupid should be shot.

Ah, I see.

Ultimately that goes to show, then, that having a gun out in public is just an extra hazard for you and others.

[Big Jim P]

Alrighty, your claim is obviously ridiculous, but let's give you a chance to support your wild claim: A guy walks up a few feet away from you on the sidewalk, points a gun at you, and threatens your life.....what tool for self-defense would you prefer? How is a concealed firearm useless? (Especially given the fact that it has been used quite successfully in exactly such a situation).

If someone's pointing a gun at you and wants to kill you, you're fucked. Doesn't matter whether you have a gun, a knife, pepper spray or nothing. Your wallet would probably be a much better option than any of those.

But if you really wanted to try, you'd probably have the best chance if you lunged at them and attempted to grapple the gun away unarmed.

edit: oh yeah, it's also worth noting that I asked for realistic scenarios. This is not a realistic scenario. People don't just walk up to random strangers and inform them they're going to be shot. The closest you'd get is in gang initiations, and even then, no.

Why are you insisting on realistic scenarios when examples of real incidents have been presented?

[Shilya]

A safety takes a little more than "five seconds" to disable if you have no idea about what you're doing.

If you have no idea what you're doing, you shouldn't be carrying a gun.

[Master Shake]

I'd prefer to see restrictions on firearms in houses with children, but we've also got to educate people about the dangers of these weapons. This woman clearly wasn't carrying the gun in a safe spot. Can we make sure that people know how to properly and safely carry and store firearms?

Probably not. Any attempt to deny access to firearms to those who can't or won't keep and use them safely would likely be seen as a prelude to shipping people off to FEMA death camps and establishing the Islamic Caliphate of Obamastan.

This...

We at least need to have a fighting chance. They already have those mobile microwave beam cannons that can knock you down if you aren't complying


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvZCz_3Fqog

Shit without guns they might as well just march us to the camps now and skip all the laws about making it illegal to be homeless....

[Soldati Senza Confini]

http://www.idaho.gov/laws_rules/firearm.html

Purchasing Firearms

There is no state permit required for the purchase of any rifle, shotgun, or handgun.

It is unlawful to directly or indirectly sell to any minor under the age of eighteen years any weapon without the written consent of the parent or guardian of the minor.

No state permit is required to possess a rifle, shotgun or handgun.

You need to pass a test to get a drivers licence. You should also need to pass a test to get a shooters licence.

WTF?

I think that in Texas you gotta have a permit.

[Big Jim P]

Both weapons that I mentioned have plenty of internal safeties to prevent accidental discharges. Modern revolvers (with the transfer bar system) are inherently safe.

Edit: The safeties on a Glock can be disabled, but that requires disassembling the gun and reassembling it with a round chambered. Anyone that stupid should be shot.

Ah, I see.

Ultimately that goes to show, then, that having a gun out in public is just an extra hazard for you and others.

No, it goes to show that guns have advanced beyond the need for external safeties.