by Arkolon » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:19 am
by Skeckoa » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:07 pm
Arkolon wrote:The entitlement theory does, however, include a very important, frequently forgotten principle of justice: what Nozick called the Lockean proviso. The Lockean proviso holds that, although we have the natural prerequisites for the appropriation of private property, its cogency is derived from the fact that land was once common to all, so any appropriation, or continued use, of it has to be compensated by the acquisitor. If such an act is not compensated, then it is considered an initiation of force according to propertarian libertarian ethics.
Ownership, as I am sure you agree, comes with the ability to exclude people from its usage. Since cotton can be taxed under this principle, since it came from once common land, does that mean that I do not own my shirt, but that the state does? Since ownership also implies that you can charge for usage, the state taxes my shirt. Fine. Can they prevent me from using the shirt. (Assuming that the state has been declared a legitimate agent by which people can be compensated for the fact that they rented (essentially) the land used to grow the cotton)Arkolon wrote: But we must ask ourselves, is the Lockean proviso solely limited to the acquisition of private property, as it has been used all this time? Moreover, if the taxation of land is justified according to this notion, why are all other forms of taxation considered coercive in the eyes of propertarian libertarians?
by Arkolon » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:49 pm
Skeckoa wrote:1. Why does one particular state have more of a right to acquire compensation from the landowner, as opposed to any other state? How do states go about claiming land that they can tax? What does this say about states that have fallen, and have been replaced afterwards? Some states have fallen, and have fallen into Civil War, why does one side have the right to tax in the name of the people, but the other does not (the only difference being that one side won the war)?
1.5 What if people do not feel that their state is a fair, or legitimate agent for acquiring that compensation?
2. What makes people more or less worthy of receiving compensation for the land use. I would think that it would have to do with prior use and proximity. How would this work with modern nations? Could it work with modern nations? I am in closer proximity to Tijuana, Mexico than I am to New York, New York. However, with modern states (ie. the USA), I would have to compensate New Yorkers for my use of land (if things stay as they are right now, maybe this is more appropriate to work with smaller states), but not Tijuanans.
3. How is the value decided? Should someone who owns a shack in the Sahara Desert have to pay the same as someone who owns land along the fertile part of the Nile River? Maybe a flat tax?
4. How is it that all land was commonly owned? Isn't it the idea that no one owned the land? If everyone owned it, I understand that people would have to be compensated, however, what happens to land that were truly never used, and previously barren?
Also, the idea is that you compensate the people that you have gotten land from.
However, being many plots of land have been owned for centuries, wouldn't the original people affected have all died by now? Did they pass rights to compensation on to their kin? If someone immigrates to California today, why are they privy to compensation for someone's use of land that was settled centuries prior?
Thank you in advance.
by New HastoffMaljagan » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:51 pm
by Arkolon » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:58 pm
Skeckoa wrote:5. This question is a bit different. Even if Lockean Synthesis justifies the powers that a modern state wields, does it justify all of their actions, such as how the money is spent?
Ownership, as I am sure you agree, comes with the ability to exclude people from its usage. Since cotton can be taxed under this principle, since it came from once common land, does that mean that I do not own my shirt, but that the state does?
by Arkolon » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:00 pm
New HastoffMaljagan wrote:Although yes you can argue that consciousness is a outcome of all the bodily organs and whatnot, however the conscious is most affected by it's environment.
by Constantinopolis » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:51 pm
by Arkolon » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:01 pm
Constantinopolis wrote:I have found, after some study and extensive debate, that the link between philosophy and politics is far weaker than commonly supposed by political philosophers.
In other words, a given philosophy can be used to justify almost any set of political and economic arrangements. And, likewise, a given set of political and economic arrangements can be justified by appeal to almost any philosophy.
I used to be a strong consequentialist, but today I no longer seek to justify my political views by appeal to any particular philosophy.
by Conserative Morality » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:06 pm
Constantinopolis wrote:I have found, after some study and extensive debate, that the link between philosophy and politics is far weaker than commonly supposed by political philosophers.
In other words, a given philosophy can be used to justify almost any set of political and economic arrangements. And, likewise, a given set of political and economic arrangements can be justified by appeal to almost any philosophy.
Thus, in my view, the attempt to draw clear political conclusions from philosophical first principles is doomed. As a result of this realization I have lost interest in political philosophy. I used to be a strong consequentialist, but today I no longer seek to justify my political views by appeal to any particular philosophy.
Sooner or later, anyone with a serious interest in political philosophy must realize that their philosophy can lead to a large array of different political conclusions, and therefore either:
(a) abandon their commitment to any specific ideology in order to remain true to their philosophy
or (b) abandon their commitment to any specific philosophy in order to remain true to their ideology.
I have chosen to do (b). It seems that your Lockean synthesis and abandonment of libertarianism represents a choice to do (a).
by Fortschritte » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:11 pm
Merizoc wrote:Wait, what? Ark's not a minarchist/libertarian anymore? I'll have to read this very, very closely then.
by Arkolon » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:13 pm
Merizoc wrote:Wait, what? Ark's not a minarchist/libertarian anymore? I'll have to read this very, very closely then.
by MERIZoC » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:15 pm
Arkolon wrote:Merizoc wrote:Wait, what? Ark's not a minarchist/libertarian anymore? I'll have to read this very, very closely then.
Well, in any case, I blurred the lines between libertarianism and modern statism. Although my philosophy hasn't totally changed, I ascribe to a different ideology, one that allows legroom for pragmatism.
by Arkolon » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:17 pm
Fortschritte wrote:Merizoc wrote:Wait, what? Ark's not a minarchist/libertarian anymore? I'll have to read this very, very closely then.
No, he abandoned it.
Anyways, to address the OP, I definitely found what you wrote to be interesting, well thought out, and intelligent. However, I find that you spend far to much time trying to base your political and economic ideology solely off of philosophy. Nothing is wrong with having political philosophy as a foundation behind your ideology, most people do that, but when your political and economic opinions must be determined by general philosophy, it makes you ideologically stubborn. In my opinion, it makes one blind to political pragmatism, and looking at what works best for societies and people.
But, hey, at least you're no longer a minarchist.
by Arkolon » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:18 pm
by Fortschritte » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:23 pm
Arkolon wrote:Fortschritte wrote:
No, he abandoned it.
Anyways, to address the OP, I definitely found what you wrote to be interesting, well thought out, and intelligent. However, I find that you spend far to much time trying to base your political and economic ideology solely off of philosophy. Nothing is wrong with having political philosophy as a foundation behind your ideology, most people do that, but when your political and economic opinions must be determined by general philosophy, it makes you ideologically stubborn. In my opinion, it makes one blind to political pragmatism, and looking at what works best for societies and people.
But, hey, at least you're no longer a minarchist.
I think that, after coming across all the political philosophies and philosophers I have over the years, it is very hard to seriously justify consequentialism. It is too sloppy of a position to take, and it can, eventually, justify absolutely anything. That is not always right. I prefer the Kantian philosophies of humans as ends within themselves-- true humanism-- and really basing off philosophy from that. Whatever that might make me; stubborn, a minarchist, a libertarian-- I can only see it as more just, and more accepted, within the world of political philosophy. After all, what is happy living without meaning, reason, or purpose?
The compliments are nonetheless appreciated.
by Arkolon » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:38 pm
Fortschritte wrote:Arkolon wrote:I think that, after coming across all the political philosophies and philosophers I have over the years, it is very hard to seriously justify consequentialism. It is too sloppy of a position to take, and it can, eventually, justify absolutely anything. That is not always right. I prefer the Kantian philosophies of humans as ends within themselves-- true humanism-- and really basing off philosophy from that. Whatever that might make me; stubborn, a minarchist, a libertarian-- I can only see it as more just, and more accepted, within the world of political philosophy. After all, what is happy living without meaning, reason, or purpose?
The compliments are nonetheless appreciated.
I wouldn't say that what I'm arguing for is consequentialism. I'm not necessarily saying that in the end, all that matters are the consequences.
by Fortschritte » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:43 pm
Arkolon wrote:Fortschritte wrote:
I wouldn't say that what I'm arguing for is consequentialism. I'm not necessarily saying that in the end, all that matters are the consequences.
That's what consequentialism is...
Deontological political philosophers would not believe in what they did if they knew the outcomes would be disastrous. Depending on your axioms, goals, and influences, it is very hard to justify anything in political philosophy, hence its relatively slow progression. Consequentialism, however, takes the view that "if it works, it's ethically just", or "... we should do it". There are plenty of ways to disprove this utilitarian argument, and Nozick was probably more famous in general academia for his critiques of classical utilitarianism than for his political philosophy. Might I add that the most famous consequentialist is probably Macchiavelli, by the way.
You can be pragmatic while not being a consequentialist. Political theory is by and large a philosophical realm.
by Fortschritte » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:50 pm
Kelinfort wrote:Welcome to the family, Ark.
Although, I wish that second number was a bit more negative.
by MERIZoC » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:50 pm
Kelinfort wrote:Welcome to the family, Ark.
Although, I wish that second number was a bit more negative.
by Immoren » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:53 pm
discoursedrome wrote:everyone knows that quote, "I know not what weapons World War Three will be fought, but World War Four will be fought with sticks and stones," but in a way it's optimistic and inspiring because it suggests that even after destroying civilization and returning to the stone age we'll still be sufficiently globalized and bellicose to have another world war right then and there
by Arkolon » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:55 pm
Fortschritte wrote:Arkolon wrote:That's what consequentialism is...
Deontological political philosophers would not believe in what they did if they knew the outcomes would be disastrous. Depending on your axioms, goals, and influences, it is very hard to justify anything in political philosophy, hence its relatively slow progression. Consequentialism, however, takes the view that "if it works, it's ethically just", or "... we should do it". There are plenty of ways to disprove this utilitarian argument, and Nozick was probably more famous in general academia for his critiques of classical utilitarianism than for his political philosophy. Might I add that the most famous consequentialist is probably Macchiavelli, by the way.
You can be pragmatic while not being a consequentialist. Political theory is by and large a philosophical realm.
Well, then you've given me quite a few things to think about regarding philosophies in general. I know very little about philosophy, and only know the basic ideas behind certain philosophies. Perhaps I need to do some research.
by Arkolon » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:58 pm
Kelinfort wrote:Welcome to the family, Ark.
Although, I wish that second number was a bit more negative.
Advertisement
Users browsing this forum: Aadhiris, El Lazaro, Google [Bot], Hidrandia, Ineva, Keltionialang, Maximum Imperium Rex, New Temecula, Sarolandia, Shrillland, Statesburg, Thal Dorthat, The Vooperian Union, Uiiop, Vanuzgard, Yanitza
Advertisement