What do you think about anarchists?

[Servica]

I think you fail to realize one thing: anarchy is merely progressive unorthodoxy taken to the radical extreme.
It's any realization that blind orthodoxy does not produce progress and that there should always be independence and spontaneity to ensure that mankind does not stagnate.

How is anarchism "unorthodox" compared to, say, any unpopular ideology in a state? Your use of the word unorthodox is meaningless because all it means is different from the standard line.

The ultimate goal of anarchism is not to waste effort on establishing places to be conquered, but establishing a core of reasonable individuals within the pillars of society, from which everything stems, and establishing in many ways points in history from which the future generations can learn from.

This can be said of almost every ideology.

Any disillusioned veteran of anarchist Catalonia would agree to this notion, since it's an inevitable realization among them that defeat can come at any moment.

Defeat is almost certain, in fact.

I know that defeat is certain. But, I also know that change occurs at the global scale. It's evident in the change of culture, hence ways, that have occurred during the 200,000 year-history of modern humans. We overcame our fear of fire, developed agriculture, mathematics, construction, sought new continents, developed steel, created things that are not solid (the internet), traced our origins to the molecular and cosmic scale, and still we've always looked at the past and realized how stupid we've been. That's the important thing - and luckily for us: it's a party that never ends. New hosts, new comers, and an endless stream of shenanigans to be played. I don't see a reason for it to end, just as there is no reason for it to even have begun.

To quote a certain english band:
Come and join the party, leave anxieties behind
When the weight of all the world is pushing down
Just push right back!

[Page]

I've always thought it was a cop out to say anarchism "doesn't work." What defines a working society? There is a degree of justice, injustice, human suffering, human happiness, sustainability and problems in everything from the Paris Commune to the USA to North Korea. It can only really be compared to other systems. The problem is that in a world where the institution of the state exists, anarchists will be inevitably opposed and subjugated. Therefore it's impossible to know.

[Estva]

I know that defeat is certain. But, I also know that change occurs at the global scale. It's evident in the change of culture, hence ways, that have occurred during the 200,000 year-history of modern humans. We overcame our fear of fire, developed agriculture, mathematics, construction, sought new continents, developed steel, created things that are not solid (the internet), traced our origins to the molecular and cosmic scale, and still we've always looked at the past and realized how stupid we've been. That's the important thing - and luckily for us: it's a party that never ends. New hosts, new comers, and an endless stream of shenanigans to be played.

To quote a certain english band:
Come and join the party, leave anxieties behind
When the weight of all the world is pushing down
Just push right back!

The problem here is you are assuming anarchism is some sort of inevitable social policy that we will eventually be progressive enough to adopt.

Maybe, in the far, far future, technological inventions will make that possible, but is not anywhere in the foreseeable future.

[Skinia]

No, but you seem to have trouble grasping the difference between anarchy and statelessness. Also, you contradicted yourself.

No, I did not.

What the fuck does statelessness have to do with businesses?

First you said anarchy means no rulers.
Then you said capitalism has rulers.

Gotta love ancap doublethink.

Since anarchy means no rulers but capitalism has rulers and you oppose states as an ancap, I'd say you're merely an anti-statist instead of anarchist.

[Skinia]

Grats for equating a stalinist to anarchists.

Who said anything about Stanlinism?

The New Age Republic talked about 'Modern day Che Guevaras'. In case you weren't aware, Che Guevara was a stalinist.

[The Lone Star Republics]

*tips fedora*

[The Lone Star Republics]

i think its kinda funny how many "anarchists" want to see things banned. i cant take an "anarchist" serious if they want a complete end to religion.

[The Liberated Territories]

Anarchy? A noble, yet unachievable idea that boils economics and philosophy down to one grandiose hatred of the state.

It's evidently not unachievable.

Only if you wish to give up everything we worked for in the last several millennium, which if I can speak as one of the proletariat, something that I do not desire at all.

[Servica]

I know that defeat is certain. But, I also know that change occurs at the global scale. It's evident in the change of culture, hence ways, that have occurred during the 200,000 year-history of modern humans. We overcame our fear of fire, developed agriculture, mathematics, construction, sought new continents, developed steel, created things that are not solid (the internet), traced our origins to the molecular and cosmic scale, and still we've always looked at the past and realized how stupid we've been. That's the important thing - and luckily for us: it's a party that never ends. New hosts, new comers, and an endless stream of shenanigans to be played.

To quote a certain english band:
Come and join the party, leave anxieties behind
When the weight of all the world is pushing down
Just push right back!

The problem here is you are assuming anarchism is some sort of inevitable social policy that we will eventually be progressive enough to adopt.

Maybe, in the far, far future, technological inventions will make that possible, but is not anywhere in the foreseeable future.

Well, i'm glad we've finally found our first common ground, or rather our first point of agreeing to disagree.
And I agree with you, the world is still a tad unready. But that's not stopping anyone from learning from the past, and neither is it stopping any efforts from being carried out. Not all experiments produce favorable results.

[Servica]

i think its kinda funny how many "anarchists" want to see things banned. i cant take an "anarchist" serious if they want a complete end to religion.

It's true that you can't ban religion, but opinions are seldom permanent.

[Estva]

The problem here is you are assuming anarchism is some sort of inevitable social policy that we will eventually be progressive enough to adopt.

Maybe, in the far, far future, technological inventions will make that possible, but is not anywhere in the foreseeable future.

Well, i'm glad we've finally found our first common ground.
And I agree with you, the world is still a tad unready. But that's not stopping anyone from learning from the past, and neither is it stopping any efforts from being carried out. Not all experiments produce favorable results.

Learning from the past does not make states seem unappealing, but actually make them appear necessary(as they are). If states ever do phase out of existence, it will be because of a general fade from relevancy as people don't think they are needed anymore. They will not need to learn from history.

[Skinia]

i think its kinda funny how many "anarchists" want to see things banned. i cant take an "anarchist" serious if they want a complete end to religion.

Got a source on that one, or is it just a strawman?

[The Liberated Territories]

i think its kinda funny how many "anarchists" want to see things banned. i cant take an "anarchist" serious if they want a complete end to religion.

Got a source on that one, or is it just a strawman?

Actual anarchists: The CNT in Spain banned religious education and going to church.

[Servica]

Got a source on that one, or is it just a strawman?

Actual anarchists: The CNT in Spain banned religious education and going to church.

Well, that's good. There weren't anarchist churches, neither.. so it's just fair that nobody gets a hold of popular opinion.

[The Liberated Territories]

Actual anarchists: The CNT in Spain banned religious education and going to church.

Well, that's good. There weren't anarchist churches, neither.. so it's just fair that nobody gets a hold of popular opinion.

Typical communist. "If he can't have anything, nobody can!"

Tell me comrade Stalin, how your anarchist utopia would be desirable to anyone that wishes to establish a religion, make a business, or attempt to achieve conditions better than "squalor?"

[Soselo]

Anarchists, I don't value these people over others.

[Skinia]

Got a source on that one, or is it just a strawman?

Actual anarchists: The CNT in Spain banned religious education and going to church.

Yeah, well that's pretty fucking idiotic for CNT and anti-anarchist. Got one Finn working for the CNT in this facebook group. He threatened another Finnish anarchist with death and then spread rumors in CNT's own Facebook group that he was a fascist and nazi. Gotta love those kinds of backstabbers. If the CNT actually bought all that bullshit then I gotta say they're complete fucking idiots.

[The Liberated Territories]

Actual anarchists: The CNT in Spain banned religious education and going to church.

Yeah, well that's pretty fucking idiotic for CNT and anti-anarchist. Got one Finn working for the CNT in this facebook group. He threatened another Finnish anarchist with death and then spread rumors in CNT's own Facebook group that he was a fascist and nazi. Gotta love those kinds of backstabbers. If the CNT actually bought all that bullshit then I gotta say they're complete fucking idiots.

At least you are honest. I give you my respect.

Anarcho-primitivists still have yet to earn it.

[MERIZoC]

i think its kinda funny how many "anarchists" want to see things banned. i cant take an "anarchist" serious if they want a complete end to religion.

Ladies and Gents, the strawman bullshit meter is off the charts.

[Unified Imperial States]

Some are spoiled teenagers, but I'd like to think that most others are intelligent. They just happen to be idealists that don't realize the survival of the human race depends on an organised society capable of transforming itself into an interstellar space faring society.

[Kincoboh]

Got a source on that one, or is it just a strawman?

Actual anarchists: The CNT in Spain banned religious education and going to church.

Did they really try to ban religion, or did they try to eliminate the hierarchical nature of religion, where the masses are led by organized religion?

[Servica]

Well, i'm glad we've finally found our first common ground.
And I agree with you, the world is still a tad unready. But that's not stopping anyone from learning from the past, and neither is it stopping any efforts from being carried out. Not all experiments produce favorable results.

Learning from the past does not make states seem unappealing, but actually make them appear necessary(as they are). If states ever do phase out of existence, it will be because of a general fade from relevancy as people don't think they are needed anymore. They will not need to learn from history.

I agree with that...
But i'm still an anarchist.
Still, it's like you stole from my mind what I would have said otherwise.
BUT I think all the unorthodox activity and unrest are part of that process.
If states keep founding themselves in the fashion of their precedents, experimental societies would be founded in the same fashion as their precedents too. It's because they seem to be separate things from everyone's standpoint.

And yet there still needs to be an obliteration of unnecessary constraints upon the individual and society and such challenges to be overcome. Homophobia, sexism, pseudoscience, crimes against humanity, war, exploitation and such. You may not agree that all of those need to be dealt with, but there will be people who will.

[Skinia]

Some are spoiled teenagers, but I'd like to think that most others are intelligent. They just happen to be idealists that don't realize the survival of the human race depends on an organised society capable of transforming itself into an interstellar space faring society.

Yay! Stereotypes!

[The Grim Reaper]

Got a source on that one, or is it just a strawman?

Actual anarchists: The CNT in Spain banned religious education and going to church.

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/1 ... 633508.php

The CNT's argument is that they targeted religious organizations and the imposition of religious values upon others.

My understanding of religion in Republican Spain is rather lacking, admittedly, and a cursory Google search of "CNT religion" seems to show works that mainly cite CNT-sympathetic period texts, potentially because of search history.

I can see some comments that they banned 'ceremonies', but at this time of night I'm not going to go hunting for anything more than the euphemisms the CNT itself used, and there is little else on the first page of Google search.

[The Liberated Territories]

Actual anarchists: The CNT in Spain banned religious education and going to church.

Did they really try to ban religion, or did they try to eliminate the hierarchical nature of religion, where the masses are led by organized religion?

They banned religion:

Needless to say, there was little or no freedom of religion in the Anarchist collectives. While many accounts praise the Anarchists' lavish educational spending, they rarely point out that a major goal was to brainwash the next generation. As Thomas describes, "Church schools were shut: 'The revolutionary will of the people has suppressed schools of confessional tendency. Now is the turn of the new school, based on rationalist principles of work and human fraternity.'"[88].

[88] Thomas, op. cit., p.298.

The CNT , the leading libertarian organ in Madrid, declared editorially: "Catholicism must be swept away implacably. We demand not that every church be destroyed, but that no vestige of religion should remain in any of them and that the black spider of fanaticism should not be allowed to spin the viscous and dusty web in which our moral and material values have until now been caught like flies. In Spain, more than any other country, the Catholic church has been at the head of every retrograde aim, of every measure taken against the people, of every attack on liberty."