Cleaveland Officer Shoots A 12 YEAR OLD

[Gun Manufacturers]

Of all the people present, the police officer is trained to be the most qualified to judge for himself whether the gun was real or not; others are but amateurs. As a result, if the judgment happens to be wrong, as in this case, he is to blame.

I'm pretty well versed in firearms (including a 1911 similar to the airsoft gun that Tamir Rice had), and I saw a picture of the airsoft gun. Unless I had it in my hands and was closely examining it, I would have thought it was a real firearm as well.

[Themiclesia]

Of all the people present, the police officer is trained to be the most qualified to judge for himself whether the gun was real or not; others are but amateurs. As a result, if the judgment happens to be wrong, as in this case, he is to blame.

I'm pretty well versed in firearms (including a 1911 similar to the airsoft gun that Tamir Rice had), and I saw a picture of the airsoft gun. Unless I had it in my hands and was closely examining it, I would have thought it was a real firearm as well.

Yet will you be absolutely certain when viewed from a distance?

[Gun Manufacturers]

I'm pretty well versed in firearms (including a 1911 similar to the airsoft gun that Tamir Rice had), and I saw a picture of the airsoft gun. Unless I had it in my hands and was closely examining it, I would have thought it was a real firearm as well.

Yet will you be absolutely certain when viewed from a distance?

No, I wouldn't have been certain, THAT'S MY POINT. It looked real enough that anybody in that situation would have had to assume that the gun was a real firearm. And when Tamir Rice reached for it, it would have been reasonable for anyone to assume that their life was in mortal danger, and they would have had justification to defend themselves.

[Esternial]

My main issue here is that the right to self defense seems to trump the value of a person's life.

Those officers got themselves in a situation where they had to open fire. They acted hastily and that got a child shot.

I would prefer that police officers remain calm and don't drive into a situation where there might be an armed suspect to a distance of several feet. That's just putting yourself in a more dangerous situation than you should.

[Themiclesia]

Yet will you be absolutely certain when viewed from a distance?

No, I wouldn't have been certain, THAT'S MY POINT. It looked real enough that anybody in that situation would have had to assume that the gun was a real firearm. And when Tamir Rice reached for it, it would have been reasonable for anyone to assume that their life was in mortal danger, and they would have had justification to defend themselves.

Is this an issue of the proper performance of professional duty, or an issue of self-defence?

Like I say, a police officer can't defend his own life to the detriment of others. Especially when the child wasn't even pointing his gun at the officer; unless it somehow can be demonstrated that he intended to shoot from his pocket.

[Esternial]

No, I wouldn't have been certain, THAT'S MY POINT. It looked real enough that anybody in that situation would have had to assume that the gun was a real firearm. And when Tamir Rice reached for it, it would have been reasonable for anyone to assume that their life was in mortal danger, and they would have had justification to defend themselves.

Is this an issue of the proper performance of professional duty, or an issue of self-defence?

Like I say, a police officer can't defend his own life to the detriment of others. Especially when the child wasn't even pointing his gun at the officer; unless it somehow can be demonstrated that he intended to shoot from his pocket.

I see. I follow your reasoning, but I'm not sure GM does. Not sure how to rephrase it, though.

[Themiclesia]

Is this an issue of the proper performance of professional duty, or an issue of self-defence?

Like I say, a police officer can't defend his own life to the detriment of others. Especially when the child wasn't even pointing his gun at the officer; unless it somehow can be demonstrated that he intended to shoot from his pocket.

I see. I follow your reasoning, but I'm not sure GM does. Not sure how to rephrase it, though.

It's a sight to behold when he/she does. The point is, the police officer was unrealistic about his assessment of the situation; most people don't open fire with the gun still in the pocket, and somehow he assumed that the child is extracting the gun in order that he might shoot the officer. Such an assumption is unreasonable, and his perception is definitely faulty.

[Gun Manufacturers]

My main issue here is that the right to self defense seems to trump the value of a person's life.

Those officers got themselves in a situation where they had to open fire. They acted hastily and that got a child shot.

I would prefer that police officers remain calm and don't drive into a situation where there might be an armed suspect to a distance of several feet. That's just putting yourself in a more dangerous situation than you should.

The police pulled up between the suspect and the sidewalk/street. It was probably to protect any bystanders in case Tamir had a real firearm.

[Themiclesia]

My main issue here is that the right to self defense seems to trump the value of a person's life.

Those officers got themselves in a situation where they had to open fire. They acted hastily and that got a child shot.

I would prefer that police officers remain calm and don't drive into a situation where there might be an armed suspect to a distance of several feet. That's just putting yourself in a more dangerous situation than you should.

The police pulled up between the suspect and the sidewalk/street. It was probably to protect any bystanders in case Tamir had a real firearm.

If the mere possession of a gun constitutes a threat to the public, then should not all police officers appear unarmed? After all, civilians have the right to self-defence as well.

[Gun Manufacturers]

No, I wouldn't have been certain, THAT'S MY POINT. It looked real enough that anybody in that situation would have had to assume that the gun was a real firearm. And when Tamir Rice reached for it, it would have been reasonable for anyone to assume that their life was in mortal danger, and they would have had justification to defend themselves.

Is this an issue of the proper performance of professional duty, or an issue of self-defence?

Like I say, a police officer can't defend his own life to the detriment of others. Especially when the child wasn't even pointing his gun at the officer; unless it somehow can be demonstrated that he intended to shoot from his pocket.

The above statement is absolutely wrong, as everyone has the right to defend themselves. Also, drawing a gun can be done extremely quickly.

[Esternial]

My main issue here is that the right to self defense seems to trump the value of a person's life.

Those officers got themselves in a situation where they had to open fire. They acted hastily and that got a child shot.

I would prefer that police officers remain calm and don't drive into a situation where there might be an armed suspect to a distance of several feet. That's just putting yourself in a more dangerous situation than you should.

The police pulled up between the suspect and the sidewalk/street. It was probably to protect any bystanders in case Tamir had a real firearm.

That's conjecture. My observations are based on what I saw in the video. The distance between them and the suspect was too close. They put themselves in needless danger and may have acted accordingly and in self defense, but the reason they had to resort to such actions ultimately comes down to their own mistake.

[Themiclesia]

Is this an issue of the proper performance of professional duty, or an issue of self-defence?

Like I say, a police officer can't defend his own life to the detriment of others. Especially when the child wasn't even pointing his gun at the officer; unless it somehow can be demonstrated that he intended to shoot from his pocket.

The above statement is absolutely wrong, as everyone has the right to defend themselves. Also, drawing a gun can be done extremely quickly.

But he hasn't drawn. Like I say, there is absolutely no certainty that, even if he draws, he will shoot.

[Gun Manufacturers]

The police pulled up between the suspect and the sidewalk/street. It was probably to protect any bystanders in case Tamir had a real firearm.

If the mere possession of a gun constitutes a threat to the public, then should not all police officers appear unarmed? After all, civilians have the right to self-defence as well.

Police officers don't make it a habit to brandish their firearms at random passers-by, like Tamir Rice had been doing when the police were called on him. That was the threat to the public, so when the police pulled up and Tamir appeared to reach for the gun, it appeared to be a continuation of the threat.

[Themiclesia]

If the mere possession of a gun constitutes a threat to the public, then should not all police officers appear unarmed? After all, civilians have the right to self-defence as well.

Police officers don't make it a habit to brandish their firearms at random passers-by, like Tamir Rice had been doing when the police were called on him. That was the threat to the public, so when the police pulled up and Tamir appeared to reach for the gun, it appeared to be a continuation of the threat.

There appeared to be a threat to the public, but there was no threat to the public.

[Esternial]

If the mere possession of a gun constitutes a threat to the public, then should not all police officers appear unarmed? After all, civilians have the right to self-defence as well.

Police officers don't make it a habit to brandish their firearms at random passers-by, like Tamir Rice had been doing when the police were called on him. That was the threat to the public, so when the police pulled up and Tamir appeared to reach for the gun, it appeared to be a continuation of the threat.

They made a judgement call based on a prediction, being that he was in fact a danger, and it turned out to be wrong. Don't see how they shouldn't be responsible for that.

[Gun Manufacturers]

The police pulled up between the suspect and the sidewalk/street. It was probably to protect any bystanders in case Tamir had a real firearm.

That's conjecture. My observations are based on what I saw in the video. The distance between them and the suspect was too close. They put themselves in needless danger and may have acted accordingly and in self defense, but the reason they had to resort to such actions ultimately comes down to their own mistake.

I did mispeak. I meant to say "possibly", not "probably".

[Esternial]

That's conjecture. My observations are based on what I saw in the video. The distance between them and the suspect was too close. They put themselves in needless danger and may have acted accordingly and in self defense, but the reason they had to resort to such actions ultimately comes down to their own mistake.

I did mispeak. I meant to say "possibly", not "probably".

Still basing your argument on conjecture.

[Gun Manufacturers]

The above statement is absolutely wrong, as everyone has the right to defend themselves. Also, drawing a gun can be done extremely quickly.

But he hasn't drawn. Like I say, there is absolutely no certainty that, even if he draws, he will shoot.

It's reasonable to assume that, if a person draws (or attempts to draw) a gun on a police officer, that they are in danger of being shot at. Thus, they are allowed to defend themselves.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Police officers don't make it a habit to brandish their firearms at random passers-by, like Tamir Rice had been doing when the police were called on him. That was the threat to the public, so when the police pulled up and Tamir appeared to reach for the gun, it appeared to be a continuation of the threat.

There appeared to be a threat to the public, but there was no threat to the public.

And the benefit of hindsight is, it's perfect. It was reasonable for the police officers to think that they were in danger, though.

[Esternial]

But he hasn't drawn. Like I say, there is absolutely no certainty that, even if he draws, he will shoot.

It's reasonable to assume that, if a person draws (or attempts to draw) a gun on a police officer, that they are in danger of being shot at. Thus, they are allowed to defend themselves.

There are other options, but the impression I get is that, when people have guns, they prefer it as the quick and easy option.

Which is one of the reason I'm against American gun laws. Were people's mentalities any different, my position might be, too.

[Gun Manufacturers]

I did mispeak. I meant to say "possibly", not "probably".

Still basing your argument on conjecture.

Well, since I can't see what's not on the camera, and I can see that they DID pull between Tamir Rice and the sidewalk and street, it's not an unreasonable to assume that could have been why they pulled up where they did.

[Vetalia]

I don't know if anyone else here is from the Cleveland area but this is a true tragedy for many of us living here; if you watch the footage shot from the park, the cops drive like crazy within two feet of Tamir across the grass into the park and the officer shoots him as soon as he gets out of the car. This was a flagrant violation of procedure at best; had a white kid been walking around with a "weapon" like that, he'd maybe be warned at best or more likely ignored.

This response was completely irresponsible and yet an other mark of shame for the Cleveland PD, especially considering the guy who shot him was about to be released (fired) from the Independence PD due to serious emotional and mental health issues but somehow managed to get hired by Cleveland because they never checked on his previous work with Independence. Call me crazy, but a guy who has an emotional breakdown on the shooting range shouldn't be a police officer. He wanted "more action", and he got it, with the death of an innocent kid on his record.

The stories of brutality from the Cleveland PD are too numerous and too unacceptable to allow to continue further, and it shocks me that nothing has been done sooner. DWB* checks are strictly enforced near the downtown pretty areas as well as the suburbs, they abuse "probable cause" as much as is humanly possible to bring people in on traffic warrants or marijuana drug offenses because it means cash for the departments; find 101 grams of marijuana in the car, boom, trafficking in drugs and civil asset forfeiture for any cash in the car along with massive fines.

*DWB = Driving While Black

[Nuwe Suid Afrika]

Does this man need to be indited? Yes. Does he need to be jailed? No.

What he saw was what appeared to be approximately a 20 year old man, after receiving reports of some-one walking around pointing a gun at things in their local park. After he stepped out of his car, before he had an opportunity to speak, the boy reached for the gun in his waist-band. The orange tip was not showing, and air-soft guns can be manufactured to look realistic now. The officer had two choices to make in a matter of a second. "Do I wait and take the possibility of getting shot, or do I shoot him?". He took the logical choice and shot first.

I support the police officers in this nation. Cops go through all kinds of training and background checks. There is not a crusade against blacks, 12-year olds, or anyone else in this nation. There is obviously a reason why this happened, and I look forward to hearing about it.

The cop failed his psychiatric test prior to this event and had breakdowns while shooting at a firing range ^{[citation needed]}.

Anyone who says that this is a racial thing clearly hasn't read the facts and is jumping on the 'hands up don't shoot/I cant breathe' band-wagon.

[Esternial]

Still basing your argument on conjecture.

Well, since I can't see what's not on the camera, and I can see that they DID pull between Tamir Rice and the sidewalk and street, it's not an unreasonable to assume that could have been why they pulled up where they did.

If it was, it was poorly executed. The distance between them and the suspect is simply too small, surely you must agree with me on at least this?

[Gun Manufacturers]

Well, since I can't see what's not on the camera, and I can see that they DID pull between Tamir Rice and the sidewalk and street, it's not an unreasonable to assume that could have been why they pulled up where they did.

If it was, it was poorly executed. The distance between them and the suspect is simply too small, surely you must agree with me on at least this?

I personally would have like to put more distance between the car and Tamir.