Rosetta mission scientist Dr Matt Taylor persecuted by SJWs

[Ifreann]

I don't see how. People are talking about Dr. Taylor's shirt because they think it's indicative of a wider problem in the STEM fields, not because he's being judged on how he looks and not what he accomplishes.

The problem being that STEM scientists lack fashion sense so women won't associate with them?

No.

[Ostroeuropa]

The problem being that STEM scientists lack fashion sense so women won't associate with them?

No.

Then what is it?
The problem that males in STEM feel ok with expressing themselves?
There is no fucking problem. That's the point.
It's a t-shirt, nothing more.
The reason women don't go into STEM so much is they are in all the other fields. A majority in most of them.

Eating an entire fucking buffet then crying and bawling about how someone had a whole sandwich to themselves makes women look like utter freaks. Again, something feminists have done to women. Not men. Feminists, by pretending to represent women.
So what if women don't go into STEM?
They go everywhere else, in large numbers. Larger than the males.
So whats the problem here?
That there are still males in employment? I just don't get this warped worldview. It's completely fucking toxic.

[Ifreann]

No.

Then what is it?

I'm a feminist, and this is just a bit ridiculous. I mean, really? It's a shirt. And I don't really see what's offensive about it.

You say that sexism isn’t a problem? You say that “it’s just a shirt?” Look at how “just a shirt” has blown up into yet another aggressive campaign against those who call for an inclusive environment for all. We won’t back down. But take it as a teaching moment… these things exist and go on regularly and disrupt the lives and work of women in science careers.

And yes, on another level, it’s just a shirt and just a guy that, I believe, didn’t really intend any harm. In the grand cosmic scheme, WE PUT A ROBOT ON A COMET. However, it’s an indicator of a pervasive and destructive problem throughout the workforce, particularly in science and tech careers.

We’re turning the tide and we won’t stay quiet about it anymore. And that hurts sometimes. But we won’t go backwards.

Nicole Gugliucci, Ph.D astronomer

But the criticism was never just about just one shirt, and what has been happening since Matt Taylor’s apology underlines that this is not a problem that starts and ends with Matt Taylor or with one bad wardrobe choice for the professional task at hand.

Despite Matt Taylor’s apology, legions of people have been asserting that he should not have apologized. They have been insisting that people objecting to his wearing that shirt while representing Rosetta and acting as an ambassador for science were wrong to voice their objections, wrong even to be affected by the shirt.

If only we could not be affected by things simply by choosing not to be affected by them. But that’s not how symbols work.

A critique of this wardrobe choice as one small piece of a scientific culture that makes it harder for women to participate fully brought forth throngs of people (including scientists) responding with a torrent of hostility and, in some cases, threats of harm. This response conveys that women are welcome in science, or science journalism, or the audience for landing a spacecraft on a comet, only as long as they shut up about any of the barriers they might encounter, while men in science should never, ever be made uncomfortable about choices they’ve made that might contribute (even unintentionally) to throwing up such barriers.

That is not a great strategy for demonstrating that science is welcoming to all.

Janet D. Stemwedel, Associate Professor of Philosophy with a background as a physical chemist

If you think this isn’t a big deal, well, by itself, it’s not a huge one. But it’s not by itself, is it? This event didn’t happen in a vacuum. It comes when there is still a tremendously leaky pipeline for women from undergraduate science classes to professional scientist. It comes when having a female name on a paper makes it less likely to get published, and cited less. It comes when there is still not even close to parity in hiring and retaining women in the sciences.

So yeah, it’s just a shirt.

And it’s just an ad.

It’s just a saying.

It’s just a TV show.

It’s just the Internet.

Yes, but you almost make as much as a man does.

It’s just a catcall.

It’s a compliment!

It’s just that boys will be boys.

It’s just that she’s a slut.

It’s just that your dress is too short.

It’s just that we want to know what you were wearing at the time, ma’am.

It’s just it’s just it’s just.

It’s just a death by a thousand cuts. No one cut does the deed. In the end, they all do.

Phil Plait, astronomer

If it were truly one shirt – one isolated incident in women’s decades long careers – I could see their point. A woman leaving science over one shirt might earn her the fragile flower label. But, it’s never just one shirt.

[...]

So, the issue isn’t that it’s one shirt. It’s that as a woman scientist, I see the equivalent of that shirt numerous times a day. I would like to go even a single day without having to hear about some guy’s cock or balls or how frequently he thinks about fucking or who he wants to fuck or anything related to reproduction. And, Lord, if it were only one guy, but it’s not…

When I was a graduate student, one of my colleagues had pictures of mostly nude pinup girls over his desk. When I was a postdoc, I had to convince a group of scientists I was traveling with that having our social dinner at a restaurant with strippers might not be appropriate.

I may have stuck it out, but I don’t blame women who feel that all of the sex references make them feel too uncomfortable to interact with these men. The problem then rears its ugly head when, because you’ve avoided these men for all of their talk about their johnsons and where they’d like to stick them, that you start missing opportunities.

The worst part about this behavior is that it’s so easily forgiven as an inherent character trait. Scientists are quirky and lack social skills and common sense. Still, I’ve never seen a woman make a lewd reference while giving a professional talk.

No, it’s not that men scientists are inherently idiosyncratic and can’t be expected to act professionally for eight hours of their day, it’s that science operates with a power structure in which men are rarely taken to task for their tasteless behavior.

http://isisthescientist.com/2014/11/17/sometimes-a-shirt-is-more-than-just-a-shirt/

Now, ok, I understand that many of us become scientists because we’re unconventional, because we’re individuals, because we’re quirky. Sure, some of us dress funny. I know lots of scientists, great scientists, who are pretty fond of Hawaiian shirts. But, really, seriously, did it not occur to Matt Taylor for maybe just a nanosecond, that appearing on camera, as a scientist, at a defining moment in the history of space exploration, in a shirt festooned with sprawling half-naked women (and a couple o’ guns) might, I dunno, send the wrong goddamn message?!?!

Here’s the thing. I’m a 50-something, white, male scientist. This means that, in the traditional structure of science and academia, I’ve had it pretty easy. Harder than some, but easier than most. But I have to say, from my position as a 50-something, white, male scientist, that it’s about time science had a lot more people who do not look like me. We need diversity, and we need it badly. We need to make science and research and academia a fair and welcoming place for people who are not white, straight, males. I’m not entirely sure how we’re going to get there. But there are two things I do know for certain:

1. We are only going to get there if senior, white dudes like me either step up and say “yes, let’s change things” and then work to make that change happen, or just shut up and get out of the way.

2. We are not going to get there if some of our visible scientists use their brief moments in the spotlight to convey a message (unintentional or not!) that females are better suited to being decorations than to being colleagues.

Science took a huge step forward today, and, thanks to one dumb fashion choice, one step back.

Terry Wheeler, Professor of entomology

Now - we have a huge problem getting women and girls into STEM fields. And spend lots of energy talking about how women aren't in science and should be (note: a Google search will yield many articles, that is just a recent one!).

And yet, here is a male scientist at a predominantly male science press conference from a male-dominated field - that is going to be broadcast to schools around the world - wearing a shirt objectifying women.

So, obviously the internet exploded. I, and many other people tweeted about it and were very angry, and later Matt changed his shirt (thank goodness before the most watched part of the landing).
But this begs the question, why did Matt choose to wear the shirt? Or rather, did he think about the message it would send? Did he care? Did anyone at the press conference even look at the shirt?

I hope that in the coming days we will hear more from Matt and/or ESA, but I feel like now I need to redouble my efforts to remind young women interested in science that yes, your mind is important. That yes, you are capable of being taken seriously in STEM fields. That yes, we do want you here (come and join me). And that no, your body isn't what defines you.

Renée Hložek, cosmologist

I don't know, man, it might be that some people feel it goes beyond the shirt itself...

[Ostroeuropa]

So basically some people whining about the sandwich.
Not helping matters ifreann. Those tubby fuckers. It's kind of endearing in a fucked up way to watch people be so utterly terrible and scumbagish.

Someone wearing a t-shirt isn't a "barrier" for women.
It's a male expressing himself. If that offends women, then oh well.
YOUR CULTURE OFFENDS ME NATIVE.
PUT ON SOME FUCKING CLOTHES.

What?!
Sexual imagery!?
You MUST be repressed, like US!
Here is your bible and european clothing.
Feminization of male space leading to the decline of males. It's just a new type of imperialist behaviour.
Instead of dropping the whole "Lets be assholes to eachother" thing, feminism is just a new incarnation of the same shit.

[Ifreann]

So basically some people whining about the sandwich.

No. But if you going to prefer to have yet another furious little rant about how you imagine things to be instead of dealing with the real world then I suppose I can't stop you. Have fun.

[Ostroeuropa]

So basically some people whining about the sandwich.

No. But if you going to prefer to have yet another furious little rant about how you imagine things to be instead of dealing with the real world then I suppose I can't stop you. Have fun.

I'm not furious. I'm laughing. I've been laughing for a while at you people. It's stunning to watch people act this way. I think you think i'm angry because I swear, but I just enjoy swearing.

[Central Slavia]

Who says that about women? Nobody.
It's never like that. It's more that there is an overriding focus on the dress sense to the exclusion of actual achievements.
Same thing going on here.

I don't see how. People are talking about Dr. Taylor's shirt because they think it's indicative of a wider problem in the STEM fields, not because he's being judged on how he looks and not what he accomplishes.

Right, so him dressing how he wants for an informal occassion is indicative of a problem.
Glorious.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't see how. People are talking about Dr. Taylor's shirt because they think it's indicative of a wider problem in the STEM fields, not because he's being judged on how he looks and not what he accomplishes.

Right, so him dressing how he wants for an informal occassion is indicative of a problem.
Glorious.

And all the people saying he was dressed inappropriately at work.
Ok.
So women will only wear business suits and such now in business and all that and it's fine to get pissy at them if they refuse, right?
It couldn't be that we're just demanding all males have no sense of identity or individuality. That'd imply society was sexist against males.

[Alyakia]

Right, so him dressing how he wants for an informal occassion is indicative of a problem.
Glorious.

And all the people saying he was dressed inappropriately at work.
Ok.
So women will only wear business suits and such now in business and all that and it's fine to get pissy at them if they refuse, right?
It couldn't be that we're just demanding all males have no sense of identity or individuality. That'd imply society was sexist against males.

oh christ all the women were dressed in ESA uniforms for business looking suits yes

[Central Slavia]

Right, so him dressing how he wants for an informal occassion is indicative of a problem.
Glorious.

And all the people saying he was dressed inappropriately at work.
Ok.
So women will only wear business suits and such now in business and all that and it's fine to get pissy at them if they refuse, right?
It couldn't be that we're just demanding all males have no sense of identity or individuality. That'd imply society was sexist against males.

I quite frankly don't understand what you're trying to say here, or which side do you support.

[Ostroeuropa]

And all the people saying he was dressed inappropriately at work.
Ok.
So women will only wear business suits and such now in business and all that and it's fine to get pissy at them if they refuse, right?
It couldn't be that we're just demanding all males have no sense of identity or individuality. That'd imply society was sexist against males.

I quite frankly don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Basically, some people are saying the shirt is fine, but he shouldn't have worn such a shirt at work because he is a professional.
He should be dressed professionally.

Akin to telling women how to dress and saying that the way they are currently doing it is unacceptable if they want to be taken seriously in business.

They aren't noticing that this has the actual effect of getting males to censor their expression, but not females.

[Alyakia]

I quite frankly don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Basically, some people are saying the shirt is fine, but he shouldn't have worn such a shirt at work because he is a professional.
He should be dressed professionally.

Akin to telling women how to dress and saying that the way they are currently doing it is unacceptable if they want to be taken seriously in business.

And all the people saying he was dressed inappropriately at work.
Ok.
So women will only wear business suits and such now in business and all that and it's fine to get pissy at them if they refuse, right?
It couldn't be that we're just demanding all males have no sense of identity or individuality. That'd imply society was sexist against males.

oh christ all the women were dressed in ESA uniforms for business looking suits yes

[Ostroeuropa]

Basically, some people are saying the shirt is fine, but he shouldn't have worn such a shirt at work because he is a professional.
He should be dressed professionally.

Akin to telling women how to dress and saying that the way they are currently doing it is unacceptable if they want to be taken seriously in business.

oh christ all the women were dressed in ESA uniforms for business looking suits yes

Good for them. So what though.
If someone wanted to do otherwise, that's entirely their choice. They shouldn't be chewed out for it.
You aren't helping with the whole "Women colonizing male space" narrative by the way.
"Why yes, all the women DO conform to this standard they are forcing on the natives. Here is your bible and european clothing, your society is barbaric."

[Alyakia]

Good for them. So what though.
If someone wanted to do otherwise, that's entirely their choice. They shouldn't be chewed out for it.
You aren't helping with the whole "Women colonizing male space" narrative by the way.

are you trying to argue against the existence of dress codes

[Ostroeuropa]

Good for them. So what though.
If someone wanted to do otherwise, that's entirely their choice. They shouldn't be chewed out for it.
You aren't helping with the whole "Women colonizing male space" narrative by the way.

are you trying to argue against the existence of dress codes

Ofcourse. Unless there are safety reasons (Long hair untied, hanging threads banned, because machinery can eat you if it gets caught.), there is no rationale that is acceptable.

[Alyakia]

it is entirely my choice to wear assless chaps at a press conference for an intergovernmental agency said hellene bachmier, 48, shorlty before being given a verbal warning and told to try again

[Ostroeuropa]

it is entirely my choice to wear assless chaps at a press conference for an intergovernmental agency said hellene bachmier, 48, shorlty before being given a verbal warning and told to try again

It should be, yes. What's the problem?
People not conforming?
Boo hoo. Get over it. People can express themselves if they want to.

All you know about someone by the fact they wear assless chaps is that they like wearing assless chaps. That's it. They could still be entirely professional and have a strong work-ethic.
Some of the most friendly and professional people I know are total fashion nightmares, but oh well, it's THEIR fashion and MY nightmare.
I wouldn't have the gall to call them on it, because what would I be saying exactly?

"I wouldn't wear that."
"I'm not asking you to."
"Yeh, but you HAVE to be exactly like me! Or else my FEELZ!!!!!!"

[Alyakia]

it is entirely my choice to wear assless chaps at a press conference for an intergovernmental agency said hellene bachmier, 48, shorlty before being given a verbal warning and told to try again

It should be, yes. What's the problem?
People not conforming?
Boo hoo. Get over it. People can express themselves if they want to.

All you know about someone by the fact they wear assless chaps is that they like wearing assless chaps. That's it. They could still be entirely professional and have a strong work-ethic.

you know what. yes. yes it is. it makes people uncomfortable and it provides an unprofessional image to people. and, during a press conference, it is literally your job to avoid doing that. what do we do with people who refuse to do their jobs?

[Ostroeuropa]

It should be, yes. What's the problem?
People not conforming?
Boo hoo. Get over it. People can express themselves if they want to.

All you know about someone by the fact they wear assless chaps is that they like wearing assless chaps. That's it. They could still be entirely professional and have a strong work-ethic.

you know what. yes. yes it is. it makes people uncomfortable and it provides an unprofessional image to people. and, during a press conference, it is literally your job to avoid doing that. what do we do with people who refuse to do their jobs?

I don't care if people hurt their own feelings with their own opinions on other peoples fashion. In fact it makes me despise those people, because they are acting like bigots. We shouldn't tolerate bigotry or pander to it. His job at a press conference is to confer information. He did that.
It's not a fucking gossip magazine.

[Central Slavia]

it is entirely my choice to wear assless chaps at a press conference for an intergovernmental agency said hellene bachmier, 48, shorlty before being given a verbal warning and told to try again

You should have gone further and made her nude in public. Your point wouldn't get any sillier.

He wasn't wearing anything indecent. The whole thing is that people are projecting an ideologic message onto what he wore and whining at him for that.

[Ifreann]

I don't see how. People are talking about Dr. Taylor's shirt because they think it's indicative of a wider problem in the STEM fields, not because he's being judged on how he looks and not what he accomplishes.

Right, so him dressing how he wants for an informal occassion is indicative of a problem.
Glorious.

And what part of that is meant to sound absurd to us?

---

it is entirely my choice to wear assless chaps at a press conference for an intergovernmental agency said hellene bachmier, 48, shorlty before being given a verbal warning and told to try again

Isn't is weird that we call them assless chaps? Like, aren't chaps necessarily assless? We don't say "sleeveless tank top".

[Central Slavia]

It should be, yes. What's the problem?
People not conforming?
Boo hoo. Get over it. People can express themselves if they want to.

All you know about someone by the fact they wear assless chaps is that they like wearing assless chaps. That's it. They could still be entirely professional and have a strong work-ethic.

you know what. yes. yes it is. it makes people uncomfortable and it provides an unprofessional image to people. and, during a press conference, it is literally your job to avoid doing that. what do we do with people who refuse to do their jobs?

Yeah, right, because it was such a formal occassion, which is why he spent half the time showing his cool tattoos to the camera.

[Alyakia]

you know what. yes. yes it is. it makes people uncomfortable and it provides an unprofessional image to people. and, during a press conference, it is literally your job to avoid doing that. what do we do with people who refuse to do their jobs?

I don't care if people hurt their own feelings with their own opinions on other peoples fashion.
His job at a press conference is to confer information. He did that.
It's not a fucking gossip magazine.

you can do whatever the hell you want just don't expect to get and keep a job broadcasting information to the world doing it

[Alyakia]

it is entirely my choice to wear assless chaps at a press conference for an intergovernmental agency said hellene bachmier, 48, shorlty before being given a verbal warning and told to try again

You should have gone further and made her nude in public. Your point wouldn't get any sillier.

He wasn't wearing anything indecent. The whole thing is that people are projecting an ideologic message onto what he wore and whining at him for that.

did you miss the part where ostroeuropa is now literally arguing that assless chaps would have been fine? please pay attention.

[Central Slavia]

I don't care if people hurt their own feelings with their own opinions on other peoples fashion.
His job at a press conference is to confer information. He did that.
It's not a fucking gossip magazine.

you can do whatever the hell you want just don't expect to get and keep a job broadcasting information to the world doing it

Which is not at all what the dude's job is.