In Cold War, U.S. Spy Agencies Used 1,000 Nazis

[United Marxist Nations]

It's a specific brand of imperialism specific for not being it.

Tell that to the East Germans in 1952, the Hungarians in 1956, or the Czechoslovakians in 1968.

Just throw Hoxha at him.

[FutureAmerica]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[Central Slavia]

It's a specific brand of imperialism specific for not being it.

Tell that to the East Germans in 1952, the Hungarians in 1956, or the Czechoslovakians in 1968.

*Tells to himself*
You realize what Breznev did in 1968 was significantly different from what Chruscov (correctly) did in 1956?
It's the difference between punching in the jaw someone who threatened you with a knife, and someone who politely asked whether the chair next to you is free.

[FutureAmerica]

Former Nazis were recruited because they were less likely to be turned by the Soviets. They hated communists.

[Blakullar]

Tell that to the East Germans in 1952, the Hungarians in 1956, or the Czechoslovakians in 1968.

*Tells to himself*
You realize what Breznev did in 1968 was significantly different from what Chruscov (correctly) did in 1956?
It's the difference between punching in the jaw someone who threatened you with a knife, and someone who politely asked whether the chair next to you is free.

Not really. Both Hungary and Czechoslovakia were invaded because the Soviets feared that their turning to western ideas would threaten the stability of the Soviet Bloc. It's just that Brezhnev did so only under pressure from WarPac (in particular Poland and East Germany), and that the Prague Spring was somewhat less bloody than Khrushchev's intervention in '56.

[Trotskylvania]

Tell that to the East Germans in 1952, the Hungarians in 1956, or the Czechoslovakians in 1968.

*Tells to himself*
You realize what Breznev did in 1968 was significantly different from what Chruscov (correctly) did in 1956?
It's the difference between punching in the jaw someone who threatened you with a knife, and someone who politely asked whether the chair next to you is free.

The commonality in all three instances was that East Block communists engaged in mass political action to make good on the Leninist promise. In Hungary especially, they chanted "All power to the soviets" as they took to the streets against the nomenklatura regime that oppressed and exploited the workers, and wanted to implement a soviet republic run as a free association of the producers. For their efforts, the Soviets sent in the tanks, and forced them back into exploitative relations for the benefit of Moscow's geopolitical aims.

They did this earlier in East Germany when the East German workers went on strike demanding a free soviet republic. They did this again during the Prague spring whin the Czechoslovaks had the audacity to try to build socialism with freedom of speech and soviet democracy.

[Our Governator]

Is this really news? We've known this for years.

[Central Slavia]

*Tells to himself*
You realize what Breznev did in 1968 was significantly different from what Chruscov (correctly) did in 1956?
It's the difference between punching in the jaw someone who threatened you with a knife, and someone who politely asked whether the chair next to you is free.

Not really. Both Hungary and Czechoslovakia were invaded because the Soviets feared that their turning to western ideas would threaten the stability of the Soviet Bloc. It's just that Brezhnev did so only under pressure from WarPac (in particular Poland and East Germany), and that the Prague Spring was somewhat less bloody than Khrushchev's intervention in '56.

I call bullshit.
In Hungary, you had open contrarevolution, ÁVH members and communist party members hanging from candelabras, and an increasingly desperate fight between the hardcore communists and the insurgents whipped up by promises of support by the likes of Voice of America and Radio Free Europe, with people being swept into the mess. Chruscov came, slapped both sides and instituted order.

In Czechoslovakia, you had a government which was explicitly marxist-leninist, merely choosing to exercise, well, common sense in implementing its policies and go along with popular support - so called "socialism with a human face". There was actually a spike in communist party membership during the time, and even people who dislike the former regime and lived through this will mostly praise Dubcek, Svoboda and the rest of the '68ers.
However, the hardline wing of the party disliked this, and used the fact that the Soviets long wanted to host a military base in Czechoslovakia, and neither Novotny nor Dubcek would have any of it, and asked Breznev to intervene, citing bullshit contra-revolution claims to make their case.
So, in came the tanks.

[Blakullar]

Not really. Both Hungary and Czechoslovakia were invaded because the Soviets feared that their turning to western ideas would threaten the stability of the Soviet Bloc. It's just that Brezhnev did so only under pressure from WarPac (in particular Poland and East Germany), and that the Prague Spring was somewhat less bloody than Khrushchev's intervention in '56.

I call bullshit.
In Hungary, you had open contrarevolution, ÁVH members and communist party members hanging from candelabras, and an increasingly desperate fight between the hardcore communists and the insurgents whipped up by promises of support by the likes of Voice of America and Radio Free Europe, with people being swept into the mess. Chruscov came, slapped both sides and instituted order.

This tells a different tale, and it involves a little more than "slapping both sides".

[Central Slavia]

I call bullshit.
In Hungary, you had open contrarevolution, ÁVH members and communist party members hanging from candelabras, and an increasingly desperate fight between the hardcore communists and the insurgents whipped up by promises of support by the likes of Voice of America and Radio Free Europe, with people being swept into the mess. Chruscov came, slapped both sides and instituted order.

This tells a different tale, and it involves a little more than "slapping both sides".

Did you notice Matyas Rakosi being deposed and spending the rest of his life in exile in the USSR? (He returned near the end, I htink)

[Edward Scissorhands]

Okay, and?

[Trotskylvania]

Not really. Both Hungary and Czechoslovakia were invaded because the Soviets feared that their turning to western ideas would threaten the stability of the Soviet Bloc. It's just that Brezhnev did so only under pressure from WarPac (in particular Poland and East Germany), and that the Prague Spring was somewhat less bloody than Khrushchev's intervention in '56.

I call bullshit.
In Hungary, you had open contrarevolution, ÁVH members and communist party members hanging from candelabras, and an increasingly desperate fight between the hardcore communists and the insurgents whipped up by promises of support by the likes of Voice of America and Radio Free Europe, with people being swept into the mess. Chruscov came, slapped both sides and instituted order.

False: see UN General Assembly Special Committee on the Problem of Hungary (1957), pp. 22-3.

Here, the first days of the uprising saw
a transfer of power from the Communist bureaucracy to the new Revolutionary and Workers’
Councils. In most cases, these Councils took over without opposition, although some incidents
were reported during this process. These Councils represented a spontaneous reaction against
the dictatorial methods of the régime. The Revolutionary Councils took over the various
responsibilities of local government. There were also Revolutionary Councils or Committees in
the Army, in Government departments and in professional groups and centres of activity such
as the radio and the Hungarian Telegraph Agency. Members of the Councils were usually
chosen at a meeting of those concerned. They were intended to prepare for the setting up of a
genuinely democratic system of government. The Councils also put forward various political
and economic demands, calling for the withdrawal of Soviet troops, free and secret elections,
complete freedom of expression and the abolition of the one-party system. The most influential
of these bodies was probably the Transdanubian National Council, which represented the
people of Western Hungary. Using the Free Radio Station at Győr, this Council demanded that
Hungary should renounce the Warsaw Treaty and proclaim her neutrality. Should its demands
not be accepted, it proposed to set up an independent Government.
The Workers’ Councils were set up in a variety of centres of work, such as factories,
mines, industrial undertakings and so on. They also put forward political demands and wielded
considerable influence. However, their principal purpose was to secure for the workers a real
share in the management of enterprises and to arrange for the setting up of machinery to
protect their interests. Unpopular measures, such as that of establishing “norms” of production
for each worker, were abolished. The emergence of Revolutionary and Workers’ Councils
throughout Hungary was one of the most characteristic features of the uprising. It represented
the first practical step to restore order and to reorganize the Hungarian economy on a socialist
basis, but without rigid Party control or the apparatus of terror.

[Blakullar]

This tells a different tale, and it involves a little more than "slapping both sides".

Did you notice Matyas Rakosi being deposed and spending the rest of his life in exile in the USSR? (He returned near the end, I htink)

I never said that there wasn't a violent revolution in Hungary. What I'm trying to illustrate is that the Soviets dealt with both events with equally heavy-handed tactics, with them doing so in Hungary having a much bloodier aftermath than in Czechoslovakia.

[Oaledonia]

I fail to see how this is any different then the USSR's similar practice.

[Central Slavia]

I call bullshit.
In Hungary, you had open contrarevolution, ÁVH members and communist party members hanging from candelabras, and an increasingly desperate fight between the hardcore communists and the insurgents whipped up by promises of support by the likes of Voice of America and Radio Free Europe, with people being swept into the mess. Chruscov came, slapped both sides and instituted order.

False: see UN General Assembly Special Committee on the Problem of Hungary (1957), pp. 22-3.

Here, the first days of the uprising saw
a transfer of power from the Communist bureaucracy to the new Revolutionary and Workers’
Councils. In most cases, these Councils took over without opposition, although some incidents
were reported during this process. These Councils represented a spontaneous reaction against
the dictatorial methods of the régime. The Revolutionary Councils took over the various
responsibilities of local government. There were also Revolutionary Councils or Committees in
the Army, in Government departments and in professional groups and centres of activity such
as the radio and the Hungarian Telegraph Agency. Members of the Councils were usually
chosen at a meeting of those concerned. They were intended to prepare for the setting up of a
genuinely democratic system of government. The Councils also put forward various political
and economic demands, calling for the withdrawal of Soviet troops, free and secret elections,
complete freedom of expression and the abolition of the one-party system. The most influential
of these bodies was probably the Transdanubian National Council, which represented the
people of Western Hungary. Using the Free Radio Station at Győr, this Council demanded that
Hungary should renounce the Warsaw Treaty and proclaim her neutrality. Should its demands
not be accepted, it proposed to set up an independent Government.
The Workers’ Councils were set up in a variety of centres of work, such as factories,
mines, industrial undertakings and so on. They also put forward political demands and wielded
considerable influence. However, their principal purpose was to secure for the workers a real
share in the management of enterprises and to arrange for the setting up of machinery to
protect their interests. Unpopular measures, such as that of establishing “norms” of production
for each worker, were abolished. The emergence of Revolutionary and Workers’ Councils
throughout Hungary was one of the most characteristic features of the uprising. It represented
the first practical step to restore order and to reorganize the Hungarian economy on a socialist
basis, but without rigid Party control or the apparatus of terror.

And they did it in such a peaceful and appropriate way that no Soviet intervention was thought necessary for a second, save for tankie madmen.

Or not.
Honestly, I for a second don't believe that had the insurgency succeeded, Hungary wouldn't have joined NATO at the earliest opportunity.

[The New Sea Territory]

This isn't really something new. People have known for a long time that both the Soviet and American Empires employed Nazis to carry out dirty work.

[Trotskylvania]

False: see UN General Assembly Special Committee on the Problem of Hungary (1957), pp. 22-3.

Here, the first days of the uprising saw
a transfer of power from the Communist bureaucracy to the new Revolutionary and Workers’
Councils. In most cases, these Councils took over without opposition, although some incidents
were reported during this process. These Councils represented a spontaneous reaction against
the dictatorial methods of the régime. The Revolutionary Councils took over the various
responsibilities of local government. There were also Revolutionary Councils or Committees in
the Army, in Government departments and in professional groups and centres of activity such
as the radio and the Hungarian Telegraph Agency. Members of the Councils were usually
chosen at a meeting of those concerned. They were intended to prepare for the setting up of a
genuinely democratic system of government. The Councils also put forward various political
and economic demands, calling for the withdrawal of Soviet troops, free and secret elections,
complete freedom of expression and the abolition of the one-party system. The most influential
of these bodies was probably the Transdanubian National Council, which represented the
people of Western Hungary. Using the Free Radio Station at Győr, this Council demanded that
Hungary should renounce the Warsaw Treaty and proclaim her neutrality. Should its demands
not be accepted, it proposed to set up an independent Government.
The Workers’ Councils were set up in a variety of centres of work, such as factories,
mines, industrial undertakings and so on. They also put forward political demands and wielded
considerable influence. However, their principal purpose was to secure for the workers a real
share in the management of enterprises and to arrange for the setting up of machinery to
protect their interests. Unpopular measures, such as that of establishing “norms” of production
for each worker, were abolished. The emergence of Revolutionary and Workers’ Councils
throughout Hungary was one of the most characteristic features of the uprising. It represented
the first practical step to restore order and to reorganize the Hungarian economy on a socialist
basis, but without rigid Party control or the apparatus of terror.

And they did it in such a peaceful and appropriate way that no Soviet intervention was thought necessary for a second, save for tankie madmen.

Or not.
Honestly, I for a second don't believe that had the insurgency succeeded, Hungary wouldn't have joined NATO at the earliest opportunity.

Yes, casualties occurred from overthrowing a totalitarian regime. How about that...it's almost as if a gang of oppressors is hard to overthrow without violence.

[Central Slavia]

And they did it in such a peaceful and appropriate way that no Soviet intervention was thought necessary for a second, save for tankie madmen.

Or not.
Honestly, I for a second don't believe that had the insurgency succeeded, Hungary wouldn't have joined NATO at the earliest opportunity.

Yes, casualties occurred from overthrowing a totalitarian regime. How about that...it's almost as if a gang of oppressors is hard to overthrow without violence.

It does point to a significant difference between the goings on in Czechoslovakia and in Hungary. The first was an internal political process that they had no business butting into. The second, a violent contrarevolution.

[Lyttenburg]

May as well use a powerful and capable human resource while you can. All that talent and knowhow would've gone to waste.

Look at it this way: Jews were also persecuted in the USSR and this was one way of using fire to fight fire. Thus helping to defeat a nation with a track record of antisemitism itself. ...

Sources about thousands executed Jews in the USSR, please.

Yeah pretty much, the soviets had some former Nazis working for them as well though from what i remember they were more interested in the actual hardware. But i would be more surprised if they did not have some working for them.

Everyone hired ex-nazis after WW2. Of course, the FBI and CIA would as well.

If it's morally justified that everyone else did, it's fair game for them, too.

Again, sources, please.

And now to all those, who, by some reasons, chose not to read the article.

It is not about the German scientists like von Braun, working for the USA. It is about American intelligence agencies hiring former members of Nazi StateSec and war criminals. Not about scinetist - but about butchers with blood of thousands on their hands. Clear enough for you? You can understand that?

Good. Now, if it was not obvious in the OP I had to repeat the question: Was the USA justified to employ Nazi war criminals against the USSR? Why?

I also ask every single "whataboutist" to post links and sources confirming that USSR hired Nazi war criminals (of the same level as Eichmann) after the WW2.

[Costa Fierro]

Nothing new here, not like they performed blood rituals or anything.

Killing 60,000 Jews is considerably worse than blood rituals. Lytt's OP raises the question of whether it is justifiable for a government to protect well- known war criminals.

And considering there really weren't any well known war criminals protected by the US government (because they were all living in Argentina), I doubt that the OP's idea for this thread wasn't raising legitimate concerns but making a thread purely to make the US look bad.

Most of those who were employed by the Nazis or who were members of the Nazi party that later became employed by the Americans were scientists, especially those involved in the V-2 projects. The Soviets did the same as well, acquiring a large number of German scientists, aircraft and technology to built fighter jets and rockets.

Obviously the Nazis the Soviets employed were slightly better than those employed by the Americans if memory serves us correct.

[Bubblekirby]

What is your point Lyttenburg? That America has awful skeletons in its closet? Of course it does, every major world power in history does! Yes of course it was wrong to employ Nazi war criminals for intelligence. But that doesn't somehow make the Soviet Union or modern Russia morally superior to the US. For every atrocity in American history you bring up one can counter with a Russian atrocity.

[Lyttenburg]

What is your point Lyttenburg? That America has awful skeletons in its closet? Of course it does, every major world power in history does! Yes of course it was wrong to employ Nazi war criminals for intelligence. But that doesn't somehow make the Soviet Union or modern Russia morally superior to the US. For every atrocity in American history you bring up one can counter with a Russian atrocity.

Thank you for answering my question. It would be ideal, if in the process of doing that you (and others) managed to restrain themselves from the indignant "whataboutism".

[Geilinor]

The Soviets used Nazi scientists in their space program. Former Nazi scientists went to all the Allies.

[The balkens]

What is your point Lyttenburg? That America has awful skeletons in its closet? Of course it does, every major world power in history does! Yes of course it was wrong to employ Nazi war criminals for intelligence. But that doesn't somehow make the Soviet Union or modern Russia morally superior to the US. For every atrocity in American history you bring up one can counter with a Russian atrocity.

Thank you for answering my question. It would be ideal, if in the process of doing that you (and others) managed to restrain themselves from the indignant "whataboutism".

It's the cold war.

Whataboutism was a fucking driving point in the whole damn thing.

"what about Korea? what about china? what about Vietnam? what about Afghanistan? what about Angola? what about central america?"

[Costa Fierro]

Sources about thousands executed Jews in the USSR, please.

I believe the poster said persecution, not execution. There is a difference. Here's the dictionary definition of persecute. Here is execute.

As for persecution, anti-semitism was widespread in the Soviet Union, likely a hangover of pre-revolutionary times when the Tsars persecuted Jews.