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Pope Francis supports evolution, says God isn't a magician

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Atlanticatia
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Pope Francis supports evolution, says God isn't a magician

Postby Atlanticatia » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:15 am

In a move that could be aimed at healing a rift between science and religion, Pope Francis has said that evolution and the Big Bang are consistent with the notion of a creator. And according to the pontiff, believers should not view God as "a magician, with a magic wand."

Francis made the remarks at an assembly of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, billed as meeting to discuss "Evolving Concepts of Nature."

"When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so," Francis told the gathering, where he also dedicated a statue of his predecessor, Benedict XVI. God, Francis said, "created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfillment."

To be sure, the Catholic Church's views on the origins of the universe and life, unlike those of many Protestant sects, have for years been largely in line with the scientific consensus. The church has long leaned toward what some describe as "theistic evolution," i.e., a God supernaturally created the universe and life but allowed natural processes to work over billions of years.

In 1950, Pope Pius XII proclaimed that evolution was not at odds with Catholic teachings, and Pope John Paul II endorsed the view himself in 1996.

However, Pope Benedict hinted at accommodating "intelligent design," a form of creationism that has become popular in many religious circles in recent decades.

(As an aside, a recent Chapman University survey showed that more Americans believe in the lost civilization of Atlantis and that "UFOs are probably spaceships" than in evolution, and that as many people believed in Bigfoot as in the Big Bang.)

The Associated Press notes: "Francis has gone out of his way to embrace Benedict even as he steers the church on a vastly different course than that charted by the German theologian."

Francis' remarks are in keeping with a more open view he has taken to church matters and the intersection between the spiritual and secular worlds since becoming pope last year.

He has downplayed the importance of such hot-button issues as abortion, contraception and gay marriage, denounced the "cult of money," and even said that atheists can be redeemed.

But earlier this month, a group of bishops meeting at the Vatican showed that the church as a whole remains deeply divided on many of those issues.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... magic-wand


Well, the Pope has made another (relatively) progressive statement. In the past, the Catholic Church has alluded to backing evolution, however it was qualified by 'intelligent design'. He has actually declared support for the idea that the Big Bang theory and evolution are real - however that they were 'started' by God.
I think this is definitely one of the most progressive/secular statements made by the Church. Pope Francis has increasingly supported various secular ideas, such as being less intense about opposition to LGBT people, contraception, etc, and other things that were once very taboo for the Church. He shows a much more open-minded, in my opinion. I think that saying that 'God doesn't have a magic wand' is a pretty big deal for the Catholic Church. It reflects the ideas about religion that many religious (and irreligious) people may have in the 21st century. Although the Catholic Church is far from being a progressive or modern institution, it has come a long way under Pope Francis.

I think that the Pope, and whoever is predecessor is (if he is progressive, too) could continue the modernization of the Church, even if it is a very slow process. Pope Francis seems to do this modernization in a very slow way that won't offend anyone too much, while keeping up largely with public opinion. I really wish he'd just declare complete support for all the things the Church opposes, but I doubt that'd ever happen in the near or medium future.

So, NSG, what are your thoughts on this? Is Pope Francis really as progressive as everyone says he is? Is this a big deal? What's the future for the modernization of the Church?
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Postby Chestaan » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:20 am

See the thing about Pope Francis is that he's not actually re-inventing church beliefs on anything, he's just stating the church's beliefs in the correct, more tolerant and progressive way. The Catholic Church has long accepted evolution but the fact that he is saying this now marks an important change in priorities for the church.
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Postby Stormwind-City » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:21 am

Atlanticatia wrote:
In a move that could be aimed at healing a rift between science and religion, Pope Francis has said that evolution and the Big Bang are consistent with the notion of a creator. And according to the pontiff, believers should not view God as "a magician, with a magic wand."

Francis made the remarks at an assembly of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, billed as meeting to discuss "Evolving Concepts of Nature."

"When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so," Francis told the gathering, where he also dedicated a statue of his predecessor, Benedict XVI. God, Francis said, "created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfillment."

To be sure, the Catholic Church's views on the origins of the universe and life, unlike those of many Protestant sects, have for years been largely in line with the scientific consensus. The church has long leaned toward what some describe as "theistic evolution," i.e., a God supernaturally created the universe and life but allowed natural processes to work over billions of years.

In 1950, Pope Pius XII proclaimed that evolution was not at odds with Catholic teachings, and Pope John Paul II endorsed the view himself in 1996.

However, Pope Benedict hinted at accommodating "intelligent design," a form of creationism that has become popular in many religious circles in recent decades.

(As an aside, a recent Chapman University survey showed that more Americans believe in the lost civilization of Atlantis and that "UFOs are probably spaceships" than in evolution, and that as many people believed in Bigfoot as in the Big Bang.)

The Associated Press notes: "Francis has gone out of his way to embrace Benedict even as he steers the church on a vastly different course than that charted by the German theologian."

Francis' remarks are in keeping with a more open view he has taken to church matters and the intersection between the spiritual and secular worlds since becoming pope last year.

He has downplayed the importance of such hot-button issues as abortion, contraception and gay marriage, denounced the "cult of money," and even said that atheists can be redeemed.

But earlier this month, a group of bishops meeting at the Vatican showed that the church as a whole remains deeply divided on many of those issues.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... magic-wand


Well, the Pope has made another (relatively) progressive statement. In the past, the Catholic Church has alluded to backing evolution, however it was qualified by 'intelligent design'. He has actually declared support for the idea that the Big Bang theory and evolution are real - however that they were 'started' by God.
I think this is definitely one of the most progressive/secular statements made by the Church. Pope Francis has increasingly supported various secular ideas, such as being less intense about opposition to LGBT people, contraception, etc, and other things that were once very taboo for the Church. He shows a much more open-minded, in my opinion. I think that saying that 'God doesn't have a magic wand' is a pretty big deal for the Catholic Church. It reflects the ideas about religion that many religious (and irreligious) people may have in the 21st century. Although the Catholic Church is far from being a progressive or modern institution, it has come a long way under Pope Francis.

I think that the Pope, and whoever is predecessor is (if he is progressive, too) could continue the modernization of the Church, even if it is a very slow process. Pope Francis seems to do this modernization in a very slow way that won't offend anyone too much, while keeping up largely with public opinion. I really wish he'd just declare complete support for all the things the Church opposes, but I doubt that'd ever happen in the near or medium future.

So, NSG, what are your thoughts on this? Is Pope Francis really as progressive as everyone says he is? Is this a big deal? What's the future for the modernization of the Church?

The day that the Church OKs LGBTs and contraceptived(maybe abortion), I hope this site is still around so I can see certain poster's The Flood heads explode.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:22 am

Progressive pope. Nice. I just hope he's not assassinated.
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Postby Benuty » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:23 am

Stormwind-City wrote:
Atlanticatia wrote:
Well, the Pope has made another (relatively) progressive statement. In the past, the Catholic Church has alluded to backing evolution, however it was qualified by 'intelligent design'. He has actually declared support for the idea that the Big Bang theory and evolution are real - however that they were 'started' by God.
I think this is definitely one of the most progressive/secular statements made by the Church. Pope Francis has increasingly supported various secular ideas, such as being less intense about opposition to LGBT people, contraception, etc, and other things that were once very taboo for the Church. He shows a much more open-minded, in my opinion. I think that saying that 'God doesn't have a magic wand' is a pretty big deal for the Catholic Church. It reflects the ideas about religion that many religious (and irreligious) people may have in the 21st century. Although the Catholic Church is far from being a progressive or modern institution, it has come a long way under Pope Francis.

I think that the Pope, and whoever is predecessor is (if he is progressive, too) could continue the modernization of the Church, even if it is a very slow process. Pope Francis seems to do this modernization in a very slow way that won't offend anyone too much, while keeping up largely with public opinion. I really wish he'd just declare complete support for all the things the Church opposes, but I doubt that'd ever happen in the near or medium future.

So, NSG, what are your thoughts on this? Is Pope Francis really as progressive as everyone says he is? Is this a big deal? What's the future for the modernization of the Church?

The day that the Church OKs LGBTs and contraceptived(maybe abortion), I hope this site is still around so I can see certain poster's The Flood heads explode.


On the issue of LGBT, and said marriage issue 1/3rd of bishops is quite big a number.

Unfortunately the conservatives won that battle for policy making.
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Postby Stormwind-City » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:24 am

Benuty wrote:
Stormwind-City wrote:The day that the Church OKs LGBTs and contraceptived(maybe abortion), I hope this site is still around so I can see certain poster's The Flood heads explode.


On the issue of LGBT, and said marriage issue 1/3rd of bishops is quite big a number.

Unfortunately the conservatives won that battle for policy making.

All in good time.
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Postby Valaran » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:24 am

Chestaan wrote:See the thing about Pope Francis is that he's not actually re-inventing church beliefs on anything, he's just stating the church's beliefs in the correct, more tolerant and progressive way. The Catholic Church has long accepted evolution but the fact that he is saying this now marks an important change in priorities for the church.



Which is nice and welcome; I'm happy with what he's done so far :)

Can't think of anything more to add, other than express my approval of Francis. I hope he accepts things like contraception, gender equality and full LGBT rights, but I also feel that we do expect quite a lot from such an ancient institution that is notoriously resistant to change. Not to mention the corruption.
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Postby The Roman Imperial Republic » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:25 am

Well, so far he isn't dead. Maybe the Catholic church is right in saying that they should listen to their betters.
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Postby Benuty » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:25 am

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:Progressive pope. Nice. I just hope he's not assassinated.

Lets not.

Albeit I rather wish Oscar Romero hadn't been gunned down by those US funded death squads.

The energy from the liberationist movement might not have died down (as much as it did when most of their leadership were offed).
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Postby Old Tyrannia » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:25 am

God may not be a magician with a magic wand, but Pope Francis must be. His ability to make everyone praise him without actually saying anything different to what his predecessors have said for over a century (and in some cases for millennia) is surely magical.
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Postby Knockturn Alley » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:26 am

Well complete support will make the more conservative-minded ones raise their voices in outrage, so the process needs to be slow I guess...but at least he's acknowledging stuff which people would never have done in the past...Hopefully everyone who scoffs at science will take the cue and choose fact over faith
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Postby Senyosu » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:26 am

Unsurprising to me, actually. In due time, the policies he makes today would be enough to resonate with furture popes.
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Postby Blakullar » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:26 am

Stormwind-City wrote: The day that the Church OKs LGBTs and contraceptived(maybe abortion), I hope this site is still around so I can see certain poster's (The Flood) heads explode.

Clearly you haven't read their sig, which explicitly states that they're pro-LGBT.
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Postby Chestaan » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:27 am

Valaran wrote:
Chestaan wrote:See the thing about Pope Francis is that he's not actually re-inventing church beliefs on anything, he's just stating the church's beliefs in the correct, more tolerant and progressive way. The Catholic Church has long accepted evolution but the fact that he is saying this now marks an important change in priorities for the church.



Which is nice and welcome; I'm happy with what he's done so far :)

Can't think of anything more to add, other than express my approval of Francis. I hope he accepts things like contraception, gender equality and full LGBT rights, but I also feel that we do expect quite a lot from such an ancient institution that is notoriously resistant to change. Not to mention the corruption.


Yeah Papa Frankie is a good lad, I wish I could meet him some day.
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Postby Lordieth » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:27 am

This is just a move from creationism to intelligent design. Pope Francis knows how ridiculous the concept of an 8000-year-old earth is.

Props to him. He's trying damn hard to make Catholicism relevant in the 21st Century, but I fear it's too little, too late. Many people regard Catholicism as out of touch, although at least he's trying. But I suppose change doesn't come overnight.
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Postby Frisiiland » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:28 am

I'm pretty sure Pope Pius XII sayed that the big bang theory does not contradict with Catholic faith back in the 1950s.
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Postby Stormwind-City » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:28 am

Blakullar wrote:
Stormwind-City wrote: The day that the Church OKs LGBTs and contraceptived(maybe abortion), I hope this site is still around so I can see certain poster's (The Flood) heads explode.

Clearly you haven't read their sig, which explicitly states that they're pro-LGBT.

Referring to marriage.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:28 am

Benuty wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:Progressive pope. Nice. I just hope he's not assassinated.

Lets not.

Albeit I rather wish Oscar Romero hadn't been gunned down by those US funded death squads.

The energy from the liberationist movement might not have died down (as much as it did when most of their leadership were offed).


I'm more concerned about more radical elements inside the Catholic Church itself. Pope Francis has made certain comments that may be rustling some jimmies. I am with him, the church needs to be more progressive. But I know there are many Catholics out there who don't agree with the pope's views.
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Postby Chestaan » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:30 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:God may not be a magician with a magic wand, but Pope Francis must be. His ability to make everyone praise him without actually saying anything different to what his predecessors have said for over a century (and in some cases for millennia) is surely magical.


Take his stance on lgbt issues as an example. He says that we should love and accept lgbt people. Is this a new belief? Obviously not. But contrast that to Benedict XVI and his stance on homosexuality. I suppose you could say that Francis is getting praised for sticking closer to Catholic beliefs or that he is being praised for interpreting those beliefs differently.
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Postby Old Tyrannia » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:30 am

Frisiiland wrote:I think Pope Pius XII sayed that the big bang theory does not contradict with Catholic faith back in the 1950s.

The Big Bang Theory was originally developed by a Catholic priest.
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Postby New Kvenland » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:30 am

I have agreed with Francis's statement for years. Good for him. :clap:
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Postby Blakullar » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:31 am

Stormwind-City wrote:
Blakullar wrote:Clearly you haven't read their sig, which explicitly states that they're pro-LGBT.

Referring to marriage.

Again, you demonstrate that you haven't fully read their sig. In their Detailed Views factbook, they quite clearly state: "The most central of all Christian teachings is 'love thy neighbour as thyself'. To be intolerant of a stranger is to be intolerant of Christ, a Christian must always love and accept other people", referring to LGBTs in general, not just gay marriage.
Last edited by Blakullar on Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Acharastan » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:32 am

Valaran wrote:
Chestaan wrote:See the thing about Pope Francis is that he's not actually re-inventing church beliefs on anything, he's just stating the church's beliefs in the correct, more tolerant and progressive way. The Catholic Church has long accepted evolution but the fact that he is saying this now marks an important change in priorities for the church.



Which is nice and welcome; I'm happy with what he's done so far :)

Can't think of anything more to add, other than express my approval of Francis. I hope he accepts things like contraception, gender equality and full LGBT rights, but I also feel that we do expect quite a lot from such an ancient institution that is notoriously resistant to change. Not to mention the corruption.

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Postby The Sotoan Union » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:32 am

I really wish he'd just declare complete support for all the things the Church opposes, but I doubt that'd ever happen in the near or medium future.


Lol what. The church opposes murder too should he declare support for that? Maybe that should be phrased better.

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Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:32 am

This in itself is not a big deal in particular. As mentioned in the article, the catholic church was already not opposed to Evolution. The full endorsement of it (albeit with a kickstart from the supreme being) is only logical to come.

I realy, really, like the fact that it has surpassed various Protestant denominations with this statement. And I hope that this is a major step towards driving out creationism from the Biology classes in schools.
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