Detroit woman shot and killed for not giving phone number.

[Ostroeuropa]

Yeh?
How does the context of this alter the problem?

Me not giving money to beggars that look like they're from Romania may be racist, but the context is that there is a beggar mafia that primarily recruits Romanians where I live. I have no way of telling if the money will actually benefit the person or if it will go to whoever runs that mob. This would be utterly different in terms of justification from me treating anyone that looks like they might be from Romania with contempt. (To be fair to me, I don't give money to any beggars that aren't selling newspapers or the like, though I will on occasion give food because if that ends up in some mob boss' pocket, it's to their detriment.)

This discussion is similar. The "you can't tell" argument is being presented very much exclusively in the context of men making advances, so it does not compare to general xenophobia or racism.

Arab on a plane.

[Scepez]

The key to understand why you're so blantantly wrong in interpreting the above sentence is the "might". The might explicitely indicates that #NotAllMen will kill a woman for being rejected. The argument is that there is no meaningful way to tell the difference between the 99 nice strangers and the 1 murderer. Assuming for the moment that those are accurate statistics.

So, no. #NotAllMen are being accused of being evil pricks. It's an incredibly popular delusion, but a delusion that Saint Jade said anything of the sort in the OP.

What about the "This is why we are afraid of men " part? I didn't see "This is why we are afraid of SOME men"

Which is why I'm here attempting to get you to realize that you're utterly misinterpreting the OP. I'm hoping that you'll change your selfish attitude.

I'm selfish? Where did I say I was doing this for myself?
The OP contained the link, a short summary, and then an opinion, which included some bad-mouthing against men.

[Laerod]

Where does she blame all men for this is the better question.

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/26719319/mass-shooting-kills-mother-of-three-wounds-five-others

Men, whenever you question why we don't tell you why we aren't interested, this is why. Whenever we "lead you on", this is why.

This is why women fear men. This is why we avoid you in the street, in the club, everywhere. Because you might decide to shoot us.

I bet this woman encountered hundreds of unsolicited requests for her phone number over the years. However, it only took one pissed off guy to decide that her refusal warranted the death penalty to end her life, and leave another man without a fiancé, and 3 children without a mother.

So NSG, what say you? Is this yet another example of the way our culture believes men are entitled to women, or is this simply a tragic, crazy once-off.

I could replace the word men with Negroes, and this site would go bonkers. this is sexism. she doesn't see the world in terms of good and bad character, just by what they're packing in their pants. Its sick, and THIS is what needs to stop if we want to end sexism.

There is no statement where all men are blamed for this. Quite the opposite. And I could replace all that with foxes and rabies and it would be just as accurate. Hell, I could replace it all with smokers and it would be accurate.

[Laerod]

Me not giving money to beggars that look like they're from Romania may be racist, but the context is that there is a beggar mafia that primarily recruits Romanians where I live. I have no way of telling if the money will actually benefit the person or if it will go to whoever runs that mob. This would be utterly different in terms of justification from me treating anyone that looks like they might be from Romania with contempt. (To be fair to me, I don't give money to any beggars that aren't selling newspapers or the like, though I will on occasion give food because if that ends up in some mob boss' pocket, it's to their detriment.)

This discussion is similar. The "you can't tell" argument is being presented very much exclusively in the context of men making advances, so it does not compare to general xenophobia or racism.

Arab on a plane.

If he paid for a ticket then he's most certainly entitled to flying on it.

[Ostroeuropa]

Arab on a plane.

If he paid for a ticket then he's most certainly entitled to flying on it.

And i'm cool with being automatically afraid of him because he's an arab on a plane?
That wouldn't be racist at all?

Bullshit.
You have rationalized for bigotry this entire thread.

[Laerod]

The key to understand why you're so blantantly wrong in interpreting the above sentence is the "might". The might explicitely indicates that #NotAllMen will kill a woman for being rejected. The argument is that there is no meaningful way to tell the difference between the 99 nice strangers and the 1 murderer. Assuming for the moment that those are accurate statistics.

So, no. #NotAllMen are being accused of being evil pricks. It's an incredibly popular delusion, but a delusion that Saint Jade said anything of the sort in the OP.

What about the "This is why we are afraid of men " part? I didn't see "This is why we are afraid of SOME men"

Because she has zero way of telling the difference. Just like I have zero way of telling whether a fox is rabid or not. I'm afraid or wary of ALL foxes because they MIGHT have rabies and I am totally justified in thinking so. It would be a lie to suggest one is only afraid of some.

Which is why I'm here attempting to get you to realize that you're utterly misinterpreting the OP. I'm hoping that you'll change your selfish attitude.

I'm selfish? Where did I say I was doing this for myself?
The OP contained the link, a short summary, and then an an opinion, which included some bad-mouthing against men.

See, that's exactly it. You're so selfish you made this about yourself to the point that you're blatantly misinterpreting what the OP said.

[Ostroeuropa]

What about the "This is why we are afraid of men " part? I didn't see "This is why we are afraid of SOME men"

Because she has zero way of telling the difference. Just like I have zero way of telling whether a fox is rabid or not. I'm afraid or wary of ALL foxes because they MIGHT have rabies and I am totally justified in thinking so. It would be a lie to suggest one is only afraid of some.

I'm selfish? Where did I say I was doing this for myself?
The OP contained the link, a short summary, and then an an opinion, which included some bad-mouthing against men.

See, that's exactly it. You're so selfish you made this about yourself to the point that you're blatantly misinterpreting what the OP said.

Ok. So it's justified to be afraid of Arabs on planes and Blacks in alleys.
(By the way, as i've pointed out, this is entirely in womens control to fix this situation. So why should I care about their complaints?
I care about the woman who got shot. It sucks for her. It's sad her fellow women were too passive to fix the situation.)

What can men do to stop themselves going crazy?
No seriously, that's the demand here, and it's such a fucking stupid demand I can't believe people take it seriously.

It's entirely in womens court. But they dont fix it. They just demand men change. Because men act and women react. That's what they believe, and worse, it's how they ACT.

[Scepez]

Because she has zero way of telling the difference. Just like I have zero way of telling whether a fox is rabid or not. I'm afraid or wary of ALL foxes because they MIGHT have rabies and I am totally justified in thinking so. It would be a lie to suggest one is only afraid of some.

If the fox looks angry, has foam dripping from its mouth and generally looks dangerous, it has rabies.

See, that's exactly it. You're so selfish you made this about yourself to the point that you're blatantly misinterpreting what the OP said.

Well then, I must be the most considerate selfish person yet because other people seem to think the same as well.

[Laerod]

If he paid for a ticket then he's most certainly entitled to flying on it.

And i'm cool with being automatically afraid of him because he's an arab on a plane?
That wouldn't be racist at all?

Being afraid? Sure. Treating them like a terrorist? Very different. Mind you the OP is in the context of actions that have set off murders. If a certain Arab actually was attempting to blow up a plane or hijack it, it wouldn't be dependent on you rejecting them or something comparable.

Bullshit.
You have rationalized for bigotry this entire thread.

Meh. If you really prefer to debate strawmen rather than the issue at hand...

[Laerod]

(By the way, as i've pointed out, this is entirely in womens control to fix this situation. So why should I care about their complaints?
I care about the woman who got shot. It sucks for her. It's sad her fellow women were too passive to fix the situation.)

Yeah, I have nothing else to say to you anymore.

[Ostroeuropa]

(By the way, as i've pointed out, this is entirely in womens control to fix this situation. So why should I care about their complaints?
I care about the woman who got shot. It sucks for her. It's sad her fellow women were too passive to fix the situation.)

Yeah, I have nothing else to say to you anymore.

So, women should accept harassment, threats and violence from men, because that's how the world works, and you're insulted that people have pointed out that that's how some people think that's how the world works.

Way to go. Maybe you can next be horrified that people are afraid of rabid dogs, ebola, and war. They're all how the world works too.

I'd say women should get off their ass and get more involved in the dating scene, start hitting on men they find attractive more, etc. That will drive down the amount of hitting on people men have to do. It'll drive down the pressure and stress on men who get rejected and leave them less likely to flip their lid, since they'll need to hit on people and get rejected less. (A man can't be passive. He'll never get a date. He has to go out and ask lots of women, otherwise other men will get them first.)
By being passive, women are forcing men into a high stress situation, then whining and complaining when one of them snaps under the pressure.
Ok.
YOU do the fucking job then, if you're so much better at it girls.
It'd lead to less shootings overall probably. But don't kid yourselves, if men just sat there looking pretty and thought "This is my entire contribution." then women had to come up to us and we rejected one of them hundreds of times, and we did this to a large enough population, one of them WOULD snap.
Equalizing the pressure is the only solution. It also stops women from complaining so much about getting hit on, because then they might actually understand it.

So this situation?
It's ENTIRELY in womens control to fix. But they instead blame the men.
Because they are passive.
It's why I can't take this complaint seriously anymore.
They cause this culture.

Got an argument or not.
It's fine if you have nothing to say too ofcourse.

[Laerod]

Because she has zero way of telling the difference. Just like I have zero way of telling whether a fox is rabid or not. I'm afraid or wary of ALL foxes because they MIGHT have rabies and I am totally justified in thinking so. It would be a lie to suggest one is only afraid of some.

If the fox looks angry, has foam dripping from its mouth and generally looks dangerous, it has rabies.

And if it doesn't, it may very well have rabies as well. There's cases where it's obvious, but those aren't relevant because you cannot truthfully tell a rabid fox from one that is not merely by looking at them.

See, that's exactly it. You're so selfish you made this about yourself to the point that you're blatantly misinterpreting what the OP said.

Well then, I must be the most considerate selfish person yet because other people seem to think the same as well.

I did say it was a popular delusion.

[Czechanada]

Why do gender roles have to be the primary motivation? There are various criminological factors that could have been behind this.

[Laerod]

Why do gender roles have to be the primary motivation? There are various criminological factors that could have been behind this.

When the guy keeps harassing her and asking for her number it's rather clear why. Unless you're saying he did that to cover up the real motive, in which case extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

[Divitaen]

Why do gender roles have to be the primary motivation? There are various criminological factors that could have been behind this.

Because clearly the guy thought that he was entitled to the girl's number. Sexism and misogyny is very clearly involved.

[Ostroeuropa]

Why do gender roles have to be the primary motivation? There are various criminological factors that could have been behind this.

Because clearly the guy thought that he was entitled to the girl's number. Sexism and misogyny is very clearly involved.

I don't think he felt entitled. That's a ridiculous way of viewing the situation. Unless you are implying this is the first time someone rejected him and he decided that was unacceptable behaviour since he's obviously entitled.

What he felt was desperate and crazy. The reason he felt like that is that society engages in a wide spread of "real manism" that tells men that if they can't get a woman, they are a fuckup and such.
Women engage in this behaviour more than men.

Further, the emotional stress of this and the fact that men are expected to be the engagers and women don't have to means that men are sharing far more than their fair burdens of rejection and the emotional stress involved.

Because women engage in real manism, and because women are passive in the dating scene (Forcing men into a high stress situation in which some of them snap and go crazy), this shit happens.
then they complain about it.
Ok girls. You do it then if you're better at it.
But complaining about the job we do when you're refusing to do it yourself? I couldn't give less of a fuck.
When women start engaging in the dating scene more and asking out more men, and thinking their contribution is more than "I look pretty and sit here. I did my part."
That'll fix the problem of disproportionate roles.

They can fix it. They wont. They just complain at the men.

How dare some of you snap in this high stress situation we put you in and refuse to get into ourselves because it sucks!?

[Divitaen]

Because clearly the guy thought that he was entitled to the girl's number. Sexism and misogyny is very clearly involved.

I don't think he felt entitled. That's a ridiculous way of viewing the situation. Unless you are implying this is the first time someone rejected him and he decided that was unacceptable behaviour since he's obviously entitled.

What he felt was desperate and crazy.

As in he was weaned on a misogynistic culture and the theory that men are entitled to a woman's body. I don't think its ridiculous to view this situation through gendered lenses anymore than I should interpret street harassment as a clear sign that some men don't understand boundaries and believe that a woman's body is public property.

[Paixao]

Why do gender roles have to be the primary motivation? There are various criminological factors that could have been behind this.

Agreed.

When the guy keeps harassing her and asking for her number it's rather clear why. Unless you're saying he did that to cover up the real motive, in which case extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Not really, there are plenty of other men who harass women for their numbers and don't end up murdering them in cold blood.

Doesn't make them any less douchey or obnoxious, but it does disprove this being solely a gender roles thing.

Because clearly the guy thought that he was entitled to the girl's number. Sexism and misogyny is very clearly involved.

Again, many men (wrongly) think they're entitled to a lady's number. Most of them don't shoot her in cold blood. Sexism and misogyny is only an outlying factor or circumstance to this individual's homicidal potential.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't think he felt entitled. That's a ridiculous way of viewing the situation. Unless you are implying this is the first time someone rejected him and he decided that was unacceptable behaviour since he's obviously entitled.

What he felt was desperate and crazy.

As in he was weaned on a misogynistic culture and the theory that men are entitled to a woman's body. I don't think its ridiculous to view this situation through gendered lenses anymore than I should interpret street harassment as a clear sign that some men don't understand boundaries and believe that a woman's body is public property.

I'm saying we can't possibly know.
He could have been raised in a misandrist culture that says he's a fuckup and a second class citizen for failing to get a woman to accept him.
(Something advanced more by women than by men.)
That kind of ego destruction occasionally leads to some people fighting back.

[Sklavinia]

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/26719319/mass-shooting-kills-mother-of-three-wounds-five-others

Men, whenever you question why we don't tell you why we aren't interested, this is why. Whenever we "lead you on", this is why.

This is why women fear men. This is why we avoid you in the street, in the club, everywhere. Because you might decide to shoot us.

I bet this woman encountered hundreds of unsolicited requests for her phone number over the years. However, it only took one pissed off guy to decide that her refusal warranted the death penalty to end her life, and leave another man without a fiancé, and 3 children without a mother.

So NSG, what say you? Is this yet another example of the way our culture believes men are entitled to women, or is this simply a tragic, crazy once-off.

"Men, stay away from women because we don't trust you not to shoot us even though a woman could just as easily have done this had the role been reversed! UGH, MEN."

That's what I read from this OP.

[Divitaen]

Because clearly the guy thought that he was entitled to the girl's number. Sexism and misogyny is very clearly involved.

Again, many men (wrongly) think they're entitled to a lady's number. Most of them don't shoot her in cold blood. Sexism and misogyny is only an outlying factor or circumstance to this individual's homicidal potential.

Oh I agree that not all men go around shooting women who reject them, but if misogyny and misogynistic rape culture is at least an outlying motivation, we should still discuss that. The Eliot Rodger Isla Vista massacre rightly sparked a debate on female harassment and women's rights, and rightly so, even though not only rejected guys go around shooting women in California.

[Ostroeuropa]

Again, many men (wrongly) think they're entitled to a lady's number. Most of them don't shoot her in cold blood. Sexism and misogyny is only an outlying factor or circumstance to this individual's homicidal potential.

Oh I agree that not all men go around shooting women who reject them, but if misogyny and misogynistic rape culture is at least an outlying motivation, we should still discuss that. The Eliot Rodger Isla Vista massacre rightly sparked a debate on female harassment and women's rights, and rightly so, even though not only rejected guys go around shooting women in California.

We can discuss it, sure.
Let's also discuss misandry and real manism. But some people don't want to do that.

[Laerod]

When the guy keeps harassing her and asking for her number it's rather clear why. Unless you're saying he did that to cover up the real motive, in which case extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Not really, there are plenty of other men who harass women for their numbers and don't end up murdering them in cold blood.

Doesn't make them any less douchey or obnoxious, but it does disprove this being solely a gender roles thing.

I'm sorry, are you suggesting Emmett Till's lynching being racially motivated is disproven because other black people have been discriminated against without being killed?

[Lordieth]

Oh I agree that not all men go around shooting women who reject them, but if misogyny and misogynistic rape culture is at least an outlying motivation, we should still discuss that. The Eliot Rodger Isla Vista massacre rightly sparked a debate on female harassment and women's rights, and rightly so, even though not only rejected guys go around shooting women in California.

We can discuss it, sure.
Let's also discuss misandry and real manism. But some people don't want to do that.

It's a bit hard to open a dialogue when you basically end up with;

"Man committed crime against a Woman! All men are scum!"
"All women are feminist extremists because you said that!"

Not a lot of room for dialogue in that sort of attitude on either side of the fence.

[Laerod]

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/26719319/mass-shooting-kills-mother-of-three-wounds-five-others

Men, whenever you question why we don't tell you why we aren't interested, this is why. Whenever we "lead you on", this is why.

This is why women fear men. This is why we avoid you in the street, in the club, everywhere. Because you might decide to shoot us.

I bet this woman encountered hundreds of unsolicited requests for her phone number over the years. However, it only took one pissed off guy to decide that her refusal warranted the death penalty to end her life, and leave another man without a fiancé, and 3 children without a mother.

So NSG, what say you? Is this yet another example of the way our culture believes men are entitled to women, or is this simply a tragic, crazy once-off.

"Men, stay away from women because we don't trust you not to shoot us even though a woman could just as easily have done this had the role been reversed! UGH, MEN."

That's what I read from this OP.

If a woman could have as easily done this then you'll have no problem finding two cases from this year of that happening. Mind you, the last person that made that argument failed to find any cases.