Detroit woman shot and killed for not giving phone number.

[Ostroeuropa]

Sure you can worry. A man can worry too if some random chick would jump out a bush a slit his throat because of last night.

Name 2 cases this year where this has happened.

All I see is just a giant whining campaign.

How terrible of me to question why this crime occurred under these circumstances and highlighting the experience of women. I'm so sorry that I apparently am whining, because I have a problem with the attitude that men are entitled to my body.

Yes, this was a horrible incident. Yes, the guy was a crazy dick.

I'm glad you see that. It's a shame you don't think it worthwhile to investigate why this particular incident was a trigger for him choosing to shoot people. I mean, the fact that earlier this year we had a man whose trigger was eerily similar go on a killing spree is in no way related. Nuh uh. They're just crazy people. Yep. Case closed.

We know all of this, it's not like the police would have ignored this because of the backstory.

Did I at any point suggest the police were ignoring it? But, since you bring police up, I do wonder if the fact that the message police so frequently give young women is to change our behaviour to avoid rapists, and "unwanted attention" by not being in public might have contributed to this man's belief that women in public were his to claim.

No-body is saying this is justified, but thinking most men are like this

Nowhere have I said this. In fact, I've been pretty clear about the fact that a majority of men do not go to these extremes.

and that have women have the right to punch, kick and then put his salami in a deep frier if he DARES to say a suggestive comment,

Women do have a right to self-defence. And there is a difference between a suggestive comment, and repeatedly badgering a woman who has made it clear she has no interest.

at a Pub, where you willingly went to, knowing exactly that you will get those comments.

And there we have it, ladies and gentlemen. How DARE women expect to be able to be in a public venue, without being harassed and sexually assaulted. I mean, really, if you are going to a public venue to socialise with your friends, it's almost the same as consenting to have random men grope and harass you.

I mean, it's cute that you think you're people, with rights and all that. But never forget, you're just our playthings. We'll tell you where you can go, and how you can behave.

Sadly to say it's true.
I'm going to go off and bash my own gender for a change and say most men go to those pubs to do these sort of things. Again not all do, but a decent chunk.
This kind of stuff is inevitable. I could propose a couple of women only Pubs, where they can go to if they don't want to be looked at and get any comments, but then I would be grilled with saying I want to isolate women, which I don't, but that's what I would get.

Wouldn't it be funny if we applied the same logic to those engaging in sit-ins in the Deep South? I mean, like, if they didn't want to be assaulted and maybe murdered, they could have just sat in the Coloured section like good little n******. It's not really like those actions changed a racist mentality, or made things better for African Americans in southern states after all.

Women get seen as a sexually desirable partners.
Whining about how they are is one massive excercise in privilege blindness and tone deafness.

"We have more social capital than you in this area! WAHHHHH!!!!!"

When you couple that with their typical passivity (not all women, just most of them.) it gets incredibly tedious and impossible to take their complaints about getting hit on seriously. Especially when so many of them just sit here, do nothing, and fume silently when a guy they like doesn't approach them.

Shockingly, maybe low-self esteem and desperation can drive people to do crazy and insane shit.
Did it occur to you that if women as a whole didn't find 80% of men unnattractive (Compared to the bell curve males use)
and that maybe if women didn't also engage in real manism so much
"You're a virgin? Something wrong with you. Why don't more women like you? Clearly defective."
That maybe people wouldn't think their worthihood as a member of the species relies on getting laid and shoot someone for condemning them to second class citizenship status.

But no, that'd require women to fix their own problems.
And clearly, that's just misogyny. Far better for women to whine about being passive, and demand other people change for them.

This guy was a nutter.
Either through a slow buildup and breakdown, or just flipping his shit one day, or having always been crazy.


MAYBE, if men were allowed to ask for help and seek psychiatric help, he wouldn't have shot this woman.
Complaining a black slave one day goes crazy and kills masters kids?
Sounds a bit fucking ridiculous.

[Ostroeuropa]

Addressing men as a monolith? Gosh. How nice of you. That's not conceited at all.
I remember once a woman cheated on me, that makes all women cheating whores who I dont trust. That's cool to say and not bigoted, right?

Could you at least TRY at contain your bigotry?

Well now we know what explains your misogyny.

I'm not a misogynist. Sorry to burst your bubble. I simply despise double standards. My ex cheated on me because she was a contemptible person. So I just got a new girlfriend. It's that simple. I don't blame the entire gender for it like you apparently do.

[Scepez]

Name 2 cases this year where this has happened.

I already refuted that point before.

How terrible of me to question why this crime occurred under these circumstances and highlighting the experience of women. I'm so sorry that I apparently am whining, because I have a problem with the attitude that men are entitled to my body.

They aren't, and most don't think that either. Again, stop making accusations because of a few incidents.

I'm glad you see that. It's a shame you don't think it worthwhile to investigate why this particular incident was a trigger for him choosing to shoot people. I mean, the fact that earlier this year we had a man whose trigger was eerily similar go on a killing spree is in no way related. Nuh uh. They're just crazy people. Yep. Case closed.

So you're saying he, wasn't crazy? OF COURSE HE WAS! A person with a healthy mental mind wouldn't do this shit!

Did I at any point suggest the police were ignoring it? But, since you bring police up, I do wonder if the fact that the message police so frequently give young women is to change our behaviour to avoid rapists, and "unwanted attention" by not being in public might have contributed to this man's belief that women in public were his to claim.

No-body is safe from rapists, that's given. But people DO need to take more careful steps to decrease that chance.

Nowhere have I said this. In fact, I've been pretty clear about the fact that a majority of men do not go to these extremes.

Then why did you say "This is why women fear men" in the OP?

Women do have a right to self-defence. And there is a difference between a suggestive comment, and repeatedly badgering a woman who has made it clear she has no interest.

Of course they are, everyone has a right to self defense, and I didn't say that the badgering was justified.

And there we have it, ladies and gentlemen. How DARE women expect to be able to be in a public venue, without being harassed and sexually assaulted. I mean, really, if you are going to a public venue to socialise with your friends, it's almost the same as consenting to have random men grope and harass you.

Alright, fine. You can socialize with your friends wherever you want, and not get groped. But as I said before, most men go to pubs and clubs to do just that.
If you want eliminate that problem, you need to hire specialized people that beat the shit out of any man that wants to go to a pub and try his luck on some ladies. Which would be cruel and completely unfair. If you want to socialize without that, go to a Starbucks or the mall in the day. A pubs sole purpose is to be a place where people get drunk and do stupid shit.

I mean, it's cute that you think you're people, with rights and all that. But never forget, you're just our playthings. We'll tell you where you can go, and how you can behave.

Why don't we reverse that a bit?
"You stupid men! Thinking you can do things that we don't like? Fo shame! Go crawl back into the lonely and dark pit where you came from and don't come back!"
Men have rights too, and so do women. Men aren't your playthings either, and neither can you tell us where we need to go or how to behave.
Sounds stupid and fucked up? That's what you were implying.

Wouldn't it be funny if we applied the same logic to those engaging in sit-ins in the Deep South? I mean, like, if they didn't want to be assaulted and maybe murdered, they could have just sat in the Coloured section like good little n******. It's not really like those actions changed a racist mentality, or made things better for African Americans in southern states after all.

Where does the Deep South of African Americans come in?

[Sdaeriji]

This kind of stuff is inevitable.

This is the exact thing that needs to change.

[Ostroeuropa]

Addressing men as a monolith? Gosh. How nice of you. That's not conceited at all.
I remember once a woman cheated on me, that makes all women cheating whores who I dont trust. That's cool to say and not bigoted, right?

Could you at least TRY at contain your bigotry?

Well now we know what explains your misogyny.

I also find it hilarious that you think THIS would explain it if it existed.
It shows you know absolutely nothing about me or my arguments on this subject and are just going for your go-to dismissal of a persons arguments so you don't actually have to think. As far as my experience with women goes, getting cheated on by one of my exes isn't exactly on the radar of explanations compared to being a domestic abuse survivor.
"He disagrees because he hates me."

Ok.
Let's say that was true.
So what?
I'm still right. I can hate women and still be right. I don't, but it's possible.
Did that blow your mind? One massive excercise in bigotry and not having an argument. That's all your worldview is.

[Saint Jade IV]

What the hell, OP.

Making this an "men feel entitled" thing out of one idiot's decision to go on a killing spree is not acceptable.

Because of course, the trigger for his killing spree being the rejection by a woman couldn't possibly be explained by his belief that he was entitled to women. And of course, Elliott Rodger was an isolated incident, completely cut off from any societal messages. It's completely coincidental that these two men went on a killing spree specifically because they were rejected by women.

And of course, the fact that we have had two men kill women for rejecting them shouldn't make women wary at all. We shouldn't at all take precautions to protect ourselves.

Should I, every time I hear of a mother killing her newborn child or shooting her husband, cry out "WOMEN ARE VIOLENT EMOTIONAL CONTROL FREAKS!!". No, because it's not true.

It'd be nice if I said anything that remotely supports this point. But I didn't.

Equally, one psychopath does not make the rest of the gender responsible and is not evidence of their feeling of entitlement.

Yeah. I agree completely. Now, if you could helpfully point out the visible attributes of the few psychopaths who will be triggered by my rejection into assault, rape or murder, I'll stop assessing the potential threat men pose based on the way they treat me. Until then, I'm going to assume that, until proven otherwise, a man is a threat to my safety.

Yes we should work towards making the world a safer place for women, by locking up men that think the sort of behavior demonstrated is unacceptable, and encouraging our sons (and men in general) to respect a woman when she says "no", but to go about blaming the rest of society for the actions of individuals is pathetic.

And you don't think that the idea of the "friend zone" contributes in any way to these kinds of extreme expressions of entitlement? You don't think that catcalling a woman on the street is a contributing factor in any way? You don't think that the notion that I should EXPECT to be sexually assaulted for daring to be in a pub, as one poster asserted, in any way contributes to the entitlement mentality of some men, and creates in the mind of sick individuals a belief that they have a right to harm us?

The fact is that society is affected just as much by women's opinion's as men, so when people insist that men are to blame for this and that, they're wrong. Either we're all to blame or none of us are to blame, individually, because we are a society. Our society is wrong, not "men".

Oh I see. I haven't been arguing that our society's misguided notions of masculinity and male entitlement have contributed to this. I've been arguing that men are inherently evil, and that these kinds of mentalities happen in a vacuum which has nothing to do with society. I haven't been suggesting that we change the attitudes around women's right to be in public without sexual harassment or sexual assault, which is a problem that society needs to address. I've been arguing that men are immutably, irredeemably evil, and we should just eliminate them.

Oh...wait.

[Laerod]

Name 2 cases this year where this has happened.

I already refuted that point before.

Bullshit you did. You dodged having to defend your position.

[Scepez]

This kind of stuff is inevitable.

This is the exact thing that needs to change.

That's true, but it would be extremely difficult.
I provided a few examples on Women-Only bars and Anti-Grope men, none of those are actually realistically doable.

[Laerod]

What I think? 0.0 i'm equalist, just wanted to point this out before saying anything. Right so from what I saw from a quick scim someone got shot because she didn't give her phone number to some guy. That doesn' mean every sing man on the planet is like that, 1 in 3.5 billionish...leading a guy on is just annoying and that's it, she shouldn't have been shot but you(OP) can't say all men are like that and you need to change >:(

We must remember who the real victims in a shooting of a woman that rejected the advances of a man are: Men who might have a harder time to get a date because of it.

[Scepez]

I already refuted that point before.

Bullshit you did. You dodged having to defend your position.

Dodged?
Why the hell do I need to provide examples of it happening THIS year?
I mean, why can't you get it that even if it happens a little bit less, it doesn't make it any more acceptable.
The nerve of some people...

[Laerod]

Bullshit you did. You dodged having to defend your position.

Dodged?
Why the hell do I need to provide examples of it happening THIS year?

I explained that to you.

I mean, why can't you get it that even if it happens a little bit less, it doesn't make it any more acceptable.
The nerve of some people...

I explained that too.

[Imperializt Russia]

So NSG, what say you? Is this yet another example of the way our culture believes men are entitled to women, or is this simply a tragic, crazy once-off.

It's both. Calling it "another example" of entitlement culture implies it's somehow likely.

This incident and the Isla Vista shootings are most extreme of extreme of disturbed opinions on women and entitlement culture. They're not relevant to entitlement culture on their own.

[Ravenflight]

What I think? 0.0 i'm equalist, just wanted to point this out before saying anything. Right so from what I saw from a quick scim someone got shot because she didn't give her phone number to some guy. That doesn' mean every sing man on the planet is like that, 1 in 3.5 billionish...leading a guy on is just annoying and that's it, she shouldn't have been shot but you(OP) can't say all men are like that and you need to change

We must remember who the real victims in a shooting of a woman that rejected the advances of a man are: Men who might have a harder time to get a date because of it.

Awww poor us *licks wound like a puppy* So? That point is just pointless. I'm actually serious. Go find me a graph which shows that, oh and it has to be from a non bias group, go on

[Scepez]

I explained that to you.

Uh, no you didn't.
All you said was "IS TOO SO!" Providing no actual reason.

[Sdaeriji]

This is the exact thing that needs to change.

That's true, but it would be extremely difficult.
I provided a few examples on Women-Only bars and Anti-Grope men, none of those are actually realistically doable.

Those aren't examples of anything. They would only exacerbate the problem.

[Ostroeuropa]

And you don't think that the idea of the "friend zone" contributes in any way to these kinds of extreme expressions of entitlement? You don't think that catcalling a woman on the street is a contributing factor in any way? You don't think that the notion that I should EXPECT to be sexually assaulted for daring to be in a pub, as one poster asserted, in any way contributes to the entitlement mentality of some men, and creates in the mind of sick individuals a belief that they have a right to harm us?

ITT:
Women complain about being privileged and seen as sexually desirable partners, engage in tone deafness, etc.

The friend zone is a description of the emotional turmoil that can occur from being sexually attracted to someone who just wants to be friends.
People shouldn't be in friend zones, they should cut all ties with the person until they get over their feelings.
Just like men aren't entitled to a womans body, a woman isn't entitled to a mans friendship. If he's getting nothing out of it but pining and feeling bad that he isn't with her, then thats that. But no, apparently even THAT is misogyny, because you're here to be the womans friend. Not allowed to take your own feelings into consideration and bail.

Catcalling? How utterly fucking atrocious for you guys, to be reminded that you are sexually desirable.
How awful. Terrible. Get over yourselves, gawd.

You EXPECT to be sexually assaulted in bars? Bullshit. Unless you're crazy paranoid at least.
Wait wait, are you confusing sexual assault for being hit on?

Shockingly, people who have money?
Tend to be good targets for getting robbed.

Sounds callous to put it that way, but there it is. It doesn't make them poor oppressed victims of class oppression when it happens.
I know this is all completely heretical, but there it is.
Women need to start asking men out more and getting more involved with the dating scene, otherwise this situation that you apparently hate so much?
Is just going to continue.
Men HAVE to approach women. Because women won't.
That's all there is to it.

[Laerod]

We must remember who the real victims in a shooting of a woman that rejected the advances of a man are: Men who might have a harder time to get a date because of it.

Awww poor us *licks wound like a puppy* So? That point is just pointless. I'm actually serious. Go find me a graph which shows that, oh and it has to be from a non bias group, go on :)

If you want me to answer your posts, please make sense.

[Greater Beggnig]

*Looks at title and sees Detroit*
*Thinks to himself that this is nothing new*

I think the OP is a little harsh on us men TBH. Most of us aren't going to act like this, but I could be wrong.

No. You are wrong, I organise mass executions of women on a daily basis!

[Scepez]

That's true, but it would be extremely difficult.
I provided a few examples on Women-Only bars and Anti-Grope men, none of those are actually realistically doable.

Those aren't examples of anything. They would only exacerbate the problem.

Well, Semi-Examples then. And if that's so, what kind of ideas do you have?

[Herrebrugh]

Women never gave me the impression they feared me...

But then, I couldn't imagine anyone being afraid of me...

[Ravenflight]

Awww poor us *licks wound like a puppy* So? That point is just pointless. I'm actually serious. Go find me a graph which shows that, oh and it has to be from a non bias group, go on

If you want me to answer your posts, please make sense.

GO.FIND.A.GRAPH.OR.SOMETHING.TO.PROVE.YOUR.POINT!

[Sdaeriji]

ITT:
Women complain about being privileged and seen as sexually desirable partners, engage in tone deafness, etc.

ITT: Ostroeuropa actually claims that sexual harassment is a privilege.

[Ostroeuropa]

ITT:
Women complain about being privileged and seen as sexually desirable partners, engage in tone deafness, etc.

ITT: Ostroeuropa actually claims that sexual harassment is a privilege.

Harassment? No, no ofcourse not.
But here's the thing.

If I waltz up to a woman and hit on her, i'm not harassing her if I go away afterward.
Nor is the next guy.
Nor the next.

Now this might get really fucking tedious for the woman involved to get hit on by a hundred guys, but none of it is harassment, and maybe if she engaged more and went and hit on people, the rest of the men in the room wouldn't be sat there wondering.
"Hm, does she like me?"
because they'd see "Oh, she likes him."


The guy who shot the woman? That's the kind of shit that happens when you meet lots and lots of people.
One of them is going to be crazy.
So how can women get hit on less and meet less people, thus driving down the pool of crazies?
Plenty of ways.

But no, it's men who've got to change. We have to, somehow, prevent ourselves being insane.
Got forbid women do something to better their own situation in an actually possible way though, it's easier to be completely passive and demand others change.
Because men do things and women have things done to them. And they dont want to change that. At leasts, the feminists seem not to want it.

[Laerod]

I explained that to you.

Uh, no you didn't.
All you said was "IS TOO SO!" Providing no actual reason.

Nah. If you're really so hurt by having to find a single case from this year, find some recent cases of female on male violence due to rejection.

[Sdaeriji]

ITT: Ostroeuropa actually claims that sexual harassment is a privilege.

Harassment? No, no ofcourse not.
But here's the thing.

If I waltz up to a woman and hit on her, i'm not harassing her if I go away afterward.
Nor is the next guy.
Nor the next.

Now this might get really fucking tedious for the woman involved to get hit on by a hundred guys, but none of it is harassment, and maybe if she engaged more and went and hit on people, the rest of the men in the room wouldn't be sat there wondering.
"Hm, does she like me?"
because they'd see "Oh, she likes him."


The guy who shot the woman? That's the kind of shit that happens when you meet lots and lots of people.
One of them is going to be crazy.
So how can women get hit on less and meet less people, thus driving down the pool of crazies?
Plenty of ways.

But no, it's men who've got to change. We have to, somehow, prevent ourselves being insane.
Got forbid women do something to better their own situation in an actually possible way though, it's easier to be completely passive and demand others change.
Because men do things and women have things done to them. And they dont want to change that.

This is all spoken like someone who has never had to deal with unwanted advances.