Detroit woman shot and killed for not giving phone number.

[Laerod]

Yep. Of course, the fact that women are subject to much higher levels of street harassment is completely unrelated. As is the knowledge that in going to a club or pub, you must anticipate being groped by men as par for the course. The fact that women are constantly told that we should police our behaviour and our clothing to avoid leading men on does not at all reinforce the mentality that led to this crime.

Of course, women should just not worry about the possibility of death because they rejected a guy. We should just be chill, because there's nothing at all in our experience to suggest that this is simply the extreme expression of our everyday experience.

Sure you can worry. A man can worry too if some random chick would jump out a bush a slit his throat because of last night.

When are the last two times this year that this has happened?

All I see is just a giant whining campaign. Yes, this was a horrible incident. Yes, the guy was a crazy dick. We know all of this, it's not like the police would have ignored this because of the backstory. No-body is saying this is justified, but thinking most men are like this and that have women have the right to punch, kick and then put his salami in a deep frier if he DARES to say a suggestive comment, at a Pub, where you willingly went to, knowing exactly that you will get those comments.

You're really not taking the time to understand the point being made.

[Scepez]

Which is why I said it was rare?
Sure that may have not happened this year and that this did happen this year, but what if it's other way around the next year?

We have at least two cases (more if you consider Rodger's was a multiple homicide) of male on female violence because of rejection. If the opposite is "as rare" then you should be able to find two cases from this year.

Check the bold print.
And whether its more common is irrelevant. That's like saying I have the right kill cats, because more people kill dogs, so it's all good!

[Laerod]

If we want to be constructive, surely improving, expanding and developing mental health services to spot, diagnose and treat these kinds of people (i.e. men and women who are in danger of reacting violently to these kinds of situations) would be better than simply panicking that any man out there might be psychotic? Schools and universities, and workplaces too, ought to have a team of people on hand who are actively ensuring the mental health of their charges is good, and if not, then these people need to quickly be able to help them. This would benefit so many people, and potentially save many lives. Instead, simply going on the whole "arrgghh, man, potential killer/rapist/creep" trip is not constructive. By that logic, one could rant on about something like "every damned woman could be out to abuse me," or "aaahh, muslim, he must be a terrorist" or "a black person, surely a criminal." All those sentiments are ridiculous, and though yes some people are those things, that does not give anyone the right to judge groups of people based on the actions of the few.

I find your suggestion that I must treat wild foxes as though they are not rabid because most aren't really disturbing.

[Nazi Flower Power]

We have at least two cases (more if you consider Rodger's was a multiple homicide) of male on female violence because of rejection. If the opposite is "as rare" then you should be able to find two cases from this year.

There needs to be a shift in mentality. For one, major proponents of male entitlement to women need to be eliminated. Not in terms of killing them mind, but the ideology needs to be stamped out. Christian complementarianism and purity balls are an example of overt claims of male entitlement. Subtler attitudes need to be tackled too, such as the discrepancy between women sleeping around being sluts and men sleeping around being players.

In this particular case, massive restrictions on firearms. But that's mostly a topic for an entirely different thread that I will not be participating in.

Overall, it's a shitton of work that everyone needs to engage in.

How would we change this attitude?

Call out the people who promote such things and tell them they are full of shit -- same as we do with racists and the like.

[Eranian Commonwealth]

The OPs argument is that this has never happened to a man before but has happened twice to a women in the last year.

She didn't say it never happens to men, she pointed out similar things continuously happen to women and we've had two cases this year that we know of where rejection has resulted in murder.

How would we change this attitude?

Good question.

And you have no answer I presume? Well look it's all well and good saying 'Look at this poor murder victim, aren't cat-callers evil?!' but it is of little use unless you can provide a rational answer to deal with it. I'm saying this as a feminist; don't complain about horrific crimes unless you have a, or you think you can develop a solution from it.

[Lordieth]

Sure you can worry. A man can worry too if some random chick would jump out a bush a slit his throat because of last night. All I see is just a giant whining campaign. Yes, this was a horrible incident. Yes, the guy was a crazy dick. We know all of this, it's not like the police would have ignored this because the backstory. No-body is saying this is justified, but thinking most men are like this and that have women have the right to punch, kick and then put his salami in a deep frier if he DARES to say a suggestive comment, at a Pub, where you willingly went to, knowing exactly that you will get those comments.

I think this is an unfortunate series of events now, where very legitimate concerns of harassment and rape and murder of women is taken to include a guy politely asking a girl for a cup of coffee in a lift...it's a shocking state of affairs when a good force such as feminism is taken and perverted into misandry.

Let's not confuse legitimate feminism with the extremist feminism, which sees men as the root of all of women's problems. Men harassing women is a serious issue, and just as we should dismiss extremist feminism, we should not dismiss sexual harassment of women.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Yep. Of course, the fact that women are subject to much higher levels of street harassment is completely unrelated. As is the knowledge that in going to a club or pub, you must anticipate being groped by men as par for the course. The fact that women are constantly told that we should police our behaviour and our clothing to avoid leading men on does not at all reinforce the mentality that led to this crime.

Of course, women should just not worry about the possibility of death because they rejected a guy. We should just be chill, because there's nothing at all in our experience to suggest that this is simply the extreme expression of our everyday experience.

Sure you can worry. A man can worry too if some random chick would jump out a bush a slit his throat because of last night. All I see is just a giant whining campaign. Yes, this was a horrible incident. Yes, the guy was a crazy dick. We know all of this, it's not like the police would have ignored this because of the backstory. No-body is saying this is justified, but thinking most men are like this and that have women have the right to punch, kick and then put his salami in a deep frier if he DARES to say a suggestive comment, at a Pub, where you willingly went to, knowing exactly that you will get those comments.

Posts like this are not going to help Jade feel better about men.

[Eranian Commonwealth]

I think this is an unfortunate series of events now, where very legitimate concerns of harassment and rape and murder of women is taken to include a guy politely asking a girl for a cup of coffee in a lift...it's a shocking state of affairs when a good force such as feminism is taken and perverted into misandry.

Let's not confuse legitimate feminism with the extremist feminism, which sees men as the root of all of women's problems. Men harassing women is a serious issue, and just as we should dismiss extremist feminism, we should not dismiss sexual harassment of women.

I know, I was saying that as a feminist.

[Laerod]

We have at least two cases (more if you consider Rodger's was a multiple homicide) of male on female violence because of rejection. If the opposite is "as rare" then you should be able to find two cases from this year.

Check the bold print.
And whether its more common is irrelevant. That's like saying I have the right kill cat's, because more people kill dogs, so it's all good!

It's not irrelevant at all. You're dismissing Saint Jade's argument based on the assertion that men are killed by women for rejecting them with a similar regularity. The context that men aren't typically harrassed in the same frequency that women are is also relevant.

[Scepez]

You're really not taking the time to understand the point being made.

Unless the her post wasn't sarcasm, I understood the point completely. If it indeed wasn't sarcasm, then she got what I was saying I would leave it at that.
And isn't the OP about a incident in Detriot turning into a "Men are evil!" slander war?

[Avaerilon]

If we want to be constructive, surely improving, expanding and developing mental health services to spot, diagnose and treat these kinds of people (i.e. men and women who are in danger of reacting violently to these kinds of situations) would be better than simply panicking that any man out there might be psychotic? Schools and universities, and workplaces too, ought to have a team of people on hand who are actively ensuring the mental health of their charges is good, and if not, then these people need to quickly be able to help them. This would benefit so many people, and potentially save many lives. Instead, simply going on the whole "arrgghh, man, potential killer/rapist/creep" trip is not constructive. By that logic, one could rant on about something like "every damned woman could be out to abuse me," or "aaahh, muslim, he must be a terrorist" or "a black person, surely a criminal." All those sentiments are ridiculous, and though yes some people are those things, that does not give anyone the right to judge groups of people based on the actions of the few.

I find your suggestion that I must treat wild foxes as though they are not rabid because most aren't really disturbing.

How an earth am I suggesting that? Furthermore, comparing men to wild foxes is just not on, mate. I'm proposing something that could spot potential killers before they act, ensure they're treated so as not to commit mass murder, and thus protect the population. What you seem to be suggesting is that all men are potential murderers unless proven otherwise. I find that offensive.

[Lordieth]

Sure you can worry. A man can worry too if some random chick would jump out a bush a slit his throat because of last night. All I see is just a giant whining campaign. Yes, this was a horrible incident. Yes, the guy was a crazy dick. We know all of this, it's not like the police would have ignored this because of the backstory. No-body is saying this is justified, but thinking most men are like this and that have women have the right to punch, kick and then put his salami in a deep frier if he DARES to say a suggestive comment, at a Pub, where you willingly went to, knowing exactly that you will get those comments.

Posts like this are not going to help Jade feel better about men.

No, they aren't, and the answer to one extreme is not the polar extreme. Both exaggerate and paint an extremely grim picture of men and women as a whole, neither of which help anybody.

[Scepez]

-snip-

Posts like this are not going to help Jade feel better about men.

Maybe it isn't.
But I'm not here to be a therapist after all. I'm simply trying to convey that making accusations because of a few incidents is wrong, and I'm sorry if it came off as too harsh.

[Eranian Commonwealth]

I swear my post just disappeared...

[Nazi Flower Power]

Posts like this are not going to help Jade feel better about men.

Maybe it isn't.
But I'm not here to be a therapist after all. I'm simply trying to convey that making accusations because of a few incidents is wrong, and I'm sorry if it came off as too harsh.

Well, when you throw in the bit about going to the pub willingly, knowing that you're going to get catcalled, that's exactly the type of attitude that Jade is denouncing. It's just really counterproductive.

[Laerod]

I find your suggestion that I must treat wild foxes as though they are not rabid because most aren't really disturbing.

How an earth am I suggesting that?

Instead, simply going on the whole "arrgghh, man, potential killer/rapist/creep" trip is not constructive.

All those sentiments are ridiculous, and though yes some people are those things, that does not give anyone the right to judge groups of people based on the actions of the few.

Apply that last one to wild animals and you get some very shitty advice for engaging with wildlife.

Furthermore, comparing men to wild foxes is just not on, mate.

Which is why no one is doing that. The comparison here is between wild foxes and men that make moves on women. And the comparison holds true here because the principle is the same: You cannot perfectly tell whether an individual is dangerous so it's best to avoid behavior that may result in injury or death in the rare case that they are.

I'm proposing something that could spot potential killers before they act, ensure they're treated so as not to commit mass murder, and thus protect the population. What you seem to be suggesting is that all men are potential murderers unless proven otherwise. I find that offensive.

That's the sad state of affairs that women find themselves in. Rather than finding the accusation offensive, you could direct your anger at those that have created the situation and those that are facilitating it. Fact is, whether we men or foxes find it offensive is utterly irrelevant.

[Scepez]

Maybe it isn't.
But I'm not here to be a therapist after all. I'm simply trying to convey that making accusations because of a few incidents is wrong, and I'm sorry if it came off as too harsh.

Well, when you throw in the bit about going to the pub willingly, knowing that you're going to get catcalled, that's exactly the type of attitude that Jade is denouncing. It's just really counterproductive.

Sadly to say it's true.
I'm going to go off and bash my own gender for a change and say most men go to those pubs to do these sort of things. Again not all do, but a decent chunk.
This kind of stuff is inevitable. I could propose a couple of women only Pubs, where they can go to if they don't want to be looked at and get any comments, but then I would be grilled with saying I want to isolate women, which I don't, but that's what I would get.

[Muckistania]

Sure they're African Americans, I wouldn't expect any better from them.

[Saint Jade IV]

Yep. Of course, the fact that women are subject to much higher levels of street harassment is completely unrelated. As is the knowledge that in going to a club or pub, you must anticipate being groped by men as par for the course. The fact that women are constantly told that we should police our behaviour and our clothing to avoid leading men on does not at all reinforce the mentality that led to this crime.

Of course, women should just not worry about the possibility of death because they rejected a guy. We should just be chill, because there's nothing at all in our experience to suggest that this is simply the extreme expression of our everyday experience.

Sure you can worry. A man can worry too if some random chick would jump out a bush a slit his throat because of last night.

Name 2 cases this year where this has happened.

All I see is just a giant whining campaign.

How terrible of me to question why this crime occurred under these circumstances and highlighting the experience of women. I'm so sorry that I apparently am whining, because I have a problem with the attitude that men are entitled to my body.

Yes, this was a horrible incident. Yes, the guy was a crazy dick.

I'm glad you see that. It's a shame you don't think it worthwhile to investigate why this particular incident was a trigger for him choosing to shoot people. I mean, the fact that earlier this year we had a man whose trigger was eerily similar go on a killing spree is in no way related. Nuh uh. They're just crazy people. Yep. Case closed.

We know all of this, it's not like the police would have ignored this because of the backstory.

Did I at any point suggest the police were ignoring it? But, since you bring police up, I do wonder if the fact that the message police so frequently give young women is to change our behaviour to avoid rapists, and "unwanted attention" by not being in public might have contributed to this man's belief that women in public were his to claim.

No-body is saying this is justified, but thinking most men are like this

Nowhere have I said this. In fact, I've been pretty clear about the fact that a majority of men do not go to these extremes.

and that have women have the right to punch, kick and then put his salami in a deep frier if he DARES to say a suggestive comment,

Women do have a right to self-defence. And there is a difference between a suggestive comment, and repeatedly badgering a woman who has made it clear she has no interest.

at a Pub, where you willingly went to, knowing exactly that you will get those comments.

And there we have it, ladies and gentlemen. How DARE women expect to be able to be in a public venue, without being harassed and sexually assaulted. I mean, really, if you are going to a public venue to socialise with your friends, it's almost the same as consenting to have random men grope and harass you.

I mean, it's cute that you think you're people, with rights and all that. But never forget, you're just our playthings. We'll tell you where you can go, and how you can behave.

Well, when you throw in the bit about going to the pub willingly, knowing that you're going to get catcalled, that's exactly the type of attitude that Jade is denouncing. It's just really counterproductive.

Sadly to say it's true.
I'm going to go off and bash my own gender for a change and say most men go to those pubs to do these sort of things. Again not all do, but a decent chunk.
This kind of stuff is inevitable. I could propose a couple of women only Pubs, where they can go to if they don't want to be looked at and get any comments, but then I would be grilled with saying I want to isolate women, which I don't, but that's what I would get.

Wouldn't it be funny if we applied the same logic to those engaging in sit-ins in the Deep South? I mean, like, if they didn't want to be assaulted and maybe murdered, they could have just sat in the Coloured section like good little n******. It's not really like those actions changed a racist mentality, or made things better for African Americans in southern states after all.

[Saint Jade IV]

Sure you can worry. A man can worry too if some random chick would jump out a bush a slit his throat because of last night. All I see is just a giant whining campaign. Yes, this was a horrible incident. Yes, the guy was a crazy dick. We know all of this, it's not like the police would have ignored this because of the backstory. No-body is saying this is justified, but thinking most men are like this and that have women have the right to punch, kick and then put his salami in a deep frier if he DARES to say a suggestive comment, at a Pub, where you willingly went to, knowing exactly that you will get those comments.

Posts like this are not going to help Jade feel better about men.

I don't need to feel better about men. Really. I know lots of decent, good men, who even treat me and other women like human beings. I have a partner who treats me like a real person, and who does not dismiss my feelings, thoughts and experiences as exaggeration or hyperbole. He doesn't get defensive when I point out why some of our female friends don't react to blatant sexism or sexual assaults like groping. He listens, and engages with me, and discusses his own perspective.

[Ostroeuropa]

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/26719319/mass-shooting-kills-mother-of-three-wounds-five-others

Men, whenever you question why we don't tell you why we aren't interested, this is why. Whenever we "lead you on", this is why.

This is why women fear men. This is why we avoid you in the street, in the club, everywhere. Because you might decide to shoot us.

I bet this woman encountered hundreds of unsolicited requests for her phone number over the years. However, it only took one pissed off guy to decide that her refusal warranted the death penalty to end her life, and leave another man without a fiancé, and 3 children without a mother.

So NSG, what say you? Is this yet another example of the way our culture believes men are entitled to women, or is this simply a tragic, crazy once-off.

Addressing men as a monolith? Gosh. How nice of you. That's not conceited at all.
I remember once a woman cheated on me, that makes all women cheating whores who I dont trust. That's cool to say and not bigoted, right?

Could you at least TRY at contain your bigotry? I hear a black guy shot someone. That's why racism against blacks is ok. We can fear them based on skin color and avoid them. It's rational, right?

[Paixao]

What the hell, OP.

Making this an "men feel entitled" thing out of one idiot's decision to go on a killing spree is not acceptable.

Should I, every time I hear of a mother killing her newborn child or shooting her husband, cry out "WOMEN ARE VIOLENT EMOTIONAL CONTROL FREAKS!!". No, because it's not true. Equally, one psychopath does not make the rest of the gender responsible and is not evidence of their feeling of entitlement.

Yes we should work towards making the world a safer place for women, by locking up men that think the sort of behavior demonstrated is acceptable, and encouraging our sons (and men in general) to respect a woman when she says "no", but to go about blaming the rest of society for the actions of individuals is pathetic.

The fact is that society is affected just as much by women's opinion's as men, so when people insist that men are to blame for this and that, they're wrong. Either we're all to blame or none of us are to blame, individually, because we are a society. Our society is wrong, not "men".

[Saint Jade IV]

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/26719319/mass-shooting-kills-mother-of-three-wounds-five-others

Men, whenever you question why we don't tell you why we aren't interested, this is why. Whenever we "lead you on", this is why.

This is why women fear men. This is why we avoid you in the street, in the club, everywhere. Because you might decide to shoot us.

I bet this woman encountered hundreds of unsolicited requests for her phone number over the years. However, it only took one pissed off guy to decide that her refusal warranted the death penalty to end her life, and leave another man without a fiancé, and 3 children without a mother.

So NSG, what say you? Is this yet another example of the way our culture believes men are entitled to women, or is this simply a tragic, crazy once-off.

Addressing men as a monolith? Gosh. How nice of you. That's not conceited at all.
I remember once a woman cheated on me, that makes all women cheating whores who I dont trust. That's cool to say and not bigoted, right?

Could you at least TRY at contain your bigotry?

Well now we know what explains your misogyny.

[Wickedly evil people]

what a completely absurd ignorant premise.

[Ravenflight]

What I think? 0.0 i'm equalist, just wanted to point this out before saying anything. Right so from what I saw from a quick scim someone got shot because she didn't give her phone number to some guy. That doesn' mean every sing man on the planet is like that, 1 in 3.5 billionish...leading a guy on is just annoying and that's it, she shouldn't have been shot but you(OP) can't say all men are like that and you need to change