Detroit woman shot and killed for not giving phone number.

[Saint Jade IV]

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/26719319/mass-shooting-kills-mother-of-three-wounds-five-others

Men, whenever you question why we don't tell you why we aren't interested, this is why. Whenever we "lead you on", this is why.

This is why women fear men. This is why we avoid you in the street, in the club, everywhere. Because you might decide to shoot us.

I bet this woman encountered hundreds of unsolicited requests for her phone number over the years. However, it only took one pissed off guy to decide that her refusal warranted the death penalty to end her life, and leave another man without a fiancé, and 3 children without a mother.

So NSG, what say you? Is this yet another example of the way our culture believes men are entitled to women, or is this simply a tragic, crazy once-off.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

Ultimately, telephones are to blame.

[Avaerilon]

Er, OP, surely you realise this is a very isolated incident? It's awful someone was killed over something so trivial as it appears, but this kind of thing is not something that happens every minute of every day. Please don't tarnish all of us (men) with the same brush; you're in danger of implying that from your post. And also, I doubt very much society (certainly in the western world) is "entitled" towards men in every single way; there are plenty of examples where it is "entitled" towards women.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

Er, OP, surely you realise this is a very isolated incident? It's awful someone was killed over something so trivial as it appears, but this kind of thing is not something that happens every minute of every day. Please don't tarnish all of us (men) with the same brush; you're in danger of implying that from your post.

Not tarnish. Tar. Tar people with the same brush. I like tarring people, but I use a different brush every time.

[Saint Jade IV]

Er, OP, surely you realise this is a very isolated incident? It's awful someone was killed over something so trivial as it appears, but this kind of thing is not something that happens every minute of every day. Please don't tarnish all of us (men) with the same brush; you're in danger of implying that from your post.

Elliot Rodger.

I'm not suggesting that these aren't extremes. However, the mentality that precedes this is prevalent, and dangerous.

[The Grey Wolf]

Er, OP, surely you realise this is a very isolated incident? It's awful someone was killed over something so trivial as it appears, but this kind of thing is not something that happens every minute of every day. Please don't tarnish all of us (men) with the same brush; you're in danger of implying that from your post.

"Danger of implying?" She straight out says it.

[Saint Jade IV]

Er, OP, surely you realise this is a very isolated incident? It's awful someone was killed over something so trivial as it appears, but this kind of thing is not something that happens every minute of every day. Please don't tarnish all of us (men) with the same brush; you're in danger of implying that from your post.

"Danger of implying?" She straight out says it.

Please, show me where I say that. Please, I'm begging you.

[Laerod]

Er, OP, surely you realise this is a very isolated incident? It's awful someone was killed over something so trivial as it appears, but this kind of thing is not something that happens every minute of every day. Please don't tarnish all of us (men) with the same brush; you're in danger of implying that from your post.

Is it now?

[Faschist Deutsch Reich]

*Looks at title and sees Detroit*
*Thinks to himself that this is nothing new*

I think the OP is a little harsh on us men TBH. Most of us aren't going to act like this, but I could be wrong.

[Lordieth]

Is this yet another example of the way our culture believes men are entitled to women, or is this simply a tragic, crazy once-off.

Or perhaps;

Is this yet another example of the way one man believes he is entitled to women, or is this simply a tragic, crazy once-off.

Fixed that for you. Only takes one crazy misogynist with a weapon. You could broadly suggest this is a result of male entitlement, but I don't see any evidence of that here.

Yes if you are anti-gun, you could argue if he didn't have a gun, he wouldn't have shot her, but his intent was to kill. He shot her two more times as she was fleeing. I don't much like guns, but in this instance, the man was a killer. Gun or no gun.

Edit: included original quotation in case it's taken out of context.

[The Grey Wolf]

"Danger of implying?" She straight out says it.

Please, show me where I say that. Please, I'm begging you.

Men, whenever you question why we don't tell you why we aren't interested, this is why. Whenever we "lead you on", this is why.

This is why women fear men. This is why we avoid you in the street, in the club, everywhere. Because you might decide to shoot us.

[Saint Jade IV]

Is this yet another example of the way one man believes he is entitled to women, or is this simply a tragic, crazy once-off.

Fixed that for you. Only only takes one crazy misogynist with a weapon.

Yes, you could argue if he didn't have a gun, he wouldn't have shot her, but his intent was to kill. He shot her two more times as she was fleeing.

I make no argument with regard to gun rights. But while this is extreme, I in no way think that the mentality behind it is manifest in a few deranged individuals. It's inherent in every guy who called me a fucking slut for rejecting him at a bar. It's inherent in every guy that yelled disgusting things out at me walking down the street. It's inherent in every guy who feels it his right to grab my arse in a pub or club, even while I'm holding my boyfriend's hand. It's inherent in every guy who accused a girl of "friend zoning" him, or "leading him on".

It's the idea that women are something that men are entitled to. That the world is a smorgasbord of pussy and any woman who is in public is clearly desperate for the attention of any male who deigns to bestow it on her, and should take it in any form it comes in.

[Laerod]

*Looks at title and sees Detroit*
*Thinks to himself that this is nothing new*

I think the OP is a little harsh on us men TBH. Most of us aren't going to act like this, but I could be wrong.

That's the second case of murder because of rejection that we've heard of this year. That's discounting all the unreported cases that amount to "nothing more" than verbal abuse. The OP is utterly correct in pointing out that "he might murder me if I reject him outright" is a legitimate concern because there's no way to tell if the guy asking is that one guy out of a larger statistical number that will murder her. It's like when I come across foxes; I have to treat them as though they have rabies even if none of them do because the consequences of not doing so are just too great if you end up being wrong.

[Laerod]

Please, show me where I say that. Please, I'm begging you.

Men, whenever you question why we don't tell you why we aren't interested, this is why. Whenever we "lead you on", this is why.

This is why women fear men. This is why we avoid you in the street, in the club, everywhere. Because you might decide to shoot us.

How'd you read "all men" when it says "might"?

[Saint Jade IV]

Please, show me where I say that. Please, I'm begging you.

Men, whenever you question why we don't tell you why we aren't interested, this is why. Whenever we "lead you on", this is why.

This is why women fear men. This is why we avoid you in the street, in the club, everywhere. Because you might decide to shoot us.

So, we are supposed to intrinsically know that YOU are not the guy who's going to shoot us, right? Through our psychic mind reading abilities? You're suggesting that we aren't supposed to consider, after incidents like this and the Isla Vista shootings, that a man who approaches us unsolicited, may in fact, be a deranged psycho who shoots us for our transgressions?

I did not at any point say that all men would do this. However, incidents like this clearly demonstrate that there are men out there who may choose to enforce the death penalty. And we have NO way of determining if YOU are that guy.

[Idzequitch]

There's no sense in trying to blame the male gender as a whole for the actions of one man. This is an absolutely tragic event, and the fact that anyone feels that they have the right to treat anyone that way is shameful, but that hardly means all men would have treated the woman the same way.

Could some men use a refresher course in respecting women? Yes. Are all men vicious predators who want women to obey their every wish? Not even close.

[Laerod]

There's no sense in trying to blame the male gender as a whole for the actions of one man. This is an absolutely tragic event, and the fact that anyone feels that they have the right to treat anyone that way is shameful, but that hardly means all men would have treated the woman the same way.

Could some men use a refresher course in respecting women? Yes. Are all men vicious predators who want women to obey their every wish? Not even close.

That's not the argument presented in the OP.

[The Grey Wolf]

*Looks at title and sees Detroit*
*Thinks to himself that this is nothing new*

I think the OP is a little harsh on us men TBH. Most of us aren't going to act like this, but I could be wrong.

That's the second case of murder because of rejection that we've heard of this year. That's discounting all the unreported cases that amount to "nothing more" than verbal abuse. The OP is utterly correct in pointing out that "he might murder me if I reject him outright" is a legitimate concern because there's no way to tell if the guy asking is that one guy out of a larger statistical number that will murder her. It's like when I come across foxes; I have to treat them as though they have rabies even if none of them do because the consequences of not doing so are just too great if you end up being wrong.

Not to turn this into one of those threads, but doesn't this mean that women should possess firearms? Even if this guy only had a knife, it could have ended up in a gory story.

[Saint Jade IV]

There's no sense in trying to blame the male gender as a whole for the actions of one man. This is an absolutely tragic event, and the fact that anyone feels that they have the right to treat anyone that way is shameful, but that hardly means all men would have treated the woman the same way.

Could some men use a refresher course in respecting women? Yes. Are all men vicious predators who want women to obey their every wish? Not even close.

That's not the argument presented in the OP.

I'm really pleased that I'm not being unclear in any way.

[Lordieth]

Fixed that for you. Only only takes one crazy misogynist with a weapon.

Yes, you could argue if he didn't have a gun, he wouldn't have shot her, but his intent was to kill. He shot her two more times as she was fleeing.

I make no argument with regard to gun rights. But while this is extreme, I in no way think that the mentality behind it is manifest in a few deranged individuals. It's inherent in every guy who called me a fucking slut for rejecting him at a bar. It's inherent in every guy that yelled disgusting things out at me walking down the street. It's inherent in every guy who feels it his right to grab my arse in a pub or club, even while I'm holding my boyfriend's hand. It's inherent in every guy who accused a girl of "friend zoning" him, or "leading him on".

It's the idea that women are something that men are entitled to. That the world is a smorgasbord of pussy and any woman who is in public is clearly desperate for the attention of any male who deigns to bestow it on her, and should take it in any form it comes in.

So every self-entitled misogynist who thinks he can cat-call or act inappropriately is a potential killer, is that what you're suggesting? You make a perfectly valid point about a particular subset of men, but you are conflating two things here; killers, and men who treat women like objects. This man happened to be both. He shot her because he's a killer. He grabbed and harassed her because he's a self-entitled sexual harasser. He didn't shoot her because he's a sexual harasser. Given that her hit her, clearly the man was violent, and not all men who are pigs are violent.

That's not to make light of the issue of men treating women this way, but we should be careful not to tar too broadly with the brush.

[Avaerilon]

Er, OP, surely you realise this is a very isolated incident? It's awful someone was killed over something so trivial as it appears, but this kind of thing is not something that happens every minute of every day. Please don't tarnish all of us (men) with the same brush; you're in danger of implying that from your post.

Not tarnish. Tar. Tar people with the same brush. I like tarring people, but I use a different brush every time.

Whoops! That's what I get for not having my coffee this morning

Is it now?

That spree had more to do with poor mental health than misogyny; the fact he killed more men (and did so much more intimately by stabbing them) is also notable. His "manifesto," I'm sure most psychiatric doctors would agree, appears simply to be him venting recent frustrations, though it could also be he developed a hatred towards women. However, people with poor mental health hardly justify the argument that all men everywhere are out to harm women- that argument is misandric and incorrect.

[Laerod]

That's the second case of murder because of rejection that we've heard of this year. That's discounting all the unreported cases that amount to "nothing more" than verbal abuse. The OP is utterly correct in pointing out that "he might murder me if I reject him outright" is a legitimate concern because there's no way to tell if the guy asking is that one guy out of a larger statistical number that will murder her. It's like when I come across foxes; I have to treat them as though they have rabies even if none of them do because the consequences of not doing so are just too great if you end up being wrong.

Not to turn this into one of those threads, but doesn't this mean that women should possess firearms? Even if this guy only had a knife, it could have ended up in a gory story.

No. Your argument is essentially that the onus on preventing terrible things from happening is on the women that they happen to rather than on the people doing the terrible things. The problem with such arguments is twofold: First, the blame is shifted to the victim rather than the perpetrator. Secondly, the perpetrator is dehumanized and the person making the argument is less likely to reflect on circumstances where they might find themselves in the shoes of the perpetrator.

[Idzequitch]

There's no sense in trying to blame the male gender as a whole for the actions of one man. This is an absolutely tragic event, and the fact that anyone feels that they have the right to treat anyone that way is shameful, but that hardly means all men would have treated the woman the same way.

Could some men use a refresher course in respecting women? Yes. Are all men vicious predators who want women to obey their every wish? Not even close.

That's not the argument presented in the OP.

So NSG, what say you? Is this yet another example of the way our culture believes men are entitled to women,

Merely answering the question. Neither the majority of men, nor culture, believe that men are in anyway entitled to women. There are isolated incidents, such as this one, but in general, society need not be worried about these "entitled men."

[Saint Jade IV]

That's the second case of murder because of rejection that we've heard of this year. That's discounting all the unreported cases that amount to "nothing more" than verbal abuse. The OP is utterly correct in pointing out that "he might murder me if I reject him outright" is a legitimate concern because there's no way to tell if the guy asking is that one guy out of a larger statistical number that will murder her. It's like when I come across foxes; I have to treat them as though they have rabies even if none of them do because the consequences of not doing so are just too great if you end up being wrong.

Not to turn this into one of those threads, but doesn't this mean that women should possess firearms? Even if this guy only had a knife, it could have ended up in a gory story.

So if a woman doesn't possess firearms, does that mean she is negligent? And what level of firearm should she possess? How many hours at the shooting range does she need to put in? A firearm is quite useless without the ability to shoot accurately. Not all people, let alone all women, have the hand-eye coordination to do that.

Furthermore, the onus should not be on women to protect themselves. The onus should be on society to ensure that we can be in public spaces, without fear of harassment, or death, or assault, or sexual assault. And the onus should further be on society to confront the attitudes which lead to crimes like this head on, and implement ways to change it.

[Laerod]

Is it now?

That spree had more to do with poor mental health than misogyny; the fact he killed more men (and did so much more intimately by stabbing them) is also notable. His "manifesto," I'm sure most psychiatric doctors would agree, appears simply to be him venting recent frustrations, though it could also be he developed a hatred towards women. However, people with poor mental health hardly justify the argument that all men everywhere are out to harm women- that argument is misandric and incorrect.

The actions he took were directly motivated by his frustrations of being rejected. Him stabbing men in addition to shooting women in no way contradicts that, nor does it disprove the notion that rejected men occasionally murder people.