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Is Marriage an out dated institution?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Your Opinion on the Institution of Marriage

The Decline of Marriage shows the moral decay happening in America
84
18%
The Decline of Marriage shows how far we've come from the traditionalism of the past
61
13%
Society is better off when more people are married
93
19%
Society is better off when less people are married
19
4%
Marriage rates reflect neither positively of negatively on a society
90
19%
The Decline of Marriage is ultimately a good thing
34
7%
The Decline of Marriage is ultimately a bad thing
81
17%
Other
15
3%
 
Total votes : 477

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Mavorpen
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Posts: 63266
Founded: Dec 20, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mavorpen » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:23 am

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:If there ever was evidence that he isn't paying that much attention...this would be it.


I was. The benefits listed.. they.. well.. benefit the married basically, not society as a whole.

Because married couples live in a vacuum and have no effect on society as a whole.

Yeah seems legit.

Edit: damn cats ninja-ing me.
Last edited by Mavorpen on Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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DnalweN acilbupeR
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Founded: Aug 23, 2013
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Postby DnalweN acilbupeR » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:23 am

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:
Enfaru wrote:Marriage as it is commonly seen has no place in society anymore, but that's not to deny its application. The creation of family units, is remarkably useful but in many cases due to economic situations, the state provides where the family cannot, thereby increasing efficiency but declining quality.

The largest rise in married couples is actually from the homosexual/other community, which is a sign of how marriage and family units are evolving. One man and One woman is required to create children, but not to look after or raise children and slowly society will come to accept that.

Marriage as it was previously known then, will become extinguished but it will evolve in what we understand as a social contract, where relationships are brought together to create stable and productive atmospheres for children and other family members to develop regardless if they are male or female or even blood related. That is a fantastic thing and should be applauded that the Human Race adapts to cater for the human race as a whole rather than individual lines of genes and therefore promotes faster evolution.

Gay marriage, even though technically a dead end is paradoxically the way forwards for human evolution a stepping stone to the next phase of our development as a race.

w h a t


that guy knows lel
The Emerald Dawn wrote:I award you no points, and have sent people to make sure your parents refrain from further breeding.
Lyttenburgh wrote:all this is a damning enough evidence to proove you of being an edgy butthurt 'murican teenager with the sole agenda of prooving to the uncaring bitch Web, that "You Have A Point!"
Lyttenburgh wrote:Either that, or, you were gang-raped by commi-nazi russian Spetznaz kill team, who then painted all walls in your house in hammer and sickles, and then viped their asses with the stars and stripes banner in your yard. That's the only logical explanation.

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Soldati Senza Confini
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Posts: 86050
Founded: Mar 11, 2013
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:23 am

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:
Enfaru wrote:Marriage as it is commonly seen has no place in society anymore, but that's not to deny its application. The creation of family units, is remarkably useful but in many cases due to economic situations, the state provides where the family cannot, thereby increasing efficiency but declining quality.

The largest rise in married couples is actually from the homosexual/other community, which is a sign of how marriage and family units are evolving. One man and One woman is required to create children, but not to look after or raise children and slowly society will come to accept that.

Marriage as it was previously known then, will become extinguished but it will evolve in what we understand as a social contract, where relationships are brought together to create stable and productive atmospheres for children and other family members to develop regardless if they are male or female or even blood related. That is a fantastic thing and should be applauded that the Human Race adapts to cater for the human race as a whole rather than individual lines of genes and therefore promotes faster evolution.

Gay marriage, even though technically a dead end is paradoxically the way forwards for human evolution a stepping stone to the next phase of our development as a race.

w h a t


:rofl:

I laughed because I have the same reaction.

Gay marriage is the next step of human evolution... seriously?!
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Stagnant Axon Terminal
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Founded: Feb 24, 2014
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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:25 am

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:w h a t


:rofl:

I laughed because I have the same reaction.

Gay marriage is the next step of human evolution... seriously?!

Like all I can think of is like a family factory right now
TET's resident state assessment exam
My sworn enemy is the Toyota 4Runner
I scream a lot.
Also, I'm gonna fuck your girlfriend.
Nanatsu No Tsuki wrote:the fetus will never eat cake if you abort it

Cu Math wrote:Axon is like a bear with a PH.D. She debates at first, then eats your face.
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:THE MAN'S PENIS HAS LEFT THE VAGINA. IT'S THE UTERUS'S TURN TO SHINE.

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Mavorpen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 63266
Founded: Dec 20, 2011
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Postby Mavorpen » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:25 am

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:w h a t


:rofl:

I laughed because I have the same reaction.

Gay marriage is the next step of human evolution... seriously?!

He's like the Magneto of the real world...but for gay people.
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Soldati Senza Confini
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Posts: 86050
Founded: Mar 11, 2013
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:25 am

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:
I was. The benefits listed.. they.. well.. benefit the married basically, not society as a whole.


Sure, because a marriage exists in a vacuum. There's no way the marriage can, with these benefits and protections under law, benefit society. Not at all. :roll:


Don't you know, married people exist in their own extravagant societies. What with their fancy cars, and houses, you guys are making us look like poor people! :p
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Posts: 204036
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:25 am

Mavorpen wrote:
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:
I was. The benefits listed.. they.. well.. benefit the married basically, not society as a whole.

Because married couples live in a vacuum and have no effect on society as a whole.

Yeah seems legit.

Edit: damn cats ninja-ing me.


Mind meld. Jo!
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
RIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Posts: 204036
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:27 am

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Sure, because a marriage exists in a vacuum. There's no way the marriage can, with these benefits and protections under law, benefit society. Not at all. :roll:


Don't you know, married people exist in their own extravagant societies. What with their fancy cars, and houses, you guys are making us look like poor people! :p


It seems we exist in Looking Glass country. Seriously. Our contributions, monetarily and through the work force, do not benefit society. Like, cha.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
RIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria

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DnalweN acilbupeR
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7409
Founded: Aug 23, 2013
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Postby DnalweN acilbupeR » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:28 am

well if we can't get rid of it then perhaps we can at least democratize it even more. if you can't beat them, join them :lol2:

perhaps the next step is legalizing polygamous marriages where they're not yet legal
The Emerald Dawn wrote:I award you no points, and have sent people to make sure your parents refrain from further breeding.
Lyttenburgh wrote:all this is a damning enough evidence to proove you of being an edgy butthurt 'murican teenager with the sole agenda of prooving to the uncaring bitch Web, that "You Have A Point!"
Lyttenburgh wrote:Either that, or, you were gang-raped by commi-nazi russian Spetznaz kill team, who then painted all walls in your house in hammer and sickles, and then viped their asses with the stars and stripes banner in your yard. That's the only logical explanation.

User avatar
Mavorpen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 63266
Founded: Dec 20, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mavorpen » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:28 am

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:Because married couples live in a vacuum and have no effect on society as a whole.

Yeah seems legit.

Edit: damn cats ninja-ing me.


Mind meld. Jo!

Let's do that as sparingly as possible. I don't think I want to know what you're thinking all the time. :p
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

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Stagnant Axon Terminal
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Posts: 16621
Founded: Feb 24, 2014
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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:29 am

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:well if we can't get rid of it then perhaps we can at least democratize it even more. if you can't beat them, join them :lol2:

perhaps the next step is legalizing polygamous marriages where they're not yet legal

Polyamorous marriages should definitely be legal
TET's resident state assessment exam
My sworn enemy is the Toyota 4Runner
I scream a lot.
Also, I'm gonna fuck your girlfriend.
Nanatsu No Tsuki wrote:the fetus will never eat cake if you abort it

Cu Math wrote:Axon is like a bear with a PH.D. She debates at first, then eats your face.
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:THE MAN'S PENIS HAS LEFT THE VAGINA. IT'S THE UTERUS'S TURN TO SHINE.

User avatar
Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
Posts: 204036
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:29 am

Mavorpen wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Mind meld. Jo!

Let's do that as sparingly as possible. I don't think I want to know what you're thinking all the time. :p


Cats, books, cats, music, cats, husband, cats, husband, cats, sleep, and did I mention cats? Yes. Cats. :p
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
RIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria

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Neutraligon
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Posts: 42381
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:30 am

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:well if we can't get rid of it then perhaps we can at least democratize it even more. if you can't beat them, join them :lol2:

perhaps the next step is legalizing polygamous marriages where they're not yet legal


I have no issue legalizing polyamorous marriage. The thing is marriage right now is set up as a union between two people, and there would need to be drastic changes to allow for marriage between more people. For instance in a polygamous marriage, is everyone married to everyone else? how are assets shared? who has custody rights over the children? how does inheritance work? And so on.
Last edited by Neutraligon on Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you want to call me by a nickname, call me Gon...or NS Batman.
Mod stuff: One Stop Rules Shop | Reppy's Sig Workshop | Getting Help Request
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Soldati Senza Confini
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Founded: Mar 11, 2013
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:30 am

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:well if we can't get rid of it then perhaps we can at least democratize it even more. if you can't beat them, join them :lol2:

perhaps the next step is legalizing polygamous marriages where they're not yet legal


Why not?
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

User avatar
Stagnant Axon Terminal
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16621
Founded: Feb 24, 2014
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Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:30 am

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:Let's do that as sparingly as possible. I don't think I want to know what you're thinking all the time. :p


Cats, books, cats, music, cats, husband, cats, husband, cats, sleep, and did I mention cats? Yes. Cats. :p

Damn, Nana, stop thinking about pussy so much
TET's resident state assessment exam
My sworn enemy is the Toyota 4Runner
I scream a lot.
Also, I'm gonna fuck your girlfriend.
Nanatsu No Tsuki wrote:the fetus will never eat cake if you abort it

Cu Math wrote:Axon is like a bear with a PH.D. She debates at first, then eats your face.
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:THE MAN'S PENIS HAS LEFT THE VAGINA. IT'S THE UTERUS'S TURN TO SHINE.

User avatar
Neutraligon
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 42381
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:31 am

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Cats, books, cats, music, cats, husband, cats, husband, cats, sleep, and did I mention cats? Yes. Cats. :p

Damn, Nana, stop thinking about pussy so much


I hate you, you made me spit out my chai.
If you want to call me by a nickname, call me Gon...or NS Batman.
Mod stuff: One Stop Rules Shop | Reppy's Sig Workshop | Getting Help Request
Just A Little though

User avatar
Soldati Senza Confini
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 86050
Founded: Mar 11, 2013
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:31 am

Neutraligon wrote:
Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:Damn, Nana, stop thinking about pussy so much


I hate you, you made me spit out my chai.


:rofl: :hug:
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

User avatar
Mavorpen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 63266
Founded: Dec 20, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Mavorpen » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:31 am

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Mavorpen wrote:Let's do that as sparingly as possible. I don't think I want to know what you're thinking all the time. :p


Cats, books, cats, music, cats, husband, cats, husband, cats, sleep, and did I mention cats? Yes. Cats. :p

Damn, poor Gallo. :p
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."—former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman

User avatar
Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
Posts: 204036
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:31 am

Neutraligon wrote:
DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:well if we can't get rid of it then perhaps we can at least democratize it even more. if you can't beat them, join them :lol2:

perhaps the next step is legalizing polygamous marriages where they're not yet legal


I have no issue legalizing polygamous marriage. The thing is marriage right now is set up as a union between two people, and there would need to be drastic changes to allow for marriage between more people. For instance in a polygamous marriage, is everyone married to everyone else? how are assets shared? who has custody rights over the children? how does inheritance work? And so on.


It can be done. But we would need to rewrite several laws and rewrite our tax codes. As of now, I don't know how to exactly go about it. I've seen the suggestion of making these unions similar to a corporation.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
RIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria

User avatar
Soldati Senza Confini
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 86050
Founded: Mar 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:32 am

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:
I have no issue legalizing polygamous marriage. The thing is marriage right now is set up as a union between two people, and there would need to be drastic changes to allow for marriage between more people. For instance in a polygamous marriage, is everyone married to everyone else? how are assets shared? who has custody rights over the children? how does inheritance work? And so on.


It can be done. But we would need to rewrite several laws and rewrite our tax codes. As of now, I don't know how to exactly go about it. I've seen the suggestion of making these unions similar to a corporation.


And have them do quarterly tax returns?

Gallo would have a field trip with that.
Soldati senza confini: Better than an iPod in shuffle more with 20,000 songs.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

User avatar
Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
Posts: 204036
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:32 am

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Cats, books, cats, music, cats, husband, cats, husband, cats, sleep, and did I mention cats? Yes. Cats. :p

Damn, Nana, stop thinking about pussy so much


You made me laugh and that made my sore throat more scratchy. Evil woman!
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
RIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria

User avatar
Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
Posts: 204036
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:34 am

Soldati senza confini wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
It can be done. But we would need to rewrite several laws and rewrite our tax codes. As of now, I don't know how to exactly go about it. I've seen the suggestion of making these unions similar to a corporation.


And have them do quarterly tax returns?

Gallo would have a field trip with that.


Honestly, I wouldn't know how that would work. I've just seen it suggested as a guide for polygamous marriages.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
RIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria

User avatar
Stagnant Axon Terminal
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16621
Founded: Feb 24, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Stagnant Axon Terminal » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:34 am

Neutraligon wrote:
Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:Damn, Nana, stop thinking about pussy so much


I hate you, you made me spit out my chai.

Blame that perverse woman over there. I mean first of all she clearly not a virgin. She's married for god's sake. And her avatar is a SEXUAL WOMAN in LATEX with CAT EARS... And her username! Nanat-you go TouchMe. And you want to blame ME!
TET's resident state assessment exam
My sworn enemy is the Toyota 4Runner
I scream a lot.
Also, I'm gonna fuck your girlfriend.
Nanatsu No Tsuki wrote:the fetus will never eat cake if you abort it

Cu Math wrote:Axon is like a bear with a PH.D. She debates at first, then eats your face.
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:THE MAN'S PENIS HAS LEFT THE VAGINA. IT'S THE UTERUS'S TURN TO SHINE.

User avatar
Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
Posts: 204036
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:34 am

Mavorpen wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Cats, books, cats, music, cats, husband, cats, husband, cats, sleep, and did I mention cats? Yes. Cats. :p

Damn, poor Gallo. :p


Order changes depending on day and mood. But I digress. :p
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
RIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria

User avatar
Nanatsu no Tsuki
Post-Apocalypse Survivor
 
Posts: 204036
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:35 am

Stagnant Axon Terminal wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:
I hate you, you made me spit out my chai.

Blame that perverse woman over there. I mean first of all she clearly not a virgin. She's married for god's sake. And her avatar is a SEXUAL WOMAN in LATEX with CAT EARS... And her username! Nanat-you go TouchMe. And you want to blame ME!


And proud of it.
Slava Ukraini
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
RIP: Dyakovo & Ashmoria

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