RESOLVED: Atheist Airman Allowed To Modify Oath

[Imperializt Russia]

You're arguing with a poster with Ken Ham as his flag.

Valid point, Australia's worst export

Dude.

Fosters.

[Tekania]

It was not changed by the whims of "judicial activists" it was changed by the addition of the 14th amendment and the application and effect of that upon laws.

Much as how blacks no longer being 3/5ths a person was not a change by judicial activists, but by the addition of the 14th amendment and the application and effect of that upon laws.

You're arguing with a poster with Ken Ham as his flag.

No I'm not, I'm stating facts back to a poster with Ken Ham in his flag. I've no interest in attempting to persuade them of anything, as they have Ken Ham in their flag. Merely stuff for the record. I've no interest in taking up the hobby of bashing my head into brick walls.

[Forster Keys]

Valid point, Australia's worst export

Dude.

Fosters.

Never drank Foster's and I barely even see it. We have to get rid of our faulty batches somehow I suppose.

[Forster Keys]

You're arguing with a poster with Ken Ham as his flag.

Valid point, Australia's worst export

Worth noting that even in Scouts, one can run into this issue, my father is a strong atheist (with the exception of his acknowledgement of "Huey" and the Dark Wanderer) when he was going through the process of becoming a scout leader. They were actually shocked that he put a simple "N/A" in the religion section and they hounded him for ages about it, asking for a recognised religion to be put, even atheist didn't cut it

Though I don't think I had the same issue with the ADF, can't seem to remember any issues, they've really progressed over the past 40 years

The ADF tends to be surprisingly progressive in some parts.

[Dewhurst-Narculis]

Valid point, Australia's worst export

Dude.

Fosters.

Hopefully James Squire beer makes it way overseas to make up for both bad products

[Yumyumsuppertime]

You're arguing with a poster with Ken Ham as his flag.

I'm not intimidated in the slightest.

Who is trying to intimidate you?

[Stormwind-City]

I'm not intimidated in the slightest.

Who is trying to intimidate you?

Bill Nye.

[Tekania]

It was not changed by the whims of "judicial activists" it was changed by the addition of the 14th amendment and the application and effect of that upon laws.

Much as how blacks no longer being 3/5ths a person was not a change by judicial activists, but by the addition of the 14th amendment and the application and effect of that upon laws.

I fail to understand why we need to fall back on racism and slavery every time we talk about American history. Why do we need to dispute every solid historical fact?

The 14th Amendment simply forces states to recognize the fact that Congress is not allowed to establish or respect an establishment of religion. No law or constitutional amendment says that states or localities may not establish a religion or respect an establishment thereof. That being said, your argument is invalid.

Now I almost feel bad saying that in such a harsh manner, because I see you are a veteran. So I do thank you for your service to our great Christian nation, the USA.

I'm not falling back to anything. I'm noting facts of things which are altered in the text of the constitution by subsequent addendum known as "Amendments" which change the effect or applicability of previous texts. Happens all the time. We have made many of them over the years. The consideration of blacks as 3/5ths a person just an example of one of those spots that still exists in the texts, but is subsequently altered by additions.

Of course, the real application in question here has little to do with any of this, or separation or what not. The optionality of God" portion of the swear is not brought about by any amendment, but by the original text itself in the prohibition of religious tests upon those to hold public offices or trusts. That is why the term has been and remains optional as a matter of legal course in administration of oaths by the government for people taking on an office. You simply cannot require someone to meet a religious criteria (including expressed belief in a diety) for the purpose of holding an office or position in government. It's not constitutional even if you struck the first amendment.

[California Prime]

I'm not falling back to anything. I'm noting facts of things which are altered in the text of the constitution by subsequent addendum known as "Amendments" which change the effect or applicability of previous texts. Happens all the time. We have made many of them over the years. The consideration of blacks as 3/5ths a person just an example of one of those spots that still exists in the texts, but is subsequently altered by additions.

Of course, the real application in question here has little to do with any of this, or separation or what not. The optionality of God" portion of the swear is not brought about by any amendment, but by the original text itself in the prohibition of religious tests upon those to hold public offices or trusts. That is why the term has been and remains optional as a matter of legal course in administration of oaths by the government for people taking on an office. You simply cannot require someone to meet a religious criteria (including expressed belief in a diety) for the purpose of holding an office or position in government. It's not constitutional even if you struck the first amendment.

This is exactly 100% true, outstanding post.

[Salandriagado]

You're arguing with a poster with Ken Ham as his flag.

Valid point, Australia's worst export

Worth noting that even in Scouts, one can run into this issue, my father is a strong atheist (with the exception of his acknowledgement of "Huey" and the Dark Wanderer) when he was going through the process of becoming a scout leader. They were actually shocked that he put a simple "N/A" in the religion section and they hounded him for ages about it, asking for a recognised religion to be put, even atheist didn't cut it

Though I don't think I had the same issue with the ADF, can't seem to remember any issues, they've really progressed over the past 40 years

Yeah, the BSA is basically the crazy cousin the rest of the scouting world would rather not talk about.

[Dewhurst-Narculis]

Valid point, Australia's worst export

Worth noting that even in Scouts, one can run into this issue, my father is a strong atheist (with the exception of his acknowledgement of "Huey" and the Dark Wanderer) when he was going through the process of becoming a scout leader. They were actually shocked that he put a simple "N/A" in the religion section and they hounded him for ages about it, asking for a recognised religion to be put, even atheist didn't cut it

Though I don't think I had the same issue with the ADF, can't seem to remember any issues, they've really progressed over the past 40 years

Yeah, the BSA is basically the crazy cousin the rest of the scouting world would rather not talk about.

Oh no, I was talking about the Australian scouts, despite trying to be progressive, there are some little corners of the organisation that even the BSA would find backwards

[Freiheit Reich]

Stop making a stand and say God's name. He is making a big stink over the fact he just has to endure 2 seconds of mental pain. I would say the words because they are meaningless to me.

In the military, enlisted men are paid to do, not think. Officers are paid to think. That is a reason I had low respect for my job in the military and got out. He wants to reenlist so he should understand by now his role is to obey orders, even when they are stupid. Say the words and stop being a baby!

[Imperializt Russia]

Stop making a stand and say God's name. He is making a big stink over the fact he just has to endure 2 seconds of mental pain. I would say the words because they are meaningless to me.

In the military, enlisted men are paid to do, not think. Officers are paid to think. That is a reason I had low respect for my job in the military and got out. He wants to reenlist so he should understand by now his role is to obey orders, even when they are stupid. Say the words and stop being a baby!

If you believe the words of the oath you are reciting have no meaning... why bother with the oath at all.

[Fartsniffage]

Stop making a stand and say God's name. He is making a big stink over the fact he just has to endure 2 seconds of mental pain. I would say the words because they are meaningless to me.

In the military, enlisted men are paid to do, not think. Officers are paid to think. That is a reason I had low respect for my job in the military and got out. He wants to reenlist so he should understand by now his role is to obey orders, even when they are stupid. Say the words and stop being a baby!

If you were in the military then you know that it is the responsibility of every member of the armed forces to disobey an illegal order.

[Lemanrussland]

Stop making a stand and say God's name. He is making a big stink over the fact he just has to endure 2 seconds of mental pain. I would say the words because they are meaningless to me.

In the military, enlisted men are paid to do, not think. Officers are paid to think. That is a reason I had low respect for my job in the military and got out. He wants to reenlist so he should understand by now his role is to obey orders, even when they are stupid. Say the words and stop being a baby!

This kind of attitude leads to all sorts of problems.

First, enlisted do have to think, they need to understand their mission, their role in the mission, have to be able to work as a team and so on (yes, even if they are a non-combat MOS) in order to be effective. They're not brainless meatshields under the remote control of a couple of 2nd Lieutenants straight out of college.

Second, the role of the enlisted in the military vis-a-vis officers really has no bearing on the legality of what the Air Force did. We're a nation of laws, the government and the military are bound to it just as much as citizens are other legal personalities are.

[Laerod]

Stop making a stand and say God's name. He is making a big stink over the fact he just has to endure 2 seconds of mental pain. I would say the words because they are meaningless to me.

In the military, enlisted men are paid to do, not think. Officers are paid to think. That is a reason I had low respect for my job in the military and got out. He wants to reenlist so he should understand by now his role is to obey orders, even when they are stupid. Say the words and stop being a baby!

Haha! No.

[The Alma Mater]

Stop making a stand and say God's name. He is making a big stink over the fact he just has to endure 2 seconds of mental pain.

He is making a big stink of being forced to defile the thing he is supposed to protect.

[Freiheit Reich]

Stop making a stand and say God's name. He is making a big stink over the fact he just has to endure 2 seconds of mental pain. I would say the words because they are meaningless to me.

In the military, enlisted men are paid to do, not think. Officers are paid to think. That is a reason I had low respect for my job in the military and got out. He wants to reenlist so he should understand by now his role is to obey orders, even when they are stupid. Say the words and stop being a baby!

If you were in the military then you know that it is the responsibility of every member of the armed forces to disobey an illegal order.

Yes, they tell you that but this oath is not an illegal order. It is very rare that an order is illegal.

[Tekania]

Stop making a stand and say God's name. He is making a big stink over the fact he just has to endure 2 seconds of mental pain. I would say the words because they are meaningless to me.

In the military, enlisted men are paid to do, not think. Officers are paid to think. That is a reason I had low respect for my job in the military and got out. He wants to reenlist so he should understand by now his role is to obey orders, even when they are stupid. Say the words and stop being a baby!

Issue has been resolved, USAF talked to DoD General Counsel and the USAF has put their policy in line with the rest of the branches in the DoD, with the "God" part being optional again (like it was before last year, anyway). So, since his enlistment isn't up to November anyway, he can take the oath without swearing to God, and re-enlist now. Veterans on NSG 1... assholes 0.

And enlisted people are paid to think, not just follow orders. My Weps would have tore you a new one.

[Freiheit Reich]

Stop making a stand and say God's name. He is making a big stink over the fact he just has to endure 2 seconds of mental pain. I would say the words because they are meaningless to me.

In the military, enlisted men are paid to do, not think. Officers are paid to think. That is a reason I had low respect for my job in the military and got out. He wants to reenlist so he should understand by now his role is to obey orders, even when they are stupid. Say the words and stop being a baby!

If you believe the words of the oath you are reciting have no meaning... why bother with the oath at all.

You say it so you can keep your job. I said things I didn't believe all the time in the military to fit in and keep the superiors happy. Including motivational chants like 'guts, guts, guts, makes the green grass green.' Just say the words, I am sure he has said things he doesn't mean before such as 'no honey, that dress doesn't make you look fat at all' or 'I can run to Texas just like this....all by myself.' Do you really think he meant those things also??

[Freiheit Reich]

Stop making a stand and say God's name. He is making a big stink over the fact he just has to endure 2 seconds of mental pain. I would say the words because they are meaningless to me.

In the military, enlisted men are paid to do, not think. Officers are paid to think. That is a reason I had low respect for my job in the military and got out. He wants to reenlist so he should understand by now his role is to obey orders, even when they are stupid. Say the words and stop being a baby!

Haha! No.

I remember in basic training, somebody was smart enough to shave his head planning to save money but he was forced to get his head shaved by the barber and pay $6 just like the rest of us. The drill sergeant did it to make a point that he was superior to us. That taught me that thinking is a waste of time in the army. There are plenty more examples of leaders giving out inefficient and stupid orders but lower ranking soldiers are powerless so I just followed my orders and counted my days.

This airman accepts the military way of life though. He should be used to following the idiotic orders of his superiors. He can think of the oath as another order he must follow even though he doesn't like it.

[MERIZoC]

Yumyum should probably update the title.

[Freiheit Reich]

Stop making a stand and say God's name. He is making a big stink over the fact he just has to endure 2 seconds of mental pain.

He is making a big stink of being forced to defile the thing he is supposed to protect.

The military is no longer an organization to be respected. The immoral Iraqi invasion shows that the military is just the arm of corrupt leaders. I am not blaming the soldiers too much, they are just following corrupt orders from powerful men in Washington as the oath tells them to. The oath is meaningless whether it says God or not, he should know this by now. He is willing to obey orders to invade a country that didn't attack the USA but he can't say a few words?!

[Tekania]

Haha! No.

I remember in basic training, somebody was smart enough to shave his head planning to save money but he was forced to get his head shaved by the barber and pay $6 just like the rest of us. The drill sergeant did it to make a point that he was superior to us. That taught me that thinking is a waste of time in the army. There are plenty more examples of leaders giving out inefficient and stupid orders but lower ranking soldiers are powerless so I just followed my orders and counted my days.

This airman accepts the military way of life though. He should be used to following the idiotic orders of his superiors. He can think of the oath as another order he must follow even though he doesn't like it.

The difference here being that an order to pay $6 for a haircut is not an illegal order. An order requiring you to state God in an enlistment oath is an illegal order. When you are subject to an illegal order you do not follow it and issue immediate response as to why and move our complain up the chain. The issue will be corrected, as it has here, with the superiors having made the order being corrected by their superiors. All is good, as this Airman has assisted and done good service to his fellow Airmen to correct this problem.

[Condunum]

its a re-iteration of the cliche - there are no atheists in foxholes.

To which of course, the answer is that we should get rid of foxholes, not atheism.

Why no. To which the answer is that atheists do not belong in foxholes - they belong in command.

Think about it. It is a good thing if the guy in the field believes there is something pleasant after death, since that can be a great comfort when he is in a life-threatening situation. It is also a good thing if the person who has to decide if the aforementioned guy in the field has to go into that dangerious situation believes this is the only life you get and should be treated with care and consideration.

This is great.