Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[West Aurelia]

How do you know?

Because the first person to annex them would have been the Germans, and thus more sympathy would be had for the Red Army most likely. The Baltic states being illegally annexed by the USSR after barely over generation after independence kinda didn't sit well with them.

Either way, fringe groups be fringe. Considering the people in the Baltic states got shat on by both sides. It's just at the end, they got reannexed by one of them for half a century.

He's saying that there wouldn't be any neo-Nazi marches if the USSR didn't annex them. There's no way to prove that.

[Busen]

Because of historical reasons. The maon reason why there was so many SS volunteers in the Baltics is because USSR have ocuupied them first and comiteed genocide. When the Nazis came they started a propaganda where they said they have liberated them from Russian rule and promised them the Restoration of the independence that Stalin took in 1940.

Sources?

For wgat exactly?

[Jinwoy]

How do you know?

Because of historical reasons. The maon reason why there was so many SS volunteers in the Baltics is because USSR have ocuupied them first and comiteed genocide. When the Nazis came they started a propaganda where they said they have liberated them from Russian rule and promised them the Restoration of the independence that Stalin took in 1940.

That is an outright lie, and even if Hitler or his regime did say that, they broke that promise before they even finished invading them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskommissariat_Ostland

[Napkiraly]

Because the first person to annex them would have been the Germans, and thus more sympathy would be had for the Red Army most likely. The Baltic states being illegally annexed by the USSR after barely over generation after independence kinda didn't sit well with them.

Either way, fringe groups be fringe. Considering the people in the Baltic states got shat on by both sides. It's just at the end, they got reannexed by one of them for half a century.

He's saying that there wouldn't be any neo-Nazi marches if the USSR didn't annex them. There's no way to prove that.

Well of course there would be. There are neo-Nazis in goddamned Mongolia. I think, what, half of the world's neo-Nazis are Russian?

Anyway, the issue with the Baltic's is complicated since, as stated, they got shated on by both sides. It's why a lot actually joined the Finnish military. Still get to kill Soviets without joining the assholes exploiting your country.

[Lytenburgh]

Well of course there would be. There are neo-Nazis in goddamned Mongolia. I think, what, half of the world's neo-Nazis are Russian?

This claim was already mentioned in this thread. Anti-Russian posters failed to prove it.

[Jinwoy]

Well of course there would be. There are neo-Nazis in goddamned Mongolia. I think, what, half of the world's neo-Nazis are Russian?

This claim was already mentioned in this thread. Anti-Russian posters failed to prove it.

ew. guess who the claim was originally by.
The Australian media.
They didn't back it up with anything.

[Napkiraly]

Well of course there would be. There are neo-Nazis in goddamned Mongolia. I think, what, half of the world's neo-Nazis are Russian?

This claim was already mentioned in this thread. Anti-Russian posters failed to prove it.

Well it's from a story based off of estimates that's circulated a lot or something.

Anyway as for your tidbit, that somehow pointing this out or believing it means they're anti-Russian. Does saying that Western Europe have a problem with far right parties mean that you're anti-Western Europe? Does saying that Canada has a shit record when it comes aboriginals mean you're anti-Canadian? No? Well what do you know, pointing out that a country has a problem with something does not make them anti-country XYZ.

At this point I'm half expecting that if I were to point out that Russia has a corruption problem that would make the four Gods of Chaos blush, I'd be accused of being a Russophobe.

[Busen]

Because of historical reasons. The maon reason why there was so many SS volunteers in the Baltics is because USSR have ocuupied them first and comiteed genocide. When the Nazis came they started a propaganda where they said they have liberated them from Russian rule and promised them the Restoration of the independence that Stalin took in 1940.

That is an outright lie, and even if Hitler or his regime did say that, they broke that promise before they even finished invading them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskommissariat_Ostland

RKO was a secret plan and could not know for that. Thoose from the Baltics who joined the SS did not because they believed in Nazi ideology (at least not the was majority) but because they believed they were fighting for their countries. Keep on mind when Stalin conquered the Baltics he ordered to send even kids in gulags.

But look what the Soviets did after they recaptured:
1. They genocided and etnichal cleaned the native population
2. Encouraged settlings of the Russians there
3. Thoose Russian minority became a ruling class that despised the Balts making them into second class citizens.
How is this different than GeneralOst? It is not.

[The Greater Aryan Race]

Because he is harmless clown. Name just one bill written by his party AND accepted by Duma, that is "racist" or "neo-Nazi".

Irrelevant, the man has been guilty of anti-Semitic tirades and race hatred, bordering on the Nazi-esque. Why isn't the Russian government putting him prison? I mean, aren't you folks all anti-Nazi and anti-freedom of speech?

There are maybe 3000 or less of them left. Practically everyone forgot about them by now. And they don't qulify as neo-Nazis.

Really? Cos they seem to be saying some awfully similar things:

The recurring motive in the group's ideology was the claim of the existence of a so-called "Ziono-Masonic plot" against Russia as "the main source of the misfortunes of Russian people, disintegration of the economy, denationalization of Russian culture, alcoholism, ecological crisis" (according to Pamyat). The "Zionists" were also blamed for the triggering of the revolutions in 1905 and 1917, the death of millions in the course of the Russian Civil War and for Joseph Stalin's personality cult. The contemporary Soviet government apparatus was alleged to be infiltrated by "Zionists and freemasons" working as "agents of Zionism" and serving the purpose of subordinating the Soviet government to the "Jewish capital". The "Zionist Occupation Government" accusation was often used by Pamyat....

......It was claimed Pamyat's ideology blended fascism with autocratic monarchy (rejecting the "legitimist" Romanov family line), and an interpretation of Orthodoxy that borrowed heavily from the Nazi sponsored Positive Christianity. One of Pamyat's founders, Valeriy Yemelyanov, attempted to merge religious neo-Paganism with Russian ethnic neo-Nazism. He is also the author of the book "Dezionization".

So yeah why isn't anti-Nazi Russian banning them?

Then why in three Baltic countries a lot of their modern "national conscience" is based on glorification of those, who fought for Hitler?

Oh you know, maybe because of something called the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact that the Soviet Union illegally annexed the three countries and that during the course of Barborossa, the Baltic inhabitants welcomed the Nazis as liberators since anything was better than Soviet rule.

Of course you probably think that part of the Pact is some ebul Western-Zionist conspiracy theory.

Some people think that principle of the "Freedom of Speach" is so Holy, that every scum, even the most despicabe should be allowed to benefit from it. It vehemently disagree with that. In no form or guise should Nazism be allowed to benefit from it. For me there is no compromise about that.

[/quote]
Then ban Communism as well since it has been responsible for some of the worst atrocities in mankind alongside Nazism. Whaddya say? Logical consistency eh?

[Lytenburgh]

Too fucking bad. We don't arrest Nazis for being Nazis (cf. National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, 432 U.S. 43 [1977]),

Too bad - and IMHO there is nothing to be proud of here. Of course, it is as if the USA never had pro-Nazi organisations of their own.

Hell, the whole "Democratic West" allowed Hitler to re-arm Germany and till the end really hoped that he will do his Drag nach osten! Germany was so much more civilised and proper European country, after all! And such sentiments were (as evident even here on NSG, whenever there appears a choice betwenn USSR and Nazi Germany - still are) shared by a lot of Westerners.

So, I'm kinda not surprised that the West here is not "persecuting" poor and helpless Neo-Nazis.

just like we didn't arrest Communists for being Communists, even during the height of the Cold War;

Seriously? Really? Honestly? (I can continue, btw)

You just said that with a straight face? Damn, I envy your unshacable convictions! How can I even hope to compete with such stalwart belief in the Holy and Always Truthfull US of A?

Oh, btw - it is hardly a rocket science to persecute a political opponent and/or activists not on for his/her political beliefs. but due to trumped up and fabricated charges. But this, follow your brilliant logic, is totally okay - because it doesn't violate the letter of your Laws and principles! Yet another indulgence frot your consciencse!

Oh, and we let gays fuck each other, too, without beating the shit out of them. Damn, we suck, don't we?

I'm not sure whether you all are orally please each other. Honestly, I think it is unlikely.

As for letting gays to duck each other - so? Last time I looked out of the window I've noticed a stark lack of lynched gays hanging from lampposts in Moscow, or roaming bands of anti-gay activists cheking each arriving foreigner with Gaydar.

"We believe in freedom...

...only whet it is appropriate and in your interests.

" You don't.

No. I (and in many instansces - we) don't worship it. Its not a deity - only an abstract concept that is subjected to whims of people and time.

You think we're monstrous for not limiting freedom, and we think you're monstrous for doing the opposite.

Funny thing - I (and in many instances - we) don't consider you "monstrous". Misguided - yes. Oh, and nice to know that you think that we are monstrous.

I guess we're going to have to kill each other over this, aren't we?

My-my! A suggestion to engage in violence coming from Westerner first and not from me, "monstrous" Russian!

[Baltenstein]

This claim was already mentioned in this thread. Anti-Russian posters failed to prove it.

Well it's from a story based off of estimates that's circulated a lot or something.

Anyway as for your tidbit, that somehow pointing this out or believing it means they're anti-Russian. Does saying that Western Europe have a problem with far right parties mean that you're anti-Western Europe? Does saying that Canada has a shit record when it comes aboriginals mean you're anti-Canadian? No? Well what do you know, pointing out that a country has a problem with something does not make them anti-country XYZ.

At this point I'm half expecting that if I were to point out that Russia has a corruption problem that would make the four Gods of Chaos blush, I'd be accused of being a Russophobe.

Not only Russophobe, but pro-Nazi in fact.

Nevermind the Russian Federation's amicable ties and financial support to European Far Right parties (including clear-cut Nazi sympathizers like Jobbik and Golden Dawn), many of whom attented the glorious free referendum in Crimea - after all, they stop being Neo-Nazis the very second they start praising Russia.

[Lytenburgh]

Irrelevant, the man has been guilty of anti-Semitic tirades and race hatred, bordering on the Nazi-esque. Why isn't the Russian government putting him prison? I mean, aren't you folks all anti-Nazi and anti-freedom of speech?

For what? Name Russian Law Codex article, according to which he should be persecuted.

Only you and a few anti-Russians claim that Zhirik is some sort of Neo-Nazi. For a person who said that "My mother was Russian and father was... a lawyer" Vladimir Volfovich ZHirinoskiy doesn't strike anyone as anti-semite

Really? Cos they seem to be saying some awfully similar things:

The recurring motive in the group's ideology was the claim of the existence of a so-called "Ziono-Masonic plot" against Russia as "the main source of the misfortunes of Russian people, disintegration of the economy, denationalization of Russian culture, alcoholism, ecological crisis" (according to Pamyat). The "Zionists" were also blamed for the triggering of the revolutions in 1905 and 1917, the death of millions in the course of the Russian Civil War and for Joseph Stalin's personality cult. The contemporary Soviet government apparatus was alleged to be infiltrated by "Zionists and freemasons" working as "agents of Zionism" and serving the purpose of subordinating the Soviet government to the "Jewish capital". The "Zionist Occupation Government" accusation was often used by Pamyat....

......It was claimed Pamyat's ideology blended fascism with autocratic monarchy (rejecting the "legitimist" Romanov family line), and an interpretation of Orthodoxy that borrowed heavily from the Nazi sponsored Positive Christianity. One of Pamyat's founders, Valeriy Yemelyanov, attempted to merge religious neo-Paganism with Russian ethnic neo-Nazism. He is also the author of the book "Dezionization".

So yeah why isn't anti-Nazi Russian banning them?

Because in 1994 on their II Assemby they also condemned National-Socialism, distanced themselves from anti-semitisms and since thm remained fringe. not numerous radical monarchist organisation.

Oh you know, maybe because of something called the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact that the Soviet Union illegally annexed the three countries and that during the course of Barborossa, the Baltic inhabitants welcomed the Nazis as liberators since anything was better than Soviet rule.

Of course you probably think that part of the Pact is some ebul Western-Zionist conspiracy theory.

No I don't believe in your last stament about "conspiracy" - stop straw-maning.

No matter what happened to them in less then 2 years of USSR control prior to war, it doesn't excuse:

1) Fact, that the very moment Hitlerite forces marched in their countries they started persecuting jews en-masse, often volunteering to "help" SS in rooting them out and serving as death-camps guards.
2) That they fought for Hitler.
3) That local population builds up its national legend trying to foreget 1) and whitewash 2).

Then ban Communism as well since it has been responsible for some of the worst atrocities in mankind alongside Nazism. Whaddya say? Logical consistency eh?

No. Communism never preached annihilaton of entire ethnicities. Besides, in case of Nazism it's also a "Vae Victus" principle in action

[Jinwoy]

That is an outright lie, and even if Hitler or his regime did say that, they broke that promise before they even finished invading them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskommissariat_Ostland

RKO was a secret plan and could not know for that. Thoose from the Baltics who joined the SS did not because they believed in Nazi ideology (at least not the was majority) but because they believed they were fighting for their countries. Keep on mind when Stalin conquered the Baltics he ordered to send even kids in gulags.

But look what the Soviets did after they recaptured:
1. They genocided and etnichal cleaned the native population
2. Encouraged settlings of the Russians there
3. Thoose Russian minority became a ruling class that despised the Balts making them into second class citizens.
How is this different than GeneralOst? It is not.

Tu quoque.
You said that they were promised independence, and I proved you wrong entirely. Stick to that point.

[Baltenstein]

Hell, the whole "Democratic West" allowed Hitler to re-arm Germany and till the end really hoped that he will do his Drag nach osten! Germany was so much more civilised and proper European country, after all!

Is that why France and Britain declared war on Germany upon the latter's invasion of Poland while the Soviet Union's reaction was...let's say, somewhat less honorable?

[Jinwoy]

Hell, the whole "Democratic West" allowed Hitler to re-arm Germany and till the end really hoped that he will do his Drag nach osten! Germany was so much more civilised and proper European country, after all!

Is that why France and Britain declared war on Germany upon the latter's invasion of Poland while the Soviet Union's reaction was...let's say, somewhat less honorable?

You mean the joint soviet-german invasion of Poland, or the sudden invasion of the Soviet Union by Germany?

[Baltenstein]

Is that why France and Britain declared war on Germany upon the latter's invasion of Poland while the Soviet Union's reaction was...let's say, somewhat less honorable?

You mean the joint soviet-german invasion of Poland, or the sudden invasion of the Soviet Union by Germany?

Well, when Germany put Drang nach Osten into action by invading Poland, the two Western European powers reacted by declaring war on Germany. The USSR, on the other hand...

[Slobozhanshchyna]

Yo Lytenburgh, tell me about the "Ratnik". You guys've been showing how cool it is everywhere yet my pal currently serving in the "glorious" ВСРФ says otherwise.

Also, why are your special forces using enemyAmerican equipment?

[Jinwoy]

Also, why are your special forces using enemyAmerican equipment?

US uses Soviet/Russian equipment as well. It's not special.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-27

[Slobozhanshchyna]

Also, why are your special forces using enemyAmerican equipment?

US uses Soviet/Russian equipment as well. It's not special.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-27

From your link:

"Two Su-27s were delivered to the United States in 1995. Two more were bought from Ukraine in 2009 by a private company, Pride Aircraft. They were to be used for aggressor training for U.S. pilots."

[The Greater Aryan Race]

For what? Name Russian Law Codex article, according to which he should be persecuted.

Articles 280 (Public Appeals for the Performance of Extremist Activity) and 282 (Incitement of Hatred or Enmity, as well as Abasement of Human Dignity) of the Russian Criminal Code.

Only you and a few anti-Russians claim that Zhirik is some sort of Neo-Nazi. For a person who said that "My mother was Russian and father was... a lawyer" Vladimir Volfovich ZHirinoskiy doesn't strike anyone as anti-semite.

Oh please, you're actually trying to defend a man guilty of Fascist and racist political views? Hypocrisy abounds.

Oh that makes me anti-Russian for calling out a racist politician for his racism and extremism? Nice try with the strawman but you'll have to do better than that.

No I don't believe in your last stament about "conspiracy" - stop straw-maning.

Me straw-manning? Hardly so considering that you dismiss any view contrary to yours as being anti-Russian and biased.

No matter what happened to them in less then 2 years of USSR control prior to war, it doesn't excuse:

1) Fact, that the very moment Hitlerite forces marched in their countries they started persecuting jews en-masse, often volunteering to "help" SS in rooting them out and serving as death-camps guards.
2) That they fought for Hitler.
3) That local population builds up its national legend trying to foreget 1) and whitewash 2).

Never said those were excusable, but then again, neither is illegally annexing the Baltic states under the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and during the post-World War II period.

No. Communism never preached annihilaton of entire ethnicities. Besides, in case of Nazism it's also a "Vae Victus" principle in action

Communism preaches the destruction of an entire social class simply because they own a considerable amount of property and hold a considerable degree of wealth, never mind that these people have done nothing to deserve expropriation.

That is in itself equally repulsive as destroying an entire race of people.

[Bratislavskaya]

Yo Lytenburgh, tell me about the "Ratnik". You guys've been showing how cool it is everywhere yet my pal currently serving in the "glorious" ВСРФ says otherwise.

Also, why are your special forces using enemyAmerican equipment?

What? An American camo pattern?

No. Communism never preached annihilaton of entire ethnicities. Besides, in case of Nazism it's also a "Vae Victus" principle in action

Communism preaches the destruction of an entire social class simply because they own a considerable amount of property and hold a considerable degree of wealth, never mind that these people have done nothing to deserve expropriation.

That is in itself equally repulsive as destroying an entire race of people.

Not at all. Destroying a social class doesn't involve killing everyone in it (Although it can).

[Slobozhanshchyna]

Communism preaches the destruction of an entire social class simply because they own a considerable amount of property and hold a considerable degree of wealth, never mind that these people have done nothing to deserve expropriation. That is in itself equally repulsive as destroying an entire race of people.

Gr8 b8, m8.

Thread unrelated: Nothing but creating social and economic inequality with a system of corporate slavery. It's their greed and selfishness alone that calls for expropriation. Also, left-wing ideas disregard the concept of racial distinction, instead promoting the notion that all people are equal.

[Jinwoy]

US uses Soviet/Russian equipment as well. It's not special.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-27

From your link:

"Two Su-27s were delivered to the United States in 1995. Two more were bought from Ukraine in 2009 by a private company, Pride Aircraft. They were to be used for aggressor training for U.S. pilots."

and your point is?
there are other military equipment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-8
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_Mi ... ted_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An ... _operators
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-24

[Bears Armed]

Thread unrelated: Nothing but creating social and economic inequality with a system of corporate slavery. It's their greed and selfishness alone that calls for expropriation.

So by your definition every kulak was a "corporation"?!?

[Bears Armed]

Thread unrelated: Nothing but creating social and economic inequality with a system of corporate slavery. It's their greed and selfishness alone that calls for expropriation.

So by your definition every kulak was a "corporation"?!?