Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[United Marxist Nations]

Referring to the murder of thousands of civilians as "collateral damage" is the kind of thing that is looked down on, whether Russia does it or Ukraine does it, or anybody does it.

And i feel sorry for the innocent civilians in Eastern Ukraine, i'm sure most of them dont give a fuck for either side and want a return to normal lives.

as for the "rebels" Boo hoo, run along back across the Don.

Are you seriously denying that any of the rebels are from Ukraine? Do you really have no idea how much the regions vary in opinion?

[The balkens]

And i feel sorry for the innocent civilians in Eastern Ukraine, i'm sure most of them dont give a fuck for either side and want a return to normal lives.

as for the "rebels" Boo hoo, run along back across the Don.

Are you seriously denying that any of the rebels are from Ukraine? Do you really have no idea how much the regions vary in opinion?

I am denying that most of them are, yes.

[Lexicor]

Are you seriously denying that any of the rebels are from Ukraine? Do you really have no idea how much the regions vary in opinion?

I am denying that most of them are, yes.

Then you have a serious case of tunnel vision.

[Occupied Deutschland]

And i feel sorry for the innocent civilians in Eastern Ukraine, i'm sure most of them dont give a fuck for either side and want a return to normal lives.

as for the "rebels" Boo hoo, run along back across the Don.

Are you seriously denying that any of the rebels are from Ukraine? Do you really have no idea how much the regions vary in opinion?

On separatism, excepting Crimea, not all that much even post-Maidan.
Hell, 27% support for secession amongst Russian speakers in the East is pretty damn low.

The separatists never were, and likely remain, a fringe extremist group. As evidenced by their leadership, a fringe extremist group very connected with actual Russian citizens, to say the least. One that also derives a great deal of support from cross-border 'cossacks', 'volunteers' and 'Russian paratroopers who got lost'.

Other source I can't give precise page number on. Al Jazeera says it reports a 4% support for Ukraine splitting into different countries in the East.

[United Marxist Nations]

Are you seriously denying that any of the rebels are from Ukraine? Do you really have no idea how much the regions vary in opinion?

On separatism, excepting Crimea, not all that much even post-Maidan.
Hell, 27% support for secession amongst Russian speakers in the East is pretty damn low.

The separatists never were, and likely remain, a fringe extremist group. As evidenced by their leadership, a fringe extremist group very connected with actual Russian citizens, to say the least. One that also derives a great deal of support from cross-border 'cossacks', 'volunteers' and 'Russian paratroopers who got lost'.

And a large portion of the rebels, before the massive bombing campaign, weren't demanding independence (that is why the rebels experienced internal conflict, and still do in some cases).

[Occupied Deutschland]

On separatism, excepting Crimea, not all that much even post-Maidan.
Hell, 27% support for secession amongst Russian speakers in the East is pretty damn low.

The separatists never were, and likely remain, a fringe extremist group. As evidenced by their leadership, a fringe extremist group very connected with actual Russian citizens, to say the least. One that also derives a great deal of support from cross-border 'cossacks', 'volunteers' and 'Russian paratroopers who got lost'.

And a large portion of the rebels, before the massive bombing campaign, weren't demanding independence (that is why the rebels experienced internal conflict, and still do in some cases).

Federalization wasn't especially popular either, even in the East. Getting 26% support. (page 37)

Problem being, of course, that events have overtaken these polls.
Of course, those events were/are also encouraged if not outright instigated by a foreign power. I'd say a foreign power manipulating, supplying, and encouraging (if not outright STARTING, which is incredibly possible) a separatist group creates a rather humorous dynamic for the appeals of Ukrainian separatists.

[Shofercia]

And a large portion of the rebels, before the massive bombing campaign, weren't demanding independence (that is why the rebels experienced internal conflict, and still do in some cases).

Federalization wasn't especially popular either, even in the East. Getting 26% support. (page 37)

Problem being, of course, that events have overtaken these polls.
Of course, those events were/are also encouraged if not outright instigated by a foreign power. I'd say a foreign power manipulating, supplying, and encouraging (if not outright STARTING, which is incredibly possible) a separatist group creates a rather humorous dynamic for the appeals of Ukrainian separatists.

If you think that Putin started these events, you have no idea about how the inner dynamics of Russia really work. There are numerous factions involved, and Putin would certainly not want to see Kudrin's faction face a potential to be destroyed at the hands of the hardliners. Come to think of it, a Swiss-style Federalized Ukraine without Crimea would've been the best outcome for Putin, prior to the egregious shelling, since the hardliners wouldn't gain too much power, (thanks to Putin taking Crimea,) whereas the EU wouldn't sanction Russia, (thanks to events being limited to Crimea,) and the EU-Russia could've worked out a deal to assist innocent Ukrainians against vile thugs from groups like the Right Sector. It's why Putin was willing to give Poroshenko a card blanche at his inauguration.

Again, what you guys are missing isn't that the hardliners would go against the will of the majority of Russians on Ukraine. It's that said hardliners would go beyond Ukraine and Moldova, and again, to nearly all other groups, the Baltics aren't worth the EU-Russia trade deal. Take a look at how Crimea was annexed: a bloodless annexation. Thing is, OD, much like the US, Russia doesn't march in lockstep. Putin's popular because he's best option, not because all Russians agree with everything he says 24/7. However, the original hardliner support was also rather limited. It built up as refugees came into Russia, talking about the horrors of Oligarch Battalions and their atrocities. You don't leave everything behind unless you're truly desperate, and if the pro-Russian Rebels are hurting you, Russia wouldn't be your country of choice to become a refugee.

[Respawn]

Fabulous Lenin is fabulous.

Admiring vandalism, hm?

I will also be cheering when this happen:

alhamdulillah brother i really like the symbolism of a brave mujahid beheading the american kuffar

inshallah the flag of tawheed shall also fly over donbass and the lugant!

[Washington Resistance Army]

Admiring vandalism, hm?

I will also be cheering when this happen:

alhamdulillah brother i really like the symbolism of a brave mujahid beheading the american kuffar

inshallah the flag of tawheed shall also fly over donbass and the lugant!

Islamic State of Donetsk and Lugansk... Wat

[The balkens]

alhamdulillah brother i really like the symbolism of a brave mujahid beheading the american kuffar

inshallah the flag of tawheed shall also fly over donbass and the lugant!

Islamic State of Donetsk and Lugansk... Wat

heh.

[Lyttenburg]

Admiring vandalism, hm?

I will also be cheering when this happen:

alhamdulillah brother i really like the symbolism of a brave mujahid beheading the american kuffar

inshallah the flag of tawheed shall also fly over donbass and the lugant!

This pictures is older then this ISIS-thing. Way too older. Or, what, now any depiction of decapitation is now should be connected with radical islamic militants?

Oh, cursed be Cromwell and his jihadists!

[Respawn]

This pictures is older then this ISIS-thing. Way too older. Or, what, now any depiction of decapitation is now should be connected with radical islamic militants?

Oh, cursed be Cromwell and his jihadists!

Are you sure? ISIS was formed in April of 2013. The war in Donbass only began this year.

Do you know something that we don't? Please feel free to share.

Right, after deciphering your Runglish, I see what you are referring to now. Given the current context of beheadings, it was the first thing that sprung to my mind. The Khilafah is global, after all.

[Malgrave]

- It seems that the Russian occupation of Crimea is not going well for some. Several Crimean Tatars and Pro-Ukrainian activists have been abducted in recent weeks.

- In Russia an activist working to investigate the death and disappearance of Russian soldiers in Ukraine has been arrestedand charged with "fraud". Just to add to the list of people that have been "mugged" and "assaulted" while also investigating the involvement of Russian soldiers in Ukraine.

[United Marxist Nations]

So apparently I underestimated the Soviet nostalgia in Novorossiya:

Land, its subsoil, water, flora and fauna, as well as major industrial and financial assets created by "the labor of the people," are public property, and cannot be privately owned. Large property, industrial and financial assets will be owned by the state. Remuneration of each person will be measured by the "usefulness of [one's] work to society".
-wiki page on Novorossiya

I don't know if they're pandering to KPU members (the Party and its supporters are pretty strong in Donbass, particularly the urban areas), or if they are genuine, but it is interesting nonetheless.

[Constantinopolis]

So apparently I underestimated the Soviet nostalgia in Novorossiya:

Land, its subsoil, water, flora and fauna, as well as major industrial and financial assets created by "the labor of the people," are public property, and cannot be privately owned. Large property, industrial and financial assets will be owned by the state. Remuneration of each person will be measured by the "usefulness of [one's] work to society".
-wiki page on Novorossiya

I don't know if they're pandering to KPU members (the Party and its supporters are pretty strong in Donbass, particularly the urban areas), or if they are genuine, but it is interesting nonetheless.

It's not really a matter of Soviet nostalgia specifically, or pandering to communists in particular. Public ownership of natural resources and large companies is more or less supported by every radical political movement in Russia (and by extension in the Russian cultural area), ranging from nationalists to pan-Slavists to communists to Orthodox fundamentalists.

Any sort of Russian radical political entity is going to at least declare that as one of its goals. This is one of the reasons why I have high hopes for Russia. Although the organized left isn't exactly going to knock on the gates of power any time soon, key leftist economic ideas are part of the zeitgeist - at least among politically-involved people. And yes, conservatism on social issues is also part of the zeitgeist, but you know what? I don't really care.

However, as much as I am excited by the prospect of Novorossiya being the first country in Europe to enact sweeping nationalizations since the 1980s, it remains to be seen whether they will carry out their declared economic and social goals. So far Novorossiya hasn't really started building state institutions, so we can't be sure what they will look like. At the moment, Novorossiya is an army and not much else. It will take a while for it to become a proper state.

[Costa Fierro]

So apparently I underestimated the Soviet nostalgia in Novorossiya:

Land, its subsoil, water, flora and fauna, as well as major industrial and financial assets created by "the labor of the people," are public property, and cannot be privately owned. Large property, industrial and financial assets will be owned by the state. Remuneration of each person will be measured by the "usefulness of [one's] work to society".
-wiki page on Novorossiya

I don't know if they're pandering to KPU members (the Party and its supporters are pretty strong in Donbass, particularly the urban areas), or if they are genuine, but it is interesting nonetheless.

It's probably full of those old people who grew up in the Soviet Union and liked it then on the basis they had jobs and such. Old people feeling nostalgic is pretty universal. One of my Nan's runs a B&B and had an East German couple stay over. She said they spent the best part of a couple of hours going on about how nice it was in East Germany before the unification because their small town had a proper school, medical clinic and a supermarket whereas today, it doesn't.

Increases in standards of living and a better quality of life (in some cases) don't always seem to trump state funded local services like hospitals and schools, even though the quality of healthcare might border on third world (and towards the end of the Cold War, East Germany was borderline).

Faced with what they have today, it's understandable some people feel nostalgic. Although I don't think most people would want the economic issues or the oppressive nature of the government. Or even the substandard housing.

[Shofercia]

For the first time, Russia's selling quality technology to China, quality military technology that is: http://www.inquisitr.com/1547790/russia ... by-russia/

Pardon the misleading title, Russia isn't giving it away; Russia's selling it, for quite a hefty fee:

A new Russian submarine design called the Amur 1650 is going to be sold to China, with Vladimir Putin hoping that Russia’s economic recession may be averted partially by making deals with the Chinese.

Since Russia lost billions, in part due to sanctions, Russia sold submarine tech to China, that made up for some of the losses, China's power in the Pacific increased, America's decreased. If Obama keeps up the sanctions, hey, China's interested in increasing their power projections in the Pacific. And with Russian submarine tech going to China, the damage to the US will be greater than the damage to Russia. China's got lots of money. Meanwhile Poland gets trolled: http://rt.com/business/196820-kremlin-s ... l-ukraine/

Now that Ukraine wants to receive Polish coal, and not Russian gas, free of charge, the Kremlin said it is surprised at Warsaw’s inconsistency towards Ukraine’s energy crisis. “Our Polish partners have reacted in such a lively way to news of Ukraine wanting to get Polish coal almost free of charge,” Dmitry Peskov, the spokesman of Russian President Vladimir Putin, said. The Russian President was in Milan Friday with European and Asian leaders at the ASEM summit. Peskov sees a major inconsistency in Warsaw’s attitude towards Ukraine in terms of which resources can be obtained for free and which cannot. The aide told Poland it shouldn’t be surprised that Ukraine wants to receive coal without paying, since Poland thinks that giving Ukraine Russian gas for free is fair. On Thursday, Poland’s Deputy Prime Minister Janusz Pehochinsky expressed disappointment that Ukraine hasn’t yet paid for 100,000 tons of Polish coal.

Poland said it will provide Ukraine with coal as it faces an energy pinch in the lead up to winter. Poland has 10 million tons of unsold coal, which Warsaw blames on a flood of Russian imports. Ukraine is one of world’s top coal consumers, and home to the 7th largest reserves. However, coal production in Ukraine has suffered as a result of war in the Donbass region, where 90 percent of the country’s coal mines are located. Most have closed down because of the fighting. According to Peskov, Thursday’s report from Poland has shed light on the gas conflict between Russia and Ukraine. “This is the best illustration of what’s going on in the gas sphere. The Poles were greatly impressed and did not conceal their shock. But still they can fully understand the desire to have gas free of charge.” The “free gas” Peskov is talking about is the over 11.5 billion cubic meters of Russian gas Ukraine has imported, but not paid for. In June, Gazprom switched off gas to Ukraine after Kiev refused to pay off its $5.3 billion debt or agree to price negotiations. In 2013 Ukraine used 50 billion cubic meters of gas to heat its homes and factories. More gas discussions are to follow, as Russian Energy Minister Aleksandr Novak and the head of Gazprom Aleksey Miller are part of the Russian delegation currently in Italy for talks.

Poor Poland, cannot into space and cannot into money

[Costa Fierro]

I don't think America's power has decreased in the Pacific at all. The Chinese Navy not only has to contend with the American fleet based in Japan, as well as additional ones in the Pacific, but also technologically advanced rivals like Japan and South Korea. Also, the Amur class submarines are diesel-electric. They're the sorts of submarines offered by smaller countries like Germany, Chile, etc. Russia is offering the same class of submarines to India and Morocco. So please forgive me when I say that "advanced" means "better than submarines that entered service 30 or so years ago".

Meanwhile, Poland can into arrestings of Russian spies.

[The Archregimancy]

That is just not true and cut this bullshit about "everybody hates Russia". Thank that to the Serbs who are potraying you in a such matter. I have offered you my apologies and if you constantly gone to behave like a inuslted pussy instead of appreciate this guester than just ignore me, i would not care.

Just because Lyttenburg is making an unpopular argument doesn't mean you have carte blanche to flamebait and troll; a post phrased in this manner does rather undermine the attempted apology.

Your general approach to debate here might need some re-examination, so perhaps take this *** 1-day ban for trolling flamebait *** as an opportunity.

[Oaledonia]

China's power in the Pacific increased, America's decreased.

The USN/JMSDF is the most adapted to Anti-submarine warfare in the world, so no it didn't.
If you're going to make political commentary, go ahead. But if you're going to make commentary based on military developments, do some homework first. This way, you wont look as foolish as you do right now.

[Costa Fierro]

Germany's BND intelligence agency has concluded that MH17 was shot down with a surface to air missile seized from a Ukrainian military base. And that it was the rebels who shot it down, not the Russian government or the Ukrainians.

This pretty much confirms what we already know.

[United Marxist Nations]

Germany's BND intelligence agency has concluded that MH17 was shot down with a surface to air missile seized from a Ukrainian military base. And that it was the rebels who shot it down, not the Russian government or the Ukrainians.

This pretty much confirms what we already know.

So, the rebels captured it, used it to shoot down a couple of Ukrainian jets. Then mistook MH17 for another, shot it down, freaked out, and then Russia made the rebels give it to them so they couldn't do more harm with it.

Germany's Intelligence Agency took months to figure out what we were all saying it was hours after it happened.

[Costa Fierro]

So, the rebels captured it, used it to shoot down a couple of Ukrainian jets. Then mistook MH17 for another, shot it down, freaked out, and then Russia made the rebels give it to them so they couldn't do more harm with it.

Germany's Intelligence Agency took months to figure out what we were all saying it was hours after it happened.

Pretty much. But hey, we now have a government intelligence agency saying the same thing so we can simply use this to bludgeon "hurr ukraine coverup/hurr russia coverup" people into submission.

[Shofercia]

China's power in the Pacific increased, America's decreased.

The USN/JMSDF is the most adapted to Anti-submarine warfare in the world, so no it didn't.
If you're going to make political commentary, go ahead. But if you're going to make commentary based on military developments, do some homework first. This way, you wont look as foolish as you do right now.

If you're going to bitch about others looking foolish, try avoiding acting like that yourself: https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-na ... 946d0d8535

The P-8 Poseidon is intended to be the Navy’s chief maritime patrol plane over the coming decades. But according to the Pentagon’s annual report on major weapons obtained by Bloomberg Businessweek, the new patroller is unable to effectively conduct two of its main missions: anti-submarine warfare and wide-area reconnaissance.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-2 ... ssion.html

Jan 23, 2014

A new Boeing Co. (BA) surveillance aircraft deployed to Japan last month isn’t yet effective at hunting submarines or performing reconnaissance over large areas -- two of its main missions, the Pentagon’s weapons tester found.

Flaws in the $35 billion program included the plane’s radar performance, sensor integration and data transfer, Michael Gilmore, chief of the Pentagon testing office, wrote in his annual report on major weapons, which has yet to be released. He said the new P-8A Poseidon exhibited “all of the major deficiencies” identified in earlier exercises when subjected to more stressful realistic combat testing from September 2012 to March 2013.

“Many of these deficiencies” led Gilmore to determine that the P-8A “is not effective for the intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance mission and is not effective for wide area anti-submarine search,” he said in a section of the report obtained by Bloomberg News. The Navy plans to conduct additional testing “to verify the correction of some deficiencies,” he wrote.

Care to provide a source that the P-8A is effective for wide area anti-submarine search? Because if we're to take a modern, yet retired Russian submarine, the range is 7.7 thousand kilometers. K-211 armed with R-29 missiles, retired in 2010. Distance from Beijing to Tokyo's at 2.1 thousand kilometers, just to give you a sense of range. That means that said submarine can operate from anywhere within the 7.7 thousand kilometer area, stalking a US Carrier Group. Is the P-8 capable of surveying that large an area?

Warfare is getting smaller and more efficient. Carrier groups no longer hold the weight that they once held, much like Singapore the Impregnable, which ended up being seized by the Japanese rather quickly. And that's where logistics come into play. The distance between China and Taiwan is 1.5 thousand kilometers. That's a short trip. China need not take it, mere power projection over that area, which China has, would be enough to challenge the US. The advancement of submarine technology for China, courtesy of Russia, helps China's power projection in the Pacific, and because the US is adopting an anti-Chinese stance with the Philippines, hurts that of the US. This really isn't rocket science, even though missiles are involved.

[Shofercia]

So, the rebels captured it, used it to shoot down a couple of Ukrainian jets. Then mistook MH17 for another, shot it down, freaked out, and then Russia made the rebels give it to them so they couldn't do more harm with it.

Germany's Intelligence Agency took months to figure out what we were all saying it was hours after it happened.

Pretty much. But hey, we now have a government intelligence agency saying the same thing so we can simply use this to bludgeon "hurr ukraine coverup/hurr russia coverup" people into submission.

We still don't know why the MH-17 was diverted from its original path. While planes are known to fly over warzones, if there's a plane whose path constantly crosses a war zone, the Rebels, (or anyone with internet access and some knowledge of how plane routes work,) would know about it, and thus couldn't mistake it for a military plane. On the other hand, if we're having a diverted plane that's not supposed to be there, that could be tragically mistaken for a military plane, which is why Russia's military was repeatedly asking Kiev for a reason as to why the plane was diverted.