Should School Examinations Be Open Book?

[Gingeska]

Like I said, not really.
And those that do are optional and not graded.

Doing research isn't the same thing as homework.

You clearly have a different definition of homework than I have. Right now I am a TA for a basic engineering class that has assigned problems from the book (or made up by the teacher) to be done on the students own time and to be handed in to be graded. The homework is not optional in that not doing it will harm the students grade. Should enough assignments not be done they will fail the class. Depends what you mean by doing research.

I don't study engineering.
I'm in the liberal arts school, so maybe that's the difference.

But that sounds terrible.

By Research I mean doing.. Uh.. Research?
Researching for the class... Studying... Research to write something.

Aka not "do these repetitive problems for a grade"
Anyway Engineering school sounds... Just awful.

[Gingeska]

Like I said, not really.
And those that do are optional and not graded.

Doing research isn't the same thing as homework.

So you're taking a college course and you think that, based on that experience, you know about all college courses. I think your high school failed you, and I'm surprised your college hasn't noticed or doesn't care.

Highschool failed me? Definitely, huge waste of time.

College, well I give them money and do well grade wise. So I think they're pretty happy.

[Rutthenia]

S
In the real world if a doctor doesn't remember some fact about an illness or about a certain medicine he doesn't give his patient his best guess (''I'm not allowed to look at the answers because that's cheating, so I'll just tell you what I think is the case here...''). No. The doctor would look at his notes, the internet, specialized books etc to double-check facts and then communicate the answer to the patient. Not doing so is irresponsible.

Doctors aren't in School once they finish 8-year Med. School. And no normal doctor would just go on WebMD to diagnose a patient, that's why he studied medicine for the minimum 8 years.

It is a student's job to memorize what s/he has learned, so it will be in their brains for the rest of their life. If every test would be open-book, nobody would know shit without checking their 7th grade History/Math/Science book when at the store.

Thanks for ignoring me. Fuck NSG.

[Brickistan]

As I've gone through school, it was a mix of open and close book examinations.

Primary school was mostly open book whereas university was mostly closed book. Interestingly, the argument for that, at least as I was told it, was that closed book was easier for the students. If it's closed book, then you will be forgiven for not getting everything exactly right - memory, after all, is a fickle thing. Open book examinations, on the other hand, does not allow for such forgiveness as you could, and indeed should, have checked the book.

Personally, I'm not really fond of closed book examinations. Perhaps it's due to my work as a programmer. I simply cannot remember every command for every language that I have ever coded in. The APIs for modern languages are huge - way too big to memorize. So if you have to be tested, then it's better to test if you know where to find the needed information, rather than how much of it you have managed to cram into your head.

Also, I remember reading somewhere, though the source eludes me right now, that learning by memorizing doesn't really work. You tend to simply cram your mind with definitions and formulas, pass the examinations, and then forget most of it again as you now have to memorize the next curriculum. Certainly, I have passed examinations, simply by repeating what the book said without understanding any of it.


But honestly, I'd rather do away with examinations entirely. I've always found it somewhat unfair that a whole years hard work can be completely wasted within a few horrible moments, just because you had a mental blackout and forgot something. Much better, I would argue, to test a student over the whole year, basing a final grade on all the work done over the whole year.

[South Pacific Republic]

We get to use our notes on tests

[Gingeska]

So you're taking a college course and you think that, based on that experience, you know about all college courses. I think your high school failed you, and I'm surprised your college hasn't noticed or doesn't care.

I wonder how long they have been in college? At the higher levels, homework becomes much harder and more important since at the higher levels, normally the classes are smaller and the teacher is dealing directly with the students.

Yeah, a History degree doesn't require too much busywork.

Obviously we define homework differently.
Homework = busywork

Not research, not writing.

I'm talking repetitive bullshit.

[Shnercropolis]

Lecture + fun.
Aka science classes.

AKA all classes.

false. Engrish classes suck.

[Neutraligon]

You clearly have a different definition of homework than I have. Right now I am a TA for a basic engineering class that has assigned problems from the book (or made up by the teacher) to be done on the students own time and to be handed in to be graded. The homework is not optional in that not doing it will harm the students grade. Should enough assignments not be done they will fail the class. Depends what you mean by doing research.

I don't study engineering.
I'm in the liberal arts school, so maybe that's the difference.

But that sounds terrible.

By Research I mean doing.. Uh.. Research?
Researching for the class... Studying... Research to write something.

Aka not "do these repetitive problems for a grade"
Anyway Engineering school sounds... Just awful.

It's a basic engineering class. If these students cannot apply this knowledge, not only will they never succeed as an engineer, they will also place other humans in danger. If you don't want your bridges and building collapsing under you, you would not be getting rid of one of the few ways students have to apply what they have learned in class. I have no idea what liberal arts you do, but for me I also have a degree in Chinese. Doing language homework meant you were learning how to read and write. In those classes the only way to learn is by repetition. You are trying to generalize your experience in whatever field you are in (what field is that?) to topics that cannot work without application and repetition.

[Gingeska]

BTW, I know everything about college.

Just to make someone's statement true.

[Neutraligon]

I wonder how long they have been in college? At the higher levels, homework becomes much harder and more important since at the higher levels, normally the classes are smaller and the teacher is dealing directly with the students.

Yeah, a History degree doesn't require too much busywork.

Obviously we define homework differently.
Homework = busywork

Not research, not writing.

I'm talking repetitive bullshit.

I consider homework to be doing any work assigned in class to be done on the student time. A research paper performed for class is still homework.

[Neutraligon]

BTW, I know everything about college.

Just to make someone's statement true.

Clearly, since you have obviously experienced low level STEM classes.

[Gingeska]

I don't study engineering.
I'm in the liberal arts school, so maybe that's the difference.

But that sounds terrible.

By Research I mean doing.. Uh.. Research?
Researching for the class... Studying... Research to write something.

Aka not "do these repetitive problems for a grade"
Anyway Engineering school sounds... Just awful.

It's a basic engineering class. If these students cannot apply this knowledge, not only will they never succeed as an engineer, they will also place other humans in danger. If you don't want your bridges and building collapsing under you, you would not be getting rid of one of the few ways students have to apply what they have learned in class. I have no idea what liberal arts you do, but for me I also have a degree in Chinese. Doing language homework meant you were learning how to read and write. In those classes the only way to learn is by repetition. You are trying to generalize your experience in whatever field you are in (what field is that?) to topics that cannot work without application and repetition.

Refer to my previous posts where I discuss the validity of homework in language and math.

However this is not graded, at least not where I go to school.
The rare occasions where it is, you could not do any of it and still get an A.

[Connori Pilgrims]

Which is why lecture is the best method.
It's interesting, doesn't breed apathy, and you actually learn.

I am also of the mind that lectures have a use, provided they are supplemented with exercises, problems and & demonstrations to properly engage the attendees. Lectures of the typical "professor just stands in class speaking and writing on the board/clicking the power point while students just listen/try to take notes" variety tend to kill whatever enthusiasm the attendees had for the class.

[Gingeska]

Yeah, a History degree doesn't require too much busywork.

Obviously we define homework differently.
Homework = busywork

Not research, not writing.

I'm talking repetitive bullshit.

I consider homework to be doing any work assigned in class to be done on the student time. A research paper performed for class is still homework.

Well I think that's the source of this disagreement.

[Gingeska]

BTW, I know everything about college.

Just to make someone's statement true.

Clearly, since you have obviously experienced low level STEM classes.

And it's a fly ball... RIGHT OVER HIS HEAD!!!

[Neutraligon]

It's a basic engineering class. If these students cannot apply this knowledge, not only will they never succeed as an engineer, they will also place other humans in danger. If you don't want your bridges and building collapsing under you, you would not be getting rid of one of the few ways students have to apply what they have learned in class. I have no idea what liberal arts you do, but for me I also have a degree in Chinese. Doing language homework meant you were learning how to read and write. In those classes the only way to learn is by repetition. You are trying to generalize your experience in whatever field you are in (what field is that?) to topics that cannot work without application and repetition.

Refer to my previous posts where I discuss the validity of homework in language and math.

However this is not graded, at least not where I go to school.
The rare occasions where it is, you could not do any of it and still get an A.

Then your school is a shit school, at least as far as those classes go. If an engineer is able to get through a class without applying what they know (normally though multiple different problems) they are not someone I would trust to build anything. Math people do not necessarily face the same issues, but again they learn by doing basic problems, on which they build the rest of their career. What school do you go to that engineering students don't have to actually apply what they learn in class.

[New Californian Imperium]

No. Students should study for their own tests.

[Neutraligon]

Clearly, since you have obviously experienced low level STEM classes.

And it's a fly ball... RIGHT OVER HIS HEAD!!!

Oh I got the sarcasm, I decided to respond anyway.

[Koopaville]

Only for upper-level college classes, but not for primary or secondary education, unless it's extremely formula-heavy, like AP math or science classes. Then yes, formulas would be fair. Better have kids learn the ideas rather than just formulas and factoids. But beyond these examples, no. Stuff like algebra and history should be memorized.

[Neutraligon]

I consider homework to be doing any work assigned in class to be done on the student time. A research paper performed for class is still homework.

Well I think that's the source of this disagreement.

Probably because you have no experience in the STEM fields. If an engineering student wants to be able to do actual research, they must first learn the basics. If they want to understand the basics they must apply what is taught in class actual problems. If they do not try to apply what they learn, there is no way they will be able to learn the material.

[Gingeska]

Refer to my previous posts where I discuss the validity of homework in language and math.

However this is not graded, at least not where I go to school.
The rare occasions where it is, you could not do any of it and still get an A.

Then your school is a shit school, at least as far as those classes go. If an engineer is able to get through a class without applying what they know (normally though multiple different problems) they are not someone I would trust to build anything. Math people do not necessarily face the same issues, but again they learn by doing basic problems, on which they build the rest of their career. What school do you go to that engineering students don't have to actually apply what they learn in class.

As I've said (I believe in the previous post), this is all about a different definition of what homework is.

Because obviously you have to apply what you have learned.

Soooo.... Yeeeeahhhh...

[Gingeska]

Well I think that's the source of this disagreement.

Probably because you have no experience in the STEM fields. If an engineering student wants to be able to do actual research, they must first learn the basics. If they want to understand the basics they must apply what is taught in class actual problems. If they do not try to apply what they learn, there is no way they will be able to learn the material.

So..... Yeahhhh.... Yeahhhhhhhh...

Read..... Yeah....

[Neutraligon]

Then your school is a shit school, at least as far as those classes go. If an engineer is able to get through a class without applying what they know (normally though multiple different problems) they are not someone I would trust to build anything. Math people do not necessarily face the same issues, but again they learn by doing basic problems, on which they build the rest of their career. What school do you go to that engineering students don't have to actually apply what they learn in class.

As I've said (I believe in the previous post), this is all about a different definition of what homework is.

Because obviously you have to apply what you have learned.

Soooo.... Yeeeeahhhh...

I know very few people who use your definition of homework. Those math problems you got in high school, those where application of what is taught in class. Those book reports, those where applications of what was taught in class. Those science papers, also applications. The science problems you got, also applications.

[Alcase]

I consider homework to be doing any work assigned in class to be done on the student time. A research paper performed for class is still homework.

Well I think that's the source of this disagreement.

Why do you believe that when you take a worksheet home to do on your own time, and not class-time, it is not homework?

[The Flood]

Probably not, though schools need to majorly scale back the emphasis on math. All math classes after basic algebra should be electives, and should not be required by universities unless the classes one is seeking heavily involve math.