I'm a biological naturalist, but again, if you've been following what I've been writing to Sociobiology, Y' = Y, so it hardly makes a difference at all, except on perception, and on explanation.
Advertisement
by Arkolon » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:22 pm
by Arkolon » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:24 pm
Conscentia wrote:Arkolon wrote:A society is a large group of individuals. Law can be defined between two people. Law can be defined by three people. Law can be defined by whoever >50%+1 of people want to define the law. Law is, after all, decided by the state, ultraminimal states, or polycentric legal institutions. It is defined by legal institutions, which "society" isn't.
A heap of sand is a sorites.
What?
I thought I made it clear to you that I wasn't being vague at all.
by Twilight Imperium » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:26 pm
Conscentia wrote:I thought I made it clear to you that I wasn't being vague at all.
by Conscentia » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:00 pm
Arkolon wrote:Conscentia wrote:Why do you keep misinterpreting me? I use simple language most of the time, and generally define the non-simple terms.
I never said survival was the reason to be. I was referring to evolution and natural selection.Conscentia wrote:the human conscience serves to benefit our survival as a species, so it [ethical nihilism and ethical descriptivism] makes complete sense for an ethological standpoint.
The human conscience serves to benefit our social extroversion, and ethics are ultimately based on how to live within societies and with other people, not our survival. A man can have all the food and drink they need to live adequately, but that means nothing without social interaction. Social interaction is facilitated by, and actually justified by, a principle of nonviolence-- a harm principle. Ethical bases are foundations for human social interaction, and how people should act towards one another is a legitimate viewpoint depending on the axioms we start with. You're making the wild assumption that all prescriptivist ethics (one ought not rape, murder, pillage, etc) rely on "baseless" assumptions, but that is just incorrect. One ought not rape because that is not how social interaction functions. One ought not rape, not only for that, but also because the axioms upon which the ethical bases are founded upon make rape a direct contravention of exactly that.
Arkolon wrote:That doesn't mean the fault was with nihilism.
I read Nietzsche, was all into this God is dead thing, had my first existential crisis, but then, later, when I properly got into philosophy and I learnt that Nietzsche was criticising the nihilists (his books are almost one big eloquent insult of anomie), I became disillusioned with what it was I saw in nihilism. It took three, maybe four actually, university conferences for the speaker to explain that Nietzsche's Superman (Surhomme) was the man that overcame nihilism, that realised the futility of focusing on the nothing, and he who finds meaning for themselves and not nowhere at all. Nietzsche was not a nihilist. In any case, it is severely contended whether or not he was a nihilist. Nietzsche was a huge critic of nihilism, and advocating nihilism in the twenty-first century, especially so because one has read Nietzsche, is nothing but a portrayal of a total misunderstanding of philosophy and of the texts you have supposedly read.
And to think I once thought of painting his portrait on my wall as a tribute to nihilism-- pah! I pity the nihilists that have not yet understood just how deep Thus Spake Zarathusra really is.
Misc. Test Results And Assorted Other | The NSG Soviet Last Updated: Test Results (2018/02/02) | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
by Shilya » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:00 pm
Arkolon wrote:Shilya wrote:Exclusive right to usage doesn't also mean ownership. I'd say humans are unowned but have a permanent, unrevokable right to the usage of their own body, mainly because what you own, you also can sell.
Eh, it sort of does. I'm actually readily confident in that being the definition of ownership, even.
by Conscentia » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:03 pm
Arkolon wrote:Conscentia wrote:What?
I thought I made it clear to you that I wasn't being vague at all.
Law is defined by a legal institution, which a society isn't. A legal institution can "represent" a society, or about half of them at least, but that doesn't make society any more of a law-crafting superorganism.
Misc. Test Results And Assorted Other | The NSG Soviet Last Updated: Test Results (2018/02/02) | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
by Conscentia » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:04 pm
Arkolon wrote:Conscentia wrote:But you can only personally advocate one perspective - the one that's yours. So either you've been lying about being a physicalist, or you've been a devil's advocate for dualism.
I'm a biological naturalist, but again, if you've been following what I've been writing to Sociobiology, Y' = Y, so it hardly makes a difference at all, except on perception, and on explanation.
Misc. Test Results And Assorted Other | The NSG Soviet Last Updated: Test Results (2018/02/02) | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
by Salandriagado » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:35 pm
by Arkolon » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:38 pm
by Sociobiology » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:18 pm
by Sociobiology » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:53 pm
Each and every (atheist) concept of property can be used to defend that one owns themselves.
you can't prove Y+X because it is not an argument. it has to be equal to something.
I wrote "is equal to an objectively true conclusion" in the same independent clause of the sentence, separated by the dependent clause below.
which in this case is what?
An analogy, maybe?
is equal to an objectively true conclusion.
what conclusion, that argument has no conclusion.
no you can't say it is true that is you again taking your conclusion (the thing being argued) as an assumption. because the only way you can demonstrate Y is if X and the conclusion are both known, which is not the case.
you just described begging the question.
X and the conclusion are known.
Y = relationship between body and mind (either we are our body (monistically) or our mind is reliant on the existence of the body (dualistically), which in both cases yields exclusive rights to ourselves as a result (which is ownership))
The conclusion = self-ownership.say X + Y = Z if X and Z are both in question you can't use one to support the other.
example
All dogs are red + Lassie was a dog = Lassie was red
is not a sound argument because both the first assumption and your conclusion are both in question (aka not treated as true), neither can be used to support the other.
For Y, you're either using a monist argument or a dualist argument.
There are no other alternatives.
For X, you're either alive, or you are not.
Each of these is true. There are no assumptions, only a total sum of two possibilities twice (and four total outcomes) Here, I'm going to draw a little picture for you in pixlr (mind the horrible lines...)(Image)
Y = Monism, but Y' = Dualism, which is what I talked about in our analogy just earlier.
by Salandriagado » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:50 am
Arkolon wrote:Salandriagado wrote:
No. Not even remotely. How the fuck did you get that from my post? I didn't reference self-ownership at all.
There is an exclusive right of use, which is a direct reference to self-ownership where those words first appeared, and you say that transferring rights to exclusive use don't necessarily transfer ownership-- which effectively concludes that there is, and will be, an ownership that is, in our example, not transferred.
Either that or you tried answering a question about self-ownership with an answer that hasn't got anything to do with self-ownership.
by Liberaxia » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:04 am
by Arkolon » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:16 am
Conscentia wrote:Arkolon wrote:
The human conscience serves to benefit our social extroversion, and ethics are ultimately based on how to live within societies and with other people, not our survival. A man can have all the food and drink they need to live adequately, but that means nothing without social interaction. Social interaction is facilitated by, and actually justified by, a principle of nonviolence-- a harm principle. Ethical bases are foundations for human social interaction, and how people should act towards one another is a legitimate viewpoint depending on the axioms we start with. You're making the wild assumption that all prescriptivist ethics (one ought not rape, murder, pillage, etc) rely on "baseless" assumptions, but that is just incorrect. One ought not rape because that is not how social interaction functions. One ought not rape, not only for that, but also because the axioms upon which the ethical bases are founded upon make rape a direct contravention of exactly that.
Er, "it" was referring to the existence of the human conscience, not ethical nihilism and descriptive ethics.
Conscentia wrote:the human conscience serves to benefit our survival as a species, so [the human conscience] makes complete sense for an ethological standpoint.
You are also mistaken about my assumptions. I assume nothing. Prescriptive ethics is based on the idea that there is such a thing as moral truth. I reject that baseless assertion.
Arkolon wrote:I read Nietzsche, was all into this God is dead thing, had my first existential crisis, but then, later, when I properly got into philosophy and I learnt that Nietzsche was criticising the nihilists (his books are almost one big eloquent insult of anomie), I became disillusioned with what it was I saw in nihilism. It took three, maybe four actually, university conferences for the speaker to explain that Nietzsche's Superman (Surhomme) was the man that overcame nihilism, that realised the futility of focusing on the nothing, and he who finds meaning for themselves and not nowhere at all. Nietzsche was not a nihilist. In any case, it is severely contended whether or not he was a nihilist. Nietzsche was a huge critic of nihilism, and advocating nihilism in the twenty-first century, especially so because one has read Nietzsche, is nothing but a portrayal of a total misunderstanding of philosophy and of the texts you have supposedly read.
And to think I once thought of painting his portrait on my wall as a tribute to nihilism-- pah! I pity the nihilists that have not yet understood just how deep Thus Spake Zarathusra really is.
I don't care about Nietzsche. My nihilism has nothing at all to do with that guy.
And btw, I already knew the Nietzsche was a critic of nihilism.
by Arkolon » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:26 am
Shilya wrote:Arkolon wrote:Eh, it sort of does. I'm actually readily confident in that being the definition of ownership, even.
I highly doubt that you'd define ownership in a means that doesn't permit you to change ownership. I'm pretty sure one of the essentials of ownership is the ability to change or revoke it.
There are things that are unowned, for example photons usually have no owner. I know that's a fairly vague thing to pull as example, it just serves to show that something can exist without having an owner.
A human is unowned because we as society agreed to this concept, for now.
We declared ownership of people as invalid and continued up to the point where you can't even own yourself (as opposed to earlier societies, where you could sell yourself, orcommunistdictatorial socialist societies, where you were essentially state property, the person being a means of production in a way).
That was a measure to prevent forcing the usage of the property rights on your own body.
We did, nevertheless, keep the exclusive usage rights. You can have those without having ownership, as shown by someone else,
and you can also hold them on unowned things (photons, to stick with that example, being used exclusively by you, and used up in the process, and no one can take the photons from you anymore)
Those usage rights can be used in someone elses favour, but never fully given away, because you'd need ownership to do that.
by Arkolon » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:36 am
by Arkolon » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:36 am
by Arkolon » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:37 am
by Arkolon » Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:19 am
Each and every (atheist) concept of property can be used to defend that one owns themselves.
except for the ones that enable slavery, treat women as property, treat children as property...
I wrote "is equal to an objectively true conclusion" in the same independent clause of the sentence, separated by the dependent clause below.
and I can write bananas taste like chicken that does not make it true.
you can't swap out arguments in a logical string and without changing soundness unless you are swapping an unfounded argument equally unfounded argument, in which case nothing changes just because both are unsound.
X and the conclusion are known.
self ownership is not know it is being debated, it is an unknown.
X is known, sorry reversed x and Y there. Y is the other unknown.
Y = relationship between body and mind (either we are our body (monistically) or our mind is reliant on the existence of the body (dualistically), which in both cases yields exclusive rights to ourselves as a result (which is ownership))
no it doesn't, one does not logically lead to the other.
your insistent claim this is true without ever attempting to demonstrate it is part of the problem.
The conclusion = self-ownership.
For Y, you're either using a monist argument or a dualist argument.
except neither one actually makes the string true, you claim it does, but have not demonstrated it.
your argument is 1or2+3=7
it doesnt matter which one you use, they do not lead to the conclusion.
There are no other alternatives.
thats a pretty bold claim.
it is also an argument form ignorance.
For X, you're either alive, or you are not.
which is not a binary condition but not really relevant to the argument.
Each of these is true. There are no assumptions, only a total sum of two possibilities twice (and four total outcomes) Here, I'm going to draw a little picture for you in pixlr (mind the horrible lines...)(Image)
which again is just claiming it is true without demonstrating it.
it is Ignoratio elenchi
your two propositions do not lead to your conclusion.
example
bananas are yellow, chili peppers contain capsaicin, therefore aliens built the pyramids.
Y = Monism, but Y' = Dualism, which is what I talked about in our analogy just earlier.
except neither one makes the statement true. whether or not they are true the stil don't lead to your conclusion.
by The Liberated Territories » Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:10 pm
by Twilight Imperium » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:27 pm
Arkolon wrote:Conscentia wrote:I'll concede this point.
So now we will have to go through the trouble of defining what is a legal institution, and what does being a legal institution entail. A legal institution is not a state. It is, put vaguely, an institution capable of defining or exercising law and justice, but that doesn't really help us. What does it take for someone, or something, to be a legal institution? If we are to include Weberian statelessness, ie the state of nature (which we ought to), then it would make absolutely no sense for only states to be considered legal institutions (because, eg polycentric law). A state enforces legal practices or legal institutions. I mean, from what I can conclude here, every single individual capable of signing a contract (either verbally or textually) is a legal institution, because they can set the legal parameters between parties in a contract, and the enforcement of these contracts are, in a state of nature, wholly up to them.
Thus, we can define a legal institution as any single individual, which makes ownership, property, and their enforcements and definitions thereof, up to them.
by Sociobiology » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:22 am
by Sociobiology » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:49 am
Those would be logically inconsistent,
depending upon which axioms their concepts of ownership and property are based. Not to mention that I doubt the women, children, or slaves would see this as a fair system,
and would thus be an illegitimate one at that.
There are only two ways to approach the mind-body problem: monism (M), or dualism (D),
and there is only a mind-body problem in that which exists (X; being alive). D + X = a conclusion, which in our case is self-ownership. Dualism, as we both know, is incorrect since the technological advancement in neurology. However, it is very possible, and this thread is dedicated to, replacing D with M, so that M + X = the very same conclusion. Monism, as we both agree, is not incorrect, or at least far less so than dualism. Both yield the same conclusion, which, functionally, makes D = M-- which should remind you of Y' = Y.
Self-ownership is the conclusion. Figuratively speaking, the "=" in Y + X = self-ownership is what is at debate.
Y is either dualism or monism, which are (functionally) interchangeable for our purposes.
I left out the whole working out part (the axiomatic lists...) in favour of a more brief post, but I have given my working out many times before.
except neither one actually makes the string true, you claim it does, but have not demonstrated it.
your argument is 1or2+3=7
it doesnt matter which one you use, they do not lead to the conclusion.
Y' or Y + 1 = Y + 1, where Y' = Y. It really isn't that complicated. The purpose of Y is to show that there is more than just mind-body dualism.
thats a pretty bold claim.
it is also an argument form ignorance.
Objectivity freaking you out again.
which is not a binary condition but not really relevant to the argument.
"Functionally", yes, it is. You're either conscious or you're not.
which again is just claiming it is true without demonstrating it.
it is Ignoratio elenchi
your two propositions do not lead to your conclusion.
example
bananas are yellow, chili peppers contain capsaicin, therefore aliens built the pyramids.
So, I'm guessing, you weren't paying attention to every other post I make in this thread and what you do follow you don't actually understand?
except neither one makes the statement true. whether or not they are true the stil don't lead to your conclusion.
Yes, they do. I have shown this many times.
by Conscentia » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:45 am
Arkolon wrote:Conscentia wrote:I'll concede this point.
So now we will have to go through the trouble of defining what is a legal institution, and what does being a legal institution entail. A legal institution is not a state. It is, put vaguely, an institution capable of defining or exercising law and justice, but that doesn't really help us. What does it take for someone, or something, to be a legal institution? If we are to include Weberian statelessness, ie the state of nature (which we ought to), then it would make absolutely no sense for only states to be considered legal institutions (because, eg polycentric law). A state enforces legal practices or legal institutions. I mean, from what I can conclude here, every single individual capable of signing a contract (either verbally or textually) is a legal institution, because they can set the legal parameters between parties in a contract, and the enforcement of these contracts are, in a state of nature, wholly up to them.
Thus, we can define a legal institution as any single individual, which makes ownership, property, and their enforcements and definitions thereof, up to them.
Misc. Test Results And Assorted Other | The NSG Soviet Last Updated: Test Results (2018/02/02) | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
by Conscentia » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:52 am
Arkolon wrote:Conscentia wrote:Er, "it" was referring to the existence of the human conscience, not ethical nihilism and descriptive ethics.Conscentia wrote:the human conscience serves to benefit our survival as a species, so [the human conscience] makes complete sense for an ethological standpoint.
The human conscience serves to benefit our survival, so the human conscience makes complete sense [sic]?
Arkolon wrote:You are also mistaken about my assumptions. I assume nothing. Prescriptive ethics is based on the idea that there is such a thing as moral truth. I reject that baseless assertion.
There is such a thing as a truth. In fact, there are many truths. From these truths, you base your ethics. That is the point of living in a community, and with other people. It is the point in having an ethical basis.
Arkolon wrote:I don't care about Nietzsche. My nihilism has nothing at all to do with that guy.
And btw, I already knew the Nietzsche was a critic of nihilism.
So who was it?
Misc. Test Results And Assorted Other | The NSG Soviet Last Updated: Test Results (2018/02/02) | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
Advertisement
Users browsing this forum: Ineva, Kerwa, Stellar Colonies, The Black Forrest, The Two Jerseys, Tiami
Advertisement