Neo-Conservatism: Bomb this thread, we have Oil

[Kravanica]

Uh... Yeah. The actual citizens of this country deserve more liberty from its government than foreigners do.

That's how basically every country is.

And countries have borders for a reason. We get to impose our laws inside of them, not outside.

Yeah. I know. That's... Kind of what we do.

[Kravanica]

Uh... Yeah. The actual citizens of this country deserve more liberty from its government than foreigners do.

That's how basically every country is.

1. Nationalistic Nonsense doesn't trump inalienable rights, does it?

How, exactly?

2. Military is part of the state. Bigger, Stronger Military=Bigger, Stronger State. Big State="Big Government". You cannot be for small government, which is really a libertarian claim anyway, and be for "strong defense" or whatever euphemism for the military-industrial complex Neocons use nowadays.

1. Who said anything about nationalism?

2. The state and the government are kind of two separate things, you know.

[The Lithuanian-Surinamese Caliphate]

And countries have borders for a reason. We get to impose our laws inside of them, not outside.

Yeah. I know. That's... Kind of what we do.

Do you think that Iraq is/was within US borders?

[Kravanica]

Yeah. I know. That's... Kind of what we do.

Do you think that Iraq is/was within US borders?

It was a war, dude. We gave their state back to them anyway.

[The New Sea Territory]

1. Nationalistic Nonsense doesn't trump inalienable rights, does it?



2. Military is part of the state. Bigger, Stronger Military=Bigger, Stronger State. Big State="Big Government". You cannot be for small government, which is really a libertarian claim anyway, and be for "strong defense" or whatever euphemism for the military-industrial complex Neocons use nowadays.

1. Who said anything about nationalism?

2. The state and the government are kind of two separate things, you know.

1. You did, saying people from a country deserve more liberty from that government than foreigners. Textbook American Nationalism.

2. No, they aren't. The Federal Government is "The State", in real world terms. In America, I would say "The Federal Government".

[The New Sea Territory]

Do you think that Iraq is/was within US borders?

It was a war, dude. We gave their state back to them anyway.

So you just agreed that Iraq had it's own borders yet you are saying "it was war, dude" to defend violation of those borders? Logic must never have entered your train of thought.

[Kravanica]

1. Who said anything about nationalism?

2. The state and the government are kind of two separate things, you know.

1. You did, saying people from a country deserve more liberty from that government than foreigners. Textbook American Nationalism.

2. No, they aren't. The Federal Government is "The State", in real world terms. In America, I would say "The Federal Government".

1. That's how countries work. Governments have a duty first and foremost to their own people. Nationalism doesn't come into it. Like, at all.

2. No, "The State" is the United States of America. The federal government governs "The State" at the federal level.

[Kravanica]

It was a war, dude. We gave their state back to them anyway.

So you just agreed that Iraq had it's own borders yet you are saying "it was war, dude" to defend violation of those borders? Logic must never have entered your train of thought.

Yes. Countries sometimes violate each other's borders during wars. I'm not entirely sure you understand how wars work.

[The Lithuanian-Surinamese Caliphate]

Do you think that Iraq is/was within US borders?

It was a war, dude. We gave their state back to them anyway.

A costly, unnecessary, and immoral war. "It was a war, dude" isn't a very good justification, and we gave them back their state in a worse condition than before. Because of the war, it's deteriorated even more since then. All because we tried to impose our ideals on them.

[The New Sea Territory]

1. You did, saying people from a country deserve more liberty from that government than foreigners. Textbook American Nationalism.

2. No, they aren't. The Federal Government is "The State", in real world terms. In America, I would say "The Federal Government".

1. That's how countries work. Governments have a duty first and foremost to their own people. Nationalism doesn't come into it. Like, at all.

2. No, "The State" is the United States of America. The federal government governs the United States at the federal level.

1. No, no it isn't. Plenty of countries respect individual liberty of people both inside and out of their country. America is not one of them.

2. So the Federal Government IS the State, since it is the controlling body of the State.

[The New Sea Territory]

So you just agreed that Iraq had it's own borders yet you are saying "it was war, dude" to defend violation of those borders? Logic must never have entered your train of thought.

Yes. Countries sometimes violate each other's borders during wars. I'm not entirely sure you understand how wars work.

You're going off the assumption that the war was justified, and contradicting yourself by saying you respect borders but rationalize breaking them.

[Kravanica]

It was a war, dude. We gave their state back to them anyway.

A costly, unnecessary, and immoral war. "It was a war, dude" isn't a very good justification, and we gave them back their state in a worse condition than before. Because of the war, it's deteriorated even more since then. All because we tried to impose our ideals on them.

We weren't trying to impose anything on them. The war was a mistake. Everyone knows that. But we went in because we thought they had nuclear weapons, something very serious.

[Kravanica]

1. That's how countries work. Governments have a duty first and foremost to their own people. Nationalism doesn't come into it. Like, at all.

2. No, "The State" is the United States of America. The federal government governs the United States at the federal level.

1. No, no it isn't. Plenty of countries respect individual liberty of people both inside and out of their country. America is not one of them.

2. So the Federal Government IS the State, since it is the controlling body of the State.

1. Immigrants who are not yet citizens can be deported. Citizens can't. And, uh, pretty sure America is.

2. No, it isn't. They're two separate things. Accept that you're wrong so we can move on.

[Kravanica]

Yes. Countries sometimes violate each other's borders during wars. I'm not entirely sure you understand how wars work.

You're going off the assumption that the war was justified, and contradicting yourself by saying you respect borders but rationalize breaking them.

I never said the war was justified. Stop with the strawman.

[Organized States]

A costly, unnecessary, and immoral war. "It was a war, dude" isn't a very good justification, and we gave them back their state in a worse condition than before. Because of the war, it's deteriorated even more since then. All because we tried to impose our ideals on them.

We weren't trying to impose anything on them. The war was a mistake. Everyone knows that. But we went in because we thought they had nuclear weapons, something very serious.

Incorrect, We believed Saddam possessed Chemical and Biological Weapons, which are clear violations of UN treaties and guidelines.

I personally find it great when the world, or at least parts of it, help out people who can't defend themselves (particularly the Yazidis for example).

[Kravanica]

We weren't trying to impose anything on them. The war was a mistake. Everyone knows that. But we went in because we thought they had nuclear weapons, something very serious.

Incorrect, We believed Saddam possessed Chemical and Biological Weapons, which are clear violations of UN treaties and guidelines.

I personally find it great when the world, or at least parts of it, help out people who can't defend themselves (particularly the Yazidis for example).

Chemical weapons? I thought it was nuclear weapons?

[The New Sea Territory]

You're going off the assumption that the war was justified, and contradicting yourself by saying you respect borders but rationalize breaking them.

I never said the war was justified. Stop with the strawman.

"It's war, dude" assumes that this war was just and called for, and rationalizes human rights and border violations.

1. No, no it isn't. Plenty of countries respect individual liberty of people both inside and out of their country. America is not one of them.

2. So the Federal Government IS the State, since it is the controlling body of the State.

1. Immigrants who are not yet citizens can be deported. Citizens can't. And, uh, pretty sure America is.

2. No, it isn't. They're two separate things. Accept that you're wrong so we can move on.

1. Stating that something is or can be does not justify it's existence. And America is most definitely not. This is not really debatable. If you want to argue this point, tell me how America supports liberty outside of our borders when we propped up dictators throughout the Cold War.

2. So, the American government, which is democratically elected, must be an extension of the will of the state. Thus, it is under the realm of "state".

[The New Sea Territory]

Incorrect, We believed Saddam possessed Chemical and Biological Weapons, which are clear violations of UN treaties and guidelines.

I personally find it great when the world, or at least parts of it, help out people who can't defend themselves (particularly the Yazidis for example).

Chemical weapons? I thought it was nuclear weapons?

Both those two and WMDs were all interchangeable terms used by neocons.

[The Lithuanian-Surinamese Caliphate]

A costly, unnecessary, and immoral war. "It was a war, dude" isn't a very good justification, and we gave them back their state in a worse condition than before. Because of the war, it's deteriorated even more since then. All because we tried to impose our ideals on them.

We weren't trying to impose anything on them. The war was a mistake. Everyone knows that. But we went in because we thought they had nuclear weapons, something very serious.

Well, some people, like the OP of this thread, think the war was just swell. I assumed you were one of those people.

Also, Pakistan has nuclear weapons. North Korea has nuclear weapons. Russia, China, India, the UK, France, and by most accounts, Israel, have nuclear weapons. The USA has nuclear weapons. Should all of these countries be invaded as well, since we are actually 100% certain that they do have nukes (possibly excepting Israel)?

Even if Iraq did have nuclear weapons, invading them over it was not the best course of action. I highly doubt they would ever use them against us or anything; MAD is a pretty well-established idea.

[The Orson Empire]

Do you think that Iraq is/was within US borders?

It was a war, dude. We gave their state back to them anyway.

It's not that simple.

Our entire reason for going to war was because, allegedly, there were WMD's in Iraq. No WMD's were ever found. So essentially, we invaded Iraq arguably for shits and giggles, causing immense turmoil in Iraq which has led to the rise of ISIS.

[The New Sea Territory]

It was a war, dude. We gave their state back to them anyway.

It's not that simple.

Our entire reason for going to war was because, allegedly, there were WMD's in Iraq. No WMD's were ever found. So essentially, we invaded Iraq arguably for shits and giggles, causing immense turmoil in Iraq which has led to the rise of ISIS.

So, if you're an optimist, Iraq was a horrible failure.

If you're a realist, Iraq was invaded for nefarious reasons.

[Organized States]

Incorrect, We believed Saddam possessed Chemical and Biological Weapons, which are clear violations of UN treaties and guidelines.

I personally find it great when the world, or at least parts of it, help out people who can't defend themselves (particularly the Yazidis for example).

Chemical weapons? I thought it was nuclear weapons?

Yup, his Chemical Weapons were a huge concern, and well, we knew he had them, he massacred the Kurds with them quite often. We just weren't able to find all of them (contrary to popular belief). He did have them, and I'm pretty sure we found more than a few, but one of the main theories is that Saddam's forces smuggled them into Syria (who was a bit more Saddam friendly than originally thought at the time).

[Kravanica]

I never said the war was justified. Stop with the strawman.

1. "It's war, dude" assumes that this war was just and called for, and rationalizes human rights and border violations.

1. Immigrants who are not yet citizens can be deported. Citizens can't. And, uh, pretty sure America is.

2. No, it isn't. They're two separate things. Accept that you're wrong so we can move on.

2. Stating that something is or can be does not justify it's existence. And America is most definitely not. This is not really debatable. If you want to argue this point, tell me how America supports liberty outside of our borders when we propped up dictators throughout the Cold War.

3. So, the American government, which is democratically elected, must be an extension of the will of the state. Thus, it is under the realm of "state".

1. Was it correct, no? Was it justifiable? That's a matter of debate. We believed they had weapons of mass destruction and they refused to allow us to send UN inspectors in.

2. That was a different time. We were trying to stop the spread of the Soviet Union, a tyrannical and evil nation that imposed it's will upon thousands of people and killed and slaughtered millions.

3. Dude... The government administrated the state. It isn't the actual state itself. Please, for the love of all that is Satanic, just admit that you're wrong.

[The Orson Empire]

It's not that simple.

Our entire reason for going to war was because, allegedly, there were WMD's in Iraq. No WMD's were ever found. So essentially, we invaded Iraq arguably for shits and giggles, causing immense turmoil in Iraq which has led to the rise of ISIS.

So, if you're an optimist, Iraq was a horrible failure.

If you're a realist, Iraq was invaded for nefarious reasons.

Iraq was a failure. The U.S. and its allies gained little, if anything, from the invasion, except dead bodies.

[Organized States]

It was a war, dude. We gave their state back to them anyway.

It's not that simple.

Our entire reason for going to war was because, allegedly, there were WMD's in Iraq. No WMD's were ever found. So essentially, we invaded Iraq arguably for shits and giggles, causing immense turmoil in Iraq which has led to the rise of ISIS.

He did, have WMDs. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_ch ... ns_program