The Mod-Sanctioned Scottish Referendum Megathread

[The Nihilistic view]

I don't see how this is to do with Scotland's influence in Europe.

My point is that there are periods when the UK is represented by a Labour government with many Scottish MPs - and Scotland is thus represented in Europe just as well by the PM, perhaps even better, than by a less-powerful, less-influential FM (or PM of an independent Scotland). Scotland has a major effect on UK elections - Cement Attlee would be the last Labour PM without Scotland - and therefore Scotland benefits from having a louder voice as part of the UK, and a pool of 73 MEPs rather than 6 or 13.

Wrong, Blair would be the last PM without Scotland. (Well Brown technically but he is a Scottish MP so would not have been in the commons to take over from Blair. So I say Blair.)

[Manchovia]

My point is that there are periods when the UK is represented by a Labour government with many Scottish MPs - and Scotland is thus represented in Europe just as well by the PM, perhaps even better, than by a less-powerful, less-influential FM (or PM of an independent Scotland). Scotland has a major effect on UK elections - Cement Attlee would be the last Labour PM without Scotland - and therefore Scotland benefits from having a louder voice as part of the UK, and a pool of 73 MEPs rather than 6 or 13.

Wrong, Blair would be the last PM without Scotland. (Well Brown technically but he is a Scottish MP so would not have been in the commons to take over from Blair. So I say Blair.)

I apologise - you are correct (although the 2005 majority would only have been 22 - workable but difficult). Howard Wilson would have lost his first election, but won his second (although whether he would have won it without his first two years is questionable). He would have lost in February 1974, and there would have been a hung parliament in October 1974.

Despite this, my point still stands that Scotland has an effect on UK Elections, and that Scotland is better served by being part of the UK, with a louder voice and more MEPs as a whole, than by being Independent, with fewer MEPs and with a smaller voice for the Government.

[Manchovia]

On another note, do you think that the UKIP rally in Glasgow will help or hurt Better Together? The campaign has certainly been very keen to disown it, and I suspect that any benefits will be highly limited compared to the ammunition it gives the Yes Campaign.

[Mons Garle]

On another note, do you think that the UKIP rally in Glasgow will help or hurt Better Together? The campaign has certainly been very keen to disown it, and I suspect that any benefits will be highly limited compared to the ammunition it gives the Yes Campaign.

Well I'd say it will definitely hurt the Better Together lot - UKIP's been hammered in the press recently for a string of gaffes, including that crazy Dr Julia Gasper and her disgusting comments while she was part of the Oxford branch, as well as the fact Nigel has undemocratically turfed Roger Lord in Clacton to replace him with ex-Tory Douglas Carswell. I think that kind of stuff being indirectly attached to Better Together will only harm it. Scotland, for better or for worse, (better in my opinion) is a lot less right-wing populist than say the East Midlands or South East of England.

[The Celtic League]

So? This doesn't change the fact that London has treated Scotland like shit in the past —which, as far as I know, is something that's still well alive in the collective memory of the Scottish people — and that they haven't made much of an effort in correcting their past mistakes, besides setting up a virtually powerless parliament in Scotland.

The fact that nobody involved in that is alive today doesn't annuel the consequences of their actions.

I need an example of them treating Scotland 'like shit'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

[The Celtic League]

On another note, do you think that the UKIP rally in Glasgow will help or hurt Better Together? The campaign has certainly been very keen to disown it, and I suspect that any benefits will be highly limited compared to the ammunition it gives the Yes Campaign.

Hurt. They are worse than the conservatives. The majority of people here don't like either. It gives the yes campaign ammo. lots of it.

[Kaztropol]

I need an example of them treating Scotland 'like shit'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

The highland clearances was ill-treatment of poor Scottish people, by rich Scottish people.

[New Densaner]

Vote Yes!

[Jinwoy]

Vote Yes!

No.
Why?

[New Densaner]

Vote Yes!

No.
Why?

Because other countries can do it.

[Jinwoy]

No.
Why?

Because other countries can do it.

That doesn't make any sense.
If other countries jumped off a bridge, should Scotland? Because that is essentially what this vote is. Its a vote to break up a perfectly fine union for no real reason other than 'hur dur muh nationalism'.

[New Densaner]

Because other countries can do it.

That doesn't make any sense.
If other countries jumped off a bridge, should Scotland? Because that is essentially what this vote is. Its a vote to break up a perfectly fine union for no real reason other than 'hur dur muh nationalism'.

Wow. Great argument. So other countries that are the same size as Scotland being independent isn't a positive argument?

Perfectly fine union? Don't make me laugh. Oops too late -

[Jinwoy]

That doesn't make any sense.
If other countries jumped off a bridge, should Scotland? Because that is essentially what this vote is. Its a vote to break up a perfectly fine union for no real reason other than 'hur dur muh nationalism'.

Wow. Great argument. So other countries that are the same size as Scotland being independent isn't a positive argument?

Perfectly fine union? Don't make me laugh. Oops too late -

Economically stable, politically liberal, no massive demonstrations against the government... yeah, perfectly fine union. Why wouldn't it be?

Also, can you give some examples to "other countries that are the same size as Scotland being independent isn't a positive argument".
Can you give one reason why Scotland should be independent and how this will bring untold benefits of treasure, unity and prosperity to the region? No? That's what I thought.

[New Densaner]

Wow. Great argument. So other countries that are the same size as Scotland being independent isn't a positive argument?

Perfectly fine union? Don't make me laugh. Oops too late -

Economically stable, politically liberal, no massive demonstrations against the government... yeah, perfectly fine union. Why wouldn't it be?

Also, can you give some examples to "other countries that are the same size as Scotland being independent isn't a positive argument".
Can you give one reason why Scotland should be independent and how this will bring untold benefits of treasure, unity and prosperity to the region ? No? That's what I thought.

Well you can start with Norway. Has the same population as Scotland. They have an oil fund currently worth nearly $900 billion. Our great unionist government pissed the oil reserves up the wall and sold a massive chunk of the gold at rock bottom prices. Tell me again about economic stability. Pfft!

Yeah. We get to choose our own government. Take the current shower. If you subtract all Tory and Lib Dem MPs outside England and give them to the opposition they still have a majority based on purely English votes. We didn't vote for them. We don't like their policies. But we have to put up with it because of the friggin union. Don't put words in my mouth. The vision of "untold benefits of treasure, unity and prosperity" is your fantasy. And Scotland isn't a region it's a country.

[Jinwoy]

Economically stable, politically liberal, no massive demonstrations against the government... yeah, perfectly fine union. Why wouldn't it be?

Also, can you give some examples to "other countries that are the same size as Scotland being independent isn't a positive argument".
Can you give one reason why Scotland should be independent and how this will bring untold benefits of treasure, unity and prosperity to the region ? No? That's what I thought.

Well you can start with Norway. Has the same population as Scotland. They have an oil fund currently worth nearly $900 billion. Our great unionist government pissed the oil reserves up the wall and sold a massive chunk of the gold at rock bottom prices. Tell me again about economic stability. Pfft!

Yeah. We get to choose our own government. Take the current shower. If you subtract all Tory and Lib Dem MPs outside England and give them to the opposition they still have a majority based on purely English votes. We didn't vote for them. We don't like their policies. But we have to put up with it because of the friggin union. Don't put words in my mouth. The vision of "untold benefits of treasure, unity and prosperity" is your fantasy. And Scotland isn't a region it's a country.

Better economic stability than a good 2/3'rds of the world, probably higher, so yea.
Also, I fail to see how the Norwegian independence in 1905 is relevant AT ALL to Scotland today.
For one thing, Scotland's union with England was voluntary, unlike that of Norway and Sweden. See, Norway used to be in union with Denmark until certain circumstances led to Norway being handed to Sweden without the consult of Norway first. Interesting stuff.
Come up with a better reason than just nationalistic primal pride and I might support Scottish independence. Because frankly, its a childish reason to want to split up from someone who has brought massive benefits to the country, like not being Bankrupt or being a part of France.

Also, you know pretty little about Scottish politics if you think they have zero representation.

[New Densaner]

Well you can start with Norway. Has the same population as Scotland. They have an oil fund currently worth nearly $900 billion. Our great unionist government pissed the oil reserves up the wall and sold a massive chunk of the gold at rock bottom prices. Tell me again about economic stability. Pfft!

Yeah. We get to choose our own government. Take the current shower. If you subtract all Tory and Lib Dem MPs outside England and give them to the opposition they still have a majority based on purely English votes. We didn't vote for them. We don't like their policies. But we have to put up with it because of the friggin union. Don't put words in my mouth. The vision of "untold benefits of treasure, unity and prosperity" is your fantasy. And Scotland isn't a region it's a country.

Better economic stability than a good 2/3'rds of the world, probably higher, so yea.
Also, I fail to see how the Norwegian independence in 1905 is relevant AT ALL to Scotland today.
For one thing, Scotland's union with England was voluntary, unlike that of Norway and Sweden. See, Norway used to be in union with Denmark until certain circumstances led to Norway being handed to Sweden without the consult of Norway first. Interesting stuff.
Come up with a better reason than just nationalistic primal pride and I might support Scottish independence. Because frankly, its a childish reason to want to split up from someone who has brought massive benefits to the country, like not being Bankrupt or being a part of France.

Uh huh. Try addressing my points on the economy.
Norway - Small country, access to oil. Didn't waste it. How much is the UK currently in debt?
Voluntary? Nope. There wasn't a referendum in 1707. This is the first time we've actually been specifically asked about the union in 307 years.
I did give you a reason. Democracy not nationalism. We get to choose our own government.

We have 10% of MPs. 10% representation.

[Jinwoy]

Better economic stability than a good 2/3'rds of the world, probably higher, so yea.
Also, I fail to see how the Norwegian independence in 1905 is relevant AT ALL to Scotland today.
For one thing, Scotland's union with England was voluntary, unlike that of Norway and Sweden. See, Norway used to be in union with Denmark until certain circumstances led to Norway being handed to Sweden without the consult of Norway first. Interesting stuff.
Come up with a better reason than just nationalistic primal pride and I might support Scottish independence. Because frankly, its a childish reason to want to split up from someone who has brought massive benefits to the country, like not being Bankrupt or being a part of France.

Uh huh. Try addressing my points on the economy.
Norway - Small country, access to oil. Didn't waste it. How much is the UK currently in debt?
Voluntary? Nope. There wasn't a referendum in 1707. This is the first time we've actually been specifically asked about the union in 307 years.
I did give you a reason. Democracy not nationalism. We get to choose our own government.

We have 10% of MPs. 10% representation.

What is the UK's credit rating? AAA according to: Standard & Poor's, DBRS, JCR, several more gave around the same score.
If you're going to bring up debt, you bring up credit rating.
A credit rating is how well your country pays off debt, how much it can take, how well it would do with debt. Debt generates interest, builds public and private sector trust and allows the government to spend money it doesn't have to continue a country's proper operation.
Scotlands predicted credit rating, according to DBRS and the World Bank, would be A+ - several points below a united UK (Source: World bank, 2013). How's that?

Also, its not like you have no governance - Scotland has 9% of the population of the UK. It only needs that much representation. lol.
Its fair. You wouldn't give Scotland 50% representation, because then it would be unfair to the populations of England, Wales and Northern Ireland who lose representation.

[Pesda]

Well you can start with Norway. Has the same population as Scotland. They have an oil fund currently worth nearly $900 billion. Our great unionist government pissed the oil reserves up the wall and sold a massive chunk of the gold at rock bottom prices. Tell me again about economic stability. Pfft!

Yeah. We get to choose our own government. Take the current shower. If you subtract all Tory and Lib Dem MPs outside England and give them to the opposition they still have a majority based on purely English votes. We didn't vote for them. We don't like their policies. But we have to put up with it because of the friggin union. Don't put words in my mouth. The vision of "untold benefits of treasure, unity and prosperity" is your fantasy. And Scotland isn't a region it's a country.

Better economic stability than a good 2/3'rds of the world, probably higher, so yea.
Also, I fail to see how the Norwegian independence in 1905 is relevant AT ALL to Scotland today.
For one thing, Scotland's union with England was voluntary, unlike that of Norway and Sweden. See, Norway used to be in union with Denmark until certain circumstances led to Norway being handed to Sweden without the consult of Norway first. Interesting stuff.
Come up with a better reason than just nationalistic primal pride and I might support Scottish independence. Because frankly, its a childish reason to want to split up from someone who has brought massive benefits to the country, like not being Bankrupt or being a part of France.

Also, you know pretty little about Scottish politics if you think they have zero representation.

I'm sure that Scotland would continue not being a part of France if it were independent.

[Utceforp]

I need an example of them treating Scotland 'like shit'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

All the people involved in that are long dead. Nobody around today is at fault or has been wronged. Can you provide an example of the current, living English government treating the current, living people of Scotland "like shit"?

[Jinwoy]

Better economic stability than a good 2/3'rds of the world, probably higher, so yea.
Also, I fail to see how the Norwegian independence in 1905 is relevant AT ALL to Scotland today.
For one thing, Scotland's union with England was voluntary, unlike that of Norway and Sweden. See, Norway used to be in union with Denmark until certain circumstances led to Norway being handed to Sweden without the consult of Norway first. Interesting stuff.
Come up with a better reason than just nationalistic primal pride and I might support Scottish independence. Because frankly, its a childish reason to want to split up from someone who has brought massive benefits to the country, like not being Bankrupt or being a part of France.

Also, you know pretty little about Scottish politics if you think they have zero representation.

I'm sure that Scotland would continue not being a part of France if it were independent.

The point was that Scotland wouldn't be where it was if it wasn't for the Union. I'm assuming you know the history behind it.
Also read my latest post.

[Pesda]

I'm sure that Scotland would continue not being a part of France if it were independent.

The point was that Scotland wouldn't be where it was if it wasn't for the Union. I'm assuming you know the history behind it.
Also read my latest post.

If you're not saying that without the UK, Scotland would be a bankrupt part of France, why did you mention not "being part of France" a benefit of the Union?

[Jinwoy]

The point was that Scotland wouldn't be where it was if it wasn't for the Union. I'm assuming you know the history behind it.
Also read my latest post.

If you're not saying that without the UK, Scotland would be a bankrupt part of France, why did you mention not "being part of France" a benefit of the Union?

Because it probably would be without it? It was an exaggeration.
One of the reasons why Britain was so interested in Scotland is because of it being a potential ally of France. And, of course, marrying into the Royal Family of countries was a style of the time. xP

[Pesda]

If you're not saying that without the UK, Scotland would be a bankrupt part of France, why did you mention not "being part of France" a benefit of the Union?

Because it probably would be without it? It was an exaggeration.
One of the reasons why Britain was so interested in Scotland is because of it being a potential ally of France. And, of course, marrying into the Royal Family of countries was a style of the time. xP

So can you tell us, without exaggerating, what are the many benefits of the Union?

[Jinwoy]

Because it probably would be without it? It was an exaggeration.
One of the reasons why Britain was so interested in Scotland is because of it being a potential ally of France. And, of course, marrying into the Royal Family of countries was a style of the time. xP

So can you tell us, without exaggerating, what are the many benefits of the Union?

Not being bankrupt and taken over by someone else. Becoming a power on the world stage with an extremely small population. Have so much greater economic benefits, like having actual money to do stuff. More stability, politically and economically.
What aren't the benefits of being in a union? Where has Scotland come into a disadvantage from the union signing in contemporary society? Why split off possibly the best political marriage in the world over silly, childish nationalistic matters?
Do you even know the history behind the union signing?

[Slavonian kingdom]

According to the UK press if Scotland secedes Russia will invade it. How much is that likely to happen if Scotland secedes?