Abortion: human right?

[Othelos]

I wonder if he knows that a pregnancy has lasting effects on a woman. It's not just the 9 months' gestation. Receding gums, reduction of life span, heart problems, allergies that surface while pregnant and stick after child birth, epistomies, early onset of osteoporosis, early signs of diabetes.. all very real side-effects that are or can be long-term.

All true. Still not a justification for ending a life, especially one that will grow into a fully sentient being.

You can't use potential as an argument.

[Washington Resistance Army]

So having pre-marital sex means you'll have a failed marriage? I'm gonna guess you don't have a source to back up this bullshit?

Jesus told him.

Thanks Stag, you always open my eyes.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

So's the woman's. She too is a life. Why is the fetus's life more important than the woman's?

Have you ever tried talking to a fetus? Or asking a newborn a question?

No, because they cannot communicate, and if that life wishes to live then it has a right to life, and no one has a right over it.

Yes, a woman has a right over it because this fetus is dependent on her, it's using her body. She has all the right in the world to expel said fetus from her body if she so wishes.

[The Flood]

Because those signs equal life. Are you okay with ending a life to pursue a life of selfish desire?

It's not equal. The fetus is biologically dependent on the mother. And everything everyone does is selfish in some way.
And, if the woman doesn't think the potential child she would have to raise, would have a good enough environment for the child to turn out well, how is that selfish? She can have children later, when it makes sense to, and there is a good environment.

By that logic, we should go kill all the children in Africa because their environment isn't so nice.

Good job.

[Othelos]

I am attempting to discuss this without passion, but you seem intent on attempting to make this an argument rather than a discussion.

At any rate, half of the argument you presented was dependent on the premise that I want to make abortion illegal, thereby forcing women who want to have an abortion to try to attempt one without the assistance of medical professionals. Your premise is flawed. I simply believe that it is ethically reprehensible to have an abortion, and that there are many alternatives that should be explored--the first of which is practicing safe sex--before abortion should even be considered an option.

As far as the orphanage situation goes, I am also an advocate of the U.S. government doing a major rehaul of the foster care and orphanage system that is currently in use. I do not believe that the current system is functional, and many things need to be fixed. However, the reprehensible conditions of the foster care system do not justify the ending of a life, either.

Yeah, you're right, I am passionate. I am really fucking passionate about this. You want to know why?
Because on July 17th, 2010, I went on my very first date. And I was raped. And impregnated.
And I risked my life to not be pregnant. I swallowed so many pills, and I beat myself so hard I have organ damage.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" have taken every single clinic out of my town and within a 2 hour radius.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" made it impossible for me to get help.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" fucked me over so bad that I was prepared to die rather than give birth.
I was on the verge of homelessness, in high school, I am severely ill, and my family is emotionally abusive.
But, hey, better I die than get an abortion free of judgement.

So when you ask me why I'm passionate about this, when you wonder why I get riled up, I'm going to tell you the same thing over and over and over.
Because people who believe what you believe nearly cost me my life.

which state do you live in? :/

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Jesus told him.

Thanks Stag, you always open my eyes.

I am sworn by the Girl Scout code to fuck some shit up

[The Flood]

That's a life.

So's the woman's. She too is a life. Why is the fetus's life more important than the woman's?

It's not. They are equally important, that is why neither has the right to kill the other.

[Othelos]

It's not equal. The fetus is biologically dependent on the mother. And everything everyone does is selfish in some way.
And, if the woman doesn't think the potential child she would have to raise, would have a good enough environment for the child to turn out well, how is that selfish? She can have children later, when it makes sense to, and there is a good environment.

By that logic, we should go kill all the children in Africa because their environment isn't so nice.

Good job.

Fetuses aren't children. So no, false equivalency.

[Shilya]

Have you ever tried talking to a fetus? Or asking a newborn a question?

No, because they cannot communicate, and if that life wishes to live then it has a right to life, and no one has a right over it.

I have a right to not have my body be intruded by a fetus. I have a right to remove it. It doesn't get special privileges to my body.

And so does the fetus have a right to stay alive, to a certain extent. Rights need to be weighted against each other. Is one person being in temporary pain worth another one getting to live? In other words, does your right not to be in pain exceed that of the fetus to be alive?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Yeah, you're right, I am passionate. I am really fucking passionate about this. You want to know why?
Because on July 17th, 2010, I went on my very first date. And I was raped. And impregnated.
And I risked my life to not be pregnant. I swallowed so many pills, and I beat myself so hard I have organ damage.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" have taken every single clinic out of my town and within a 2 hour radius.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" made it impossible for me to get help.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" fucked me over so bad that I was prepared to die rather than give birth.
I was on the verge of homelessness, in high school, I am severely ill, and my family is emotionally abusive.
But, hey, better I die than get an abortion free of judgement.

So when you ask me why I'm passionate about this, when you wonder why I get riled up, I'm going to tell you the same thing over and over and over.
Because people who believe what you believe nearly cost me my life.

which state do you live in? :/

The fucking trash heap that is Tennessee. Get me the hell out.

[The New Sea Territory]

It's not equal. The fetus is biologically dependent on the mother. And everything everyone does is selfish in some way.
And, if the woman doesn't think the potential child she would have to raise, would have a good enough environment for the child to turn out well, how is that selfish? She can have children later, when it makes sense to, and there is a good environment.

By that logic, we should go kill all the children in Africa because their environment isn't so nice.

Good job.

Children in Africa are already BORN.

[The New Sea Territory]

which state do you live in? :/

The fucking trash heap that is Tennessee. Get me the hell out.

Oh Hey! Me too. Solidarity! Dealing with Bullshit in this hellhole!

[Othelos]

I have a right to not have my body be intruded by a fetus. I have a right to remove it. It doesn't get special privileges to my body.

And so does the fetus have a right to stay alive, to a certain extent. Rights need to be weighted against each other. Is one person being in temporary pain worth another one getting to live? In other words, does your right not to be in pain exceed that of the fetus to be alive?

Yes, because she has to consent to it being there in the first place.

[Othelos]

which state do you live in? :/

The fucking trash heap that is Tennessee. Get me the hell out.

come to NY, we'd love you

[The New Sea Territory]

So's the woman's. She too is a life. Why is the fetus's life more important than the woman's?

It's not. They are equally important, that is why neither has the right to kill the other.

So when the fetus will kill the mother, the mother can't kill the fetus? Or are your moral absolutes not-so-rigid after all?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

I have a right to not have my body be intruded by a fetus. I have a right to remove it. It doesn't get special privileges to my body.

And so does the fetus have a right to stay alive, to a certain extent. Rights need to be weighted against each other. Is one person being in temporary pain worth another one getting to live? In other words, does your right not to be in pain exceed that of the fetus to be alive?

Let's say a fetus has all the rights you have.
You don't have a right to my body.
Neither does the fetus.
If you are violating my right to bodily sovereignty, I have a right to make you stop.
I have a right to make the fetus stop, too.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

So's the woman's. She too is a life. Why is the fetus's life more important than the woman's?

It's not. They are equally important, that is why neither has the right to kill the other.

When feti stop depending on a woman's body to live from, then we can talk about rights. As it stands, the woman has a right on what happens in her body.

[Jelarais]

I am attempting to discuss this without passion, but you seem intent on attempting to make this an argument rather than a discussion.

At any rate, half of the argument you presented was dependent on the premise that I want to make abortion illegal, thereby forcing women who want to have an abortion to try to attempt one without the assistance of medical professionals. Your premise is flawed. I simply believe that it is ethically reprehensible to have an abortion, and that there are many alternatives that should be explored--the first of which is practicing safe sex--before abortion should even be considered an option.

As far as the orphanage situation goes, I am also an advocate of the U.S. government doing a major rehaul of the foster care and orphanage system that is currently in use. I do not believe that the current system is functional, and many things need to be fixed. However, the reprehensible conditions of the foster care system do not justify the ending of a life, either.

Yeah, you're right, I am passionate. I am really fucking passionate about this. You want to know why?
Because on July 17th, 2010, I went on my very first date. And I was raped. And impregnated.
And I risked my life to not be pregnant. I swallowed so many pills, and I beat myself so hard I have organ damage.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" have taken every single clinic out of my town and within a 2 hour radius.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" made it impossible for me to get help.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" fucked me over so bad that I was prepared to die rather than give birth.
I was on the verge of homelessness, in high school, I am severely ill, and my family is emotionally abusive.
But, hey, better I die than get an abortion free of judgement.

So when you ask me why I'm passionate about this, when you wonder why I get riled up, I'm going to tell you the same thing over and over and over.
Because people who believe what you believe nearly cost me my life.

I cannot change what those people did, and I will not apologize for behaviors that I have not engaged in. However, I do sympathize (not empathize--I can only imagine what you felt) with your situation. I actually do believe that, in the case of victims such as yourself, abortion is justified even if I am not fully comfortable with it. And human beings make judgements all the time about everything--there's nothing you do ever that is not judged on some level by those around you--so the notion of a judgement-free abortion is both laughable and pitiable.

However, death is never a good thing and it is never better than any other option. I apologize that you seem to believe that I want people who believe that abortion is right to die, as this is simply not the case.

[Deutsches Heilige Land]

I am attempting to discuss this without passion, but you seem intent on attempting to make this an argument rather than a discussion.

At any rate, half of the argument you presented was dependent on the premise that I want to make abortion illegal, thereby forcing women who want to have an abortion to try to attempt one without the assistance of medical professionals. Your premise is flawed. I simply believe that it is ethically reprehensible to have an abortion, and that there are many alternatives that should be explored--the first of which is practicing safe sex--before abortion should even be considered an option.

As far as the orphanage situation goes, I am also an advocate of the U.S. government doing a major rehaul of the foster care and orphanage system that is currently in use. I do not believe that the current system is functional, and many things need to be fixed. However, the reprehensible conditions of the foster care system do not justify the ending of a life, either.

Yeah, you're right, I am passionate. I am really fucking passionate about this. You want to know why?
Because on July 17th, 2010, I went on my very first date. And I was raped. And impregnated.
And I risked my life to not be pregnant. I swallowed so many pills, and I beat myself so hard I have organ damage.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" have taken every single clinic out of my town and within a 2 hour radius.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" made it impossible for me to get help.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" fucked me over so bad that I was prepared to die rather than give birth.
I was on the verge of homelessness, in high school, I am severely ill, and my family is emotionally abusive.
But, hey, better I die than get an abortion free of judgement.

So when you ask me why I'm passionate about this, when you wonder why I get riled up, I'm going to tell you the same thing over and over and over.
Because people who believe what you believe nearly cost me my life.

If you were raped then you're out of bounds. I'm not referring to rape cases.

I'm only talking about women who can't keep their legs closed when they know they're in a bad situation.

It's just being responsible. I chose to abstain even though it was very difficult because I'm incredible attractive, but I did it and now things are working out perfectly with me and my hot Irish fiance.

[Shilya]

And so does the fetus have a right to stay alive, to a certain extent. Rights need to be weighted against each other. Is one person being in temporary pain worth another one getting to live? In other words, does your right not to be in pain exceed that of the fetus to be alive?

Yes, because she has to consent to it being there in the first place.

The consent is called sex. Actions, consequences, my post to you.

[Viritica]

The fucking trash heap that is Tennessee. Get me the hell out.

come to NY, we'd love you

I used to be able to see the twinkling lights of NYC from my old town.

'Twas beautiful, it was.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

The fucking trash heap that is Tennessee. Get me the hell out.

come to NY, we'd love you

When I was married, I lived in NYC, up in Harlem. I miss it so much. I wish I could have seen the rest of NY.

[Shilya]

And so does the fetus have a right to stay alive, to a certain extent. Rights need to be weighted against each other. Is one person being in temporary pain worth another one getting to live? In other words, does your right not to be in pain exceed that of the fetus to be alive?

Let's say a fetus has all the rights you have.
You don't have a right to my body.
Neither does the fetus.
If you are violating my right to bodily sovereignty, I have a right to make you stop.
I have a right to make the fetus stop, too.

A child has the right to be cared for by its parents, we have tons of legislation on that. I don't have a right to your body, that's true, but your child has a right to your resources, by virtue of you creating the child, hence having responsibility for your creation. If you make something, it's your responsibility. You buy it, you keep it, so to speak.

In light of your other post, no, this doesn't apply to rape cases, because duh.

[The New Sea Territory]

Yes, because she has to consent to it being there in the first place.

The consent is called sex. Actions, consequences, my post to you.

So I'm guessing your moral absolutes aren't absolute, and since rape is not consensual, abortion is ok then.

[Othelos]

Yeah, you're right, I am passionate. I am really fucking passionate about this. You want to know why?
Because on July 17th, 2010, I went on my very first date. And I was raped. And impregnated.
And I risked my life to not be pregnant. I swallowed so many pills, and I beat myself so hard I have organ damage.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" have taken every single clinic out of my town and within a 2 hour radius.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" made it impossible for me to get help.
Because people who believe that "abortion is ethically reprehensible" fucked me over so bad that I was prepared to die rather than give birth.
I was on the verge of homelessness, in high school, I am severely ill, and my family is emotionally abusive.
But, hey, better I die than get an abortion free of judgement.

So when you ask me why I'm passionate about this, when you wonder why I get riled up, I'm going to tell you the same thing over and over and over.
Because people who believe what you believe nearly cost me my life.

If you were raped then you're out of bounds. I'm not referring to rape cases.

I'm only talking about women who can't keep their legs closed when they know they're in a bad situation.

It's just being responsible. I chose to abstain even though it was very difficult because I'm incredible attractive, but I did it and now things are working out perfectly with me and my hot Irish fiance.

good for you. now stop projecting your life choices onto others.