A question for socialists

[Tevona]

My question is this: why do you disagree with class collaboration? Why instead do you wish to destroy the bourgeois ? When both classes can be united to work together for the common good of the community.

I would say that true class collaboration is impossible; Decisions will always be made in the interests of capital, not in the interests of the community as a whole.

Promote a patriotic, nationalist culture where instead of mere employees, workers are viewed as equal to their employers based on a nationalist point of view? Where instead of exploiting them, they are treated with respect, and given a fair share of their dues.

If there are different classes based on ownership of the means of production, there is exploitation. For workers to be given a fair share of their views, then capitalist relations of production need to be abolished.

And where the owner is encouraged to do business locally and stimulate the local economy, transparent accounts?

I think you're being unrealistic here. While individual business owners may choose to do as you say, capital in general has globalising ambitions.

I agree this sounds unrealistically Utopian, however, isn't what Marx envisaged practically reliant on a sudden turning point where every human suddenly accrues mass benevolence?

No, that isn't what Marx envisaged at all.

Just asking why some of you disagree with class collaboration.

No problem.

[Chestaan]

First of all let's clear things up, socialists want to destroy the bourgeoisie as a class but don't want to destroy the actual members of the bourgeoisie. We simply want no class differences to exist, everyone owns the means of production. Class collaboration can't work because it still leaves classes intact, thus the working class won't get their due in such a system. Also nationalism? No thanks...

[Arglorand]

Hello.

My question is this: why do you disagree with class collaboration? Why instead do you wish to destroy the bourgeois ? When both classes can be united to work together for the common good of the community.

I don't wish to destroy the bourgeois as people. I'm sure quite a few of them are quite nice, so I just want the liquidation of their class (and mine too, for the record - I want the liquidation of classes as a whole), nothing more.

Promote a patriotic, nationalist culture where instead of mere employees, workers are viewed as equal to their employers based on a nationalist point of view?

Why do we need to promote that culture? "equal based on a nationalist point of view" means literally nothing. Elaborate on what you mean. If you mean that employees and employers are seen as equal because they share an ethnicity, fuck no - all people are equal. If you mean that employees and employers are seen as equal because they share a nation, fuck no - all people are equal. If you mean something else, then I'm just confused as to what nationalism has do with anything.

[Dracoria]

The interests of the capitalist class and the labouring class are diametrically opposed.

Both want money. Sounds close enough to me.
That view of things is why US unions simply don't work like many European unions, especially the Scandinavian ones.

[Yanalia]

The interests of the capitalist class and the labouring class are diametrically opposed.

Both want money. Sounds close enough to me.
That view of things is why US unions simply don't work like many European unions, especially the Scandinavian ones.

Yes, but one wants it from the other.

[United Marxist Nations]

The problem with class collaboration is similar to the problem with the idea of benevolent dictatorships.

The idea behind both is the same: that even though someone(or in the case of class collaboration a group of someones) should hold a position of higher status and power than others, but don't worry because they'll play fair and in no way take advantage of that disparity in power.

It's a load of garbage, power only retreats in the face of more power. And class collaboration functioned like this in practice too, the bourgeois levied the power of the supposedly neutral state in both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy to their advantage, and to the detriment of the working class.

^This; it relies on the idea that those in power are all-benevolent. It relies on the false premise that the state can regulate society because it it above society, when, in reality, the state is a part of society, subservient to society's rules.

[Deutsches Heilige Land]

The problem with class collaboration is similar to the problem with the idea of benevolent dictatorships.

The idea behind both is the same: that even though someone(or in the case of class collaboration a group of someones) should hold a position of higher status and power than others, but don't worry because they'll play fair and in no way take advantage of that disparity in power.

It's a load of garbage, power only retreats in the face of more power. And class collaboration functioned like this in practice too, the bourgeois levied the power of the supposedly neutral state in both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy to their advantage, and to the detriment of the working class.

^This; it relies on the idea that those in power are all-benevolent. It relies on the false premise that the state can regulate society because it it above society, when, in reality, the state is a part of society, subservient to society's rules.

In a culture of nationalism and unity, where all members are considered equal because of their nationality, and raising children in such a fashion would eventually lead to a generation which puts their community first, abolishing class warfare. The Hitlerjugend are one such example. They were being raised to put Germans and Germany first, to abandon materialistic desires and replace them with a love of country and healthy morals. For this I do not have a source outside of my elder family members .

But the fact remains, creating such a culture would in effect yield these results of proper and efficient and genuine class collaboration.

[Deutsches Heilige Land]

I've seen people saying that the goals of the bourgeois and proletariat are opposed, however, with nationalism their goals are now to better the state and their people, to benefit their country so as to make it powerful and strong.

They'd abandon their Yiddish inspired materialism.

[Deutsches Heilige Land]

Uh, I'm using my android and that was a autocorrect. I'm using an app for a keyboard and it went from "impoverished" to Yiddish. I'm not blaming the Jews for running Europe with materialism. …

[Deutsches Heilige Land]

Oh God I didn't mean "running "Europe like they're controlling banks or something I meant ruining, not running.

I seriously have nothing against the Jew

[Korouse]

Uh, I'm using my android and that was a autocorrect. I'm using an app for a keyboard and it went from "impoverished" to Yiddish. I'm not blaming the Jews for running Europe with materialism. …

I think you've just made the most accidental anti-jewish comment ever on NSG.

[Deutsches Heilige Land]

Uh, I'm using my android and that was a autocorrect. I'm using an app for a keyboard and it went from "impoverished" to Yiddish. I'm not blaming the Jews for running Europe with materialism. …

I think you've just made the most accidental anti-jewish comment ever on NSG.

Yes, and apparently some think I am a fascist which makes it a lot worse.

Even when I was a national socialist I still never had anything against Jews. Infant many of us Nazis were very pro Israel.

[Korouse]

I think you've just made the most accidental anti-jewish comment ever on NSG.

Yes, and apparently some think I am a fascist which makes it a lot worse.

Even when I was a national socialist I still never had anything against Jews. Infant many of us Nazis were very pro Israel.

Your auto-correct is a skinhead apparently.

[Jinwoy]

Yes, and apparently some think I am a fascist which makes it a lot worse.

Even when I was a national socialist I still never had anything against Jews. Infant many of us Nazis were very pro Israel.

Your auto-correct is a skinhead apparently.

*Steve Jobs laughs maniacally*

[Baltenstein]

For the sake of honesty, my entire family are essentially National Socialists except for me.

Your family must not be very bright.

As for your OP question, you can just as well project it on your own proposal and ask:

Why do you disagree with multicultural collaboration? Why instead do you single-mindendly focus on nationalism? When instead all cultures can be united to work together for the common good of the community.

[Kilobugya]

My question is this: why do you disagree with class collaboration? Why instead do you wish to destroy the bourgeois ? When both classes can be united to work together for the common good of the community.

Because the two classes have antagonist interests. The bourgeoisie wants to extract as much surplus labour as possible from the working class, meaning lower wages, higher working weeks, worse working conditions. And the workers want the exact opposite. If you cooperate with a minority getting rich by exploiting a majority, you're making life worse for most people. We want to destroy the bourgeois as a class, not as individuals. We want the workers to manage themselves (through work place democracy, or by working for the society as a whole). The common good of the community isn't achieved by letting a minority exploit the rest.

Promote a patriotic, nationalist culture where instead of mere employees, workers are viewed as equal to their employers based on a nationalist point of view?

Nationalism is harmful. Humanity is the community. We share a single planet, we share a single understanding of the world. We should promote internationalism, humanity working together to discover the secrets of nature, protect the planet, build infrastructure, cure diseases and ultimately defeat death itself, explore the stars, ... And capitalism is an ennemy to making humanity work together for those high goals.

Where instead of exploiting them, they are treated with respect, and given a fair share of their dues.

The nature of the bourgeoisie is exploitation. They gain wealth not by working, but by owning the means of production, extracting surplus value from underpaid labour.

[Roski]

Because Socialism died, and they are edgy hipsters.

*nods

[Korouse]

My question is this: why do you disagree with class collaboration? Why instead do you wish to destroy the bourgeois ? When both classes can be united to work together for the common good of the community.

Because the two classes have antagonist interests. The bourgeoisie wants to extract as much surplus labour as possible from the working class, meaning lower wages, higher working weeks, worse working conditions. And the workers want the exact opposite. If you cooperate with a minority getting rich by exploiting a majority, you're making life worse for most people. We want to destroy the bourgeois as a class, not as individuals. We want the workers to manage themselves (through work place democracy, or by working for the society as a whole). The common good of the community isn't achieved by letting a minority exploit the rest.

Promote a patriotic, nationalist culture where instead of mere employees, workers are viewed as equal to their employers based on a nationalist point of view?

Nationalism is harmful. Humanity is the community. We share a single planet, we share a single understanding of the world. We should promote internationalism, humanity working together to discover the secrets of nature, protect the planet, build infrastructure, cure diseases and ultimately defeat death itself, explore the stars, ... And capitalism is an ennemy to making humanity work together for those high goals.

Where instead of exploiting them, they are treated with respect, and given a fair share of their dues.

The nature of the bourgeoisie is exploitation. They gain wealth not by working, but by owning the means of production, extracting surplus value from underpaid labour.

I love all this Anarchist post-revolution communist society every aspiring philosopher says, because it directly conflicts with human nature, in its entirety..

[Mundiferrum]

First of all let's clear things up, socialists want to destroy the bourgeoisie as a class but don't want to destroy the actual members of the bourgeoisie. We simply want no class differences to exist, everyone owns the means of production. Class collaboration can't work because it still leaves classes intact, thus the working class won't get their due in such a system. Also nationalism? No thanks...

^This. Class collaboration is a good step to begin the process of class elimination, but since it keeps the system of classes alive, it's not a good thing to keep up. With a starter of class collaboration, you could end up fostering a healthy relationship between the classes, which could ultimately lead up to the elimination of the idea of inequality, the elimination of the idea of classes.
We do want the bourgeoisie to be destroyed, but only in the sense that we'd lift everyone up to the point that there'd be no differences between the proles and the bourgeois. We do not want some stupid purge.
And yeah, socialism is utopian. But just because no utopias have yet to be observed, does not mean that they're impossible; best to just keep on trying to push these ideals, so as to open up the chance as much as we can. Nationalism is a good way to push these ideals, since the idea of "nations" can unite a lot of people; so is religion, I believe (I'll cite Machiavelli here, though it's been too long since I've last read his works). Of course, both ideas have to be tempered to truly work: if you're gonna be nationalistic, that doesn't mean that you're gonna be against all people not of your nations, like some National Socialists in this world....

[Deutsches Heilige Land]

For the sake of honesty, my entire family are essentially National Socialists except for me.

Your family must not be very bright.

As for your OP question, you can just as well project it on your own proposal and ask:

Why do you disagree with multicultural collaboration? Why instead do you single-mindendly focus on nationalism? When instead all cultures can be united to work together for the common good of the community.

Are you really going to come in here and insult my family?

Please don't do that, I have very severe anger issues and I'll end up having a terrible day full of anger and hate

There's no reason to insult anyone's family in this forum

[Korouse]

Your family must not be very bright.

As for your OP question, you can just as well project it on your own proposal and ask:

Why do you disagree with multicultural collaboration? Why instead do you single-mindendly focus on nationalism? When instead all cultures can be united to work together for the common good of the community.

Are you really going to come in here and insult my family?

Please don't do that, I have very severe anger issues and I'll end up having a terrible day full of anger and hate

There's no reason to insult anyone's family in this forum

Don't worry. Go report it. Besides, he's not that bright economically if your family owns a business and he doesn't ^_^

[Aquillus]

The interests of the capitalist class and the labouring class are diametrically opposed.

This, basically. Collaboration does not tend to work if the parties involved have diverging goals and interests.

[Baltenstein]

Your family must not be very bright.

As for your OP question, you can just as well project it on your own proposal and ask:

Why do you disagree with multicultural collaboration? Why instead do you single-mindendly focus on nationalism? When instead all cultures can be united to work together for the common good of the community.

Are you really going to come in here and insult my family?

Please don't do that, I have very severe anger issues and I'll end up having a terrible day full of anger and hate

There's no reason to insult anyone's family in this forum

Well, when you write (without anybody actually asking for that information, mind) that all your family are National Socialists, what kind of response do you expect?
"Congratulations and Sieg Heil"?

If you have anger issues, go seek therapy.

My other question (why focus on a nationalist economy/society instead of an internationalist one) still stands.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Your family must not be very bright.

As for your OP question, you can just as well project it on your own proposal and ask:

Why do you disagree with multicultural collaboration? Why instead do you single-mindendly focus on nationalism? When instead all cultures can be united to work together for the common good of the community.

Are you really going to come in here and insult my family?

Please don't do that, I have very severe anger issues and I'll end up having a terrible day full of anger and hate

There's no reason to insult anyone's family in this forum

If your entire family are national socialists they are a bunch of hateful bigots. You should probably tell them to drop all that crazy shit.

[Korouse]

Are you really going to come in here and insult my family?

Please don't do that, I have very severe anger issues and I'll end up having a terrible day full of anger and hate

There's no reason to insult anyone's family in this forum

Well, when you write (without anybody actually asking for that information, mind) that all your family are National Socialists, what kind of response do you expect?
"Congratulations and Sieg Heil"?

If you have anger issues, go seek therapy.

My other question (why focus on a nationalist economy/society instead of an internationalist one) still stands.

Jesus motherfucking Christ, are you kidding me?

Hitler wasn't a National Socialist, he was extremely state capitalist.

Even then, someone can be a Nationalist and a Socialist/Communist. Have you heard of Stalinism at fucking all? Give the guy a break.