Ray Rice Abuses Wife, Loses Job & Is Suspended Indefinitely

[The Black Forrest]

You know this almost sounds like "the bitch was asking for it" argument.

It doesn't matter she initiated it. She wasn't a credible threat.

Of course it matters. There is a world of difference between an unprovoked assault and a disproportionate response to an aggression. Her not being a credible threat only matters in the sense that it doesn't justify Rice's actions in terms of self-defence.

If I sound like I'm saying the bitch deserved it, you sound as if you think it is totally ok for a women to hit a man.

Ok. She slaps him and he is within his rights to use his fists?

Unprovoked assault? Proportional response? Self-defense? I'm sorry it still sounds like she should have known better.

[The Black Forrest]

This is an interesting thread.

Although it leads me to wonder what people make of the Hope Solo case?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/22/sports/soccer/soccer-star-hope-solo-arrested-in-assault.html?_r=0

Arrested and charged with domestic violence, not dropped by her sponsor, and no suspension whatsoever.

Only so many details in that story and you have a lawyer claiming something else.

However, probably because she was intoxicated and has no prior events?

You have to ask her sponsors and the league.

Are you suggesting this is on the same level as Rice?

[Batuni]

This is an interesting thread.

Although it leads me to wonder what people make of the Hope Solo case?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/22/sports/soccer/soccer-star-hope-solo-arrested-in-assault.html?_r=0

Arrested and charged with domestic violence, not dropped by her sponsor, and no suspension whatsoever.

Only so many details in that story and you have a lawyer claiming something else.

The officers found Solo intoxicated and upset, saw injuries to her nephew and her sister, and arrested her after speaking with those present and determining that she was the primary aggressor

Of course the lawyers claiming something else, that's their job.

However, probably because she was intoxicated and has no prior events?

Sooo, you're saying alcohol justifies leniency in domestic assault? I suspect that's not what you meant, perhaps you should rephrase that?

You have to ask her sponsors and the league.

Are you suggesting this is on the same level as Rice?

Personally, I think she should have faced some sort of suspension. Don't you?

[The Black Forrest]

Only so many details in that story and you have a lawyer claiming something else.

The officers found Solo intoxicated and upset, saw injuries to her nephew and her sister, and arrested her after speaking with those present and determining that she was the primary aggressor

Of course the lawyers claiming something else, that's their job.

However, probably because she was intoxicated and has no prior events?

Sooo, you're saying alcohol justifies leniency in domestic assault? I suspect that's not what you meant, perhaps you should rephrase that?

You have to ask her sponsors and the league.

Are you suggesting this is on the same level as Rice?

Personally, I think she should have faced some sort of suspension. Don't you?

A short little news article isn't as damning as the Rice video.

The police report would probably have more details.

As to rephrasing? Why do I need to rephrase a guess?

[Upper America]

Of course it matters. There is a world of difference between an unprovoked assault and a disproportionate response to an aggression. Her not being a credible threat only matters in the sense that it doesn't justify Rice's actions in terms of self-defence.

If I sound like I'm saying the bitch deserved it, you sound as if you think it is totally ok for a women to hit a man.

Ok. She slaps him and he is within his rights to use his fists?

Unprovoked assault? Proportional response? Self-defense? I'm sorry it still sounds like she should have known better.

Keep in mind Rice is a football player. Those guys give each other concussions from simply tackling them, and they have a ton of protective gear too. He punches her. If tacking can cause major damage, just think of what punching can do.

And this is another issue: why did Janay decide to marry him? I think she doesn't want to be in that relationship, and that she either feels threatened or has been threatened. She's even standing up for him, indicating she doesn't have enough support to tell her that Ray isn't good for her.

[Ethel mermania]

Ok. She slaps him and he is within his rights to use his fists?

Unprovoked assault? Proportional response? Self-defense? I'm sorry it still sounds like she should have known better.

Keep in mind Rice is a football player. Those guys give each other concussions from simply tackling them, and they have a ton of protective gear too. He punches her. If tacking can cause major damage, just think of what punching can do.

And this is another issue: why did Janay decide to marry him? I think she doesn't want to be in that relationship, and that she either feels threatened or has been threatened. She's even standing up for him, indicating she doesn't have enough support to tell her that Ray isn't good for her.

she married him because she loves him, and what do you base that she doesnt want to be in the relationship, when everything she has said since indicates that she does.

[Upper America]

Keep in mind Rice is a football player. Those guys give each other concussions from simply tackling them, and they have a ton of protective gear too. He punches her. If tacking can cause major damage, just think of what punching can do.

And this is another issue: why did Janay decide to marry him? I think she doesn't want to be in that relationship, and that she either feels threatened or has been threatened. She's even standing up for him, indicating she doesn't have enough support to tell her that Ray isn't good for her.

she married him because she loves him, and what do you base that she doesnt want to be in the relationship, when everything she has said since indicates that she does.

Maybe she's scared. Domestic abuse victims sometimes talk positively about the abusers, because they don't want it to happen again. He knocked her out and dragged her around. That's a significant reason to be scared.

[Ethel mermania]

she married him because she loves him, and what do you base that she doesnt want to be in the relationship, when everything she has said since indicates that she does.

Maybe she's scared. Domestic abuse victims sometimes talk positively about the abusers, because they don't want it to happen again. He knocked her out and dragged her around. That's a significant reason to be scared.

maybe the moon is made out of green cheese. everything they have both said indicate this is an abboration. her conversation with goodel is one of the reasons he sites for only the two game suspension. she refused to testify against him, She married him. as high profile as this is plenty of people would help her out of the relationship, she doesnt want it.

[Upper America]

Maybe she's scared. Domestic abuse victims sometimes talk positively about the abusers, because they don't want it to happen again. He knocked her out and dragged her around. That's a significant reason to be scared.

maybe the moon is made out of green cheese. everything they have both said indicate this is an abboration. her conversation with goodel is one of the reasons he sites for only the two game suspension. she refused to testify against him, She married him. as high profile as this is plenty of people would help her out of the relationship, she doesnt want it.

Aaaand how do you know she has a ton of support?

[Gauthier]

maybe the moon is made out of green cheese. everything they have both said indicate this is an abboration. her conversation with goodel is one of the reasons he sites for only the two game suspension. she refused to testify against him, She married him. as high profile as this is plenty of people would help her out of the relationship, she doesnt want it.

Aaaand how do you know she has a ton of support?

I suspect she would get support from people that would let little boys be assraped repeatedly if it meant a winning season for Their Team.

[Ethel mermania]

Aaaand how do you know she has a ton of support?

I suspect she would get support from people that would let little boys be assraped repeatedly if it meant a winning season for Their Team.

thats penn state, rice went to rutgers. the pedophile ass rapists are the better football team.

[Ethel mermania]

maybe the moon is made out of green cheese. everything they have both said indicate this is an abboration. her conversation with goodel is one of the reasons he sites for only the two game suspension. she refused to testify against him, She married him. as high profile as this is plenty of people would help her out of the relationship, she doesnt want it.

Aaaand how do you know she has a ton of support?

there were folks who offered shelter, when she was hit, as does the state of nj in domestic violence cases. the folks who are supporting her are supporting her right to decide.

[Upper America]

Aaaand how do you know she has a ton of support?

there were folks who offered shelter, when she was hit, as does the state of nj in domestic violence cases. the folks who are supporting her are supporting her right to decide.

I support her right to decide, too. I just don't think she is being given a right. I think Ray is bullying her.

[The Rich Port]

So, you're a Male Rights Activist.

Ah, but seriously, thank you for bringing attention to that.

I'm sure that Rice is just as abused, but... How can we remedy this, then?

Rice either dumps his abusive wife, works out his problems with, or ignores that shit and continues to live in a terrible relationship, as he has apparently been doing for years now.

If it's nigh impossible to get regular women and men to face their problems, imagine how goddamn fucking impossible it's going to be get a wealthy, cocky football player to face his problems.

I think him being suspended could be positive for him... Or he could be very stubborn and stay the course. I hope it's not the latter...

I think going into counseling before getting married to his fiancee could, in fact, be more instructive than being demonized by the media nine months after the original incident.

All the fuss here is not about the court system. The courts came, saw, Ray Rice apologized very much and agreed to go through a counseling program, and the courts decided that he seemed sincere about it and decided to give him a chance to shape up before slamming him with serious consequences. He got a better lawyer than most people, of course, but nobody seems to give a shit about the state of the public defender's office compared to private attorneys and the complexity of case law that allows for two sets of laws for rich and poor, and some people in a DV case convince the courts they're sincere about shaping up without a pricey lawyer, so that's of limited particular relevance.

The fuss here is about the NFL, and whether or not the NFL should toss Ray Rice out on his butt. It's a delayed reaction that has nothing to do with any concern over the particulars of Ray Rice and his wife (who is quite loudly telling people to butt out and is not happy about the suspension or the negative publicity). It's all about the image of the NFL - and that, I think, is true for the main part of all "sides" of the discussion about Ray Rice.

Some people really want to believe in a relationship between football and domestic violence. Others are really big fans of the game and don't want football smeared in any way. But it's not really about Ray Rice or Ray Rice facing consequences. It's about the NFL, institutions, power, and all kinds of bullshit.

Which is why I wasn't interested in commenting on the case in particular, and only hopped in to correct wrongful generalizations. Because I don't really care about the NFL, and I only care about Ray Rice and his wife about as much about any other random person who I hear about in the news. I hope that they have a happy and entirely non-violent marriage from here on out; I know that's what they both claim to want, and I'm not a horrible enough person to be hoping for bad things to happen to random strangers.

Honestly, Tahar, my problems with this are your problems with this.

And I'm afraid your hope is most likely going to be misplaced.

The thing about the wealthy and famous is that they have the most resources to make a problem go away because apparently they need them. Shit, not all of them need them, only the particularly famous ones.

I think it's less that the NFL causes domestic violence and more that the NFL enables negative behaviours in it's members and employees. I think it's fuelling that very attitude in society and in the courts.

Because, at the end of the day, it's all about the game, and how much money they can make from it.

[Ethel mermania]

there were folks who offered shelter, when she was hit, as does the state of nj in domestic violence cases. the folks who are supporting her are supporting her right to decide.

I support her right to decide, too. I just don't think she is being given a right. I think Ray is bullying her.

and i think your pulling that out of thin air

[The Black Forrest]

I support her right to decide, too. I just don't think she is being given a right. I think Ray is bullying her.

and i think your pulling that out of thin air

How so?

[Upper America]

I support her right to decide, too. I just don't think she is being given a right. I think Ray is bullying her.

and i think your pulling that out of thin air

I've noticed that you've pulled the theory of her still loving him out of thin air, too.

[Occupied Deutschland]

and i think your pulling that out of thin air

I've noticed that you've pulled the theory of her still loving him out of thin air, too.

Not especially, considering it's her stated attitude in spite of numerous opportunities to (both legally and otherwise) demonstrate that she doesn't or that Ray is bullying her.

[The Rich Port]

and i think your pulling that out of thin air

How so?

For one, that doesn't really follow the profile of women who marry men for money.

For another, that doesn't really follow profiles of women marrying men in general.

Since time immemorial, abusive tendencies manifest usually in couples that don't spend that much time together until they're cohabitating after they're married. It's only as recently as the 60's and 70's, when cohabitative pre-marital relationships became common and accepted, that this trend began to lower and change, though this will continue in more conservative societies. The couple realize too late that they are not compatible, and end up fighting over even minor things. This is what begins a cycle of abuse, with women preferring verbal and psychological abuse and men resorting to physical abuse more often. Most times, the women are the victimized; other times, they're the perpetrators and engaging in physical abuse. After that point, there are many patterns.

I think Rice's wife does have a lot in common and shares feelings for Rice, but their personalities clash. I think she (very misguidedly) believes she is partly to blame for the abuse because of the way traditional roles of wives run: wives depend on their husbands for money, and in return they are caretakers for their homes. Rice and his wife seem to fit that mould. Unfortunately, there is a stigma of those women as "gold diggers", marrying and tolerating their husband's abuses in exchange for money. I think it's more like Stockholm Syndrome mixed with women believing themselves to be "better" than, say, women that separate from their boyfriends or divorce their husbands. I've heard lots of women like Rice's wife treat their marriages like a career, an investment in their futures.

It's fucked up, and you may be right, but she doesn't seem to be following that pattern.

[Ethel mermania]

and i think your pulling that out of thin air

How so?

i dont think there is any evidence to support his position.

everything i have heard both of the rices say, makes me think she loves him, and he is horrified by what he has done.

my issue here is with the nfl, not the rice's.

[Upper America]

I've noticed that you've pulled the theory of her still loving him out of thin air, too.

Not especially, considering it's her stated attitude in spite of numerous opportunities to (both legally and otherwise) demonstrate that she doesn't or that Ray is bullying her.

Of course, she won't say anything bad about Ray if he's threatening her.

[The Rich Port]

Not especially, considering it's her stated attitude in spite of numerous opportunities to (both legally and otherwise) demonstrate that she doesn't or that Ray is bullying her.

Of course, she won't say anything bad about Ray if he's threatening her.

I seriously doubt he needs to threaten her with violence.

Threatening her with divorce would be enough.

I will say: Rice is following lots of patterns for a dominating husband.

Lots of red flags are coming up that say this match is not going to be made in heaven.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Not especially, considering it's her stated attitude in spite of numerous opportunities to (both legally and otherwise) demonstrate that she doesn't or that Ray is bullying her.

Of course, she won't say anything bad about Ray if he's threatening her.

And your evidence he is doing so is?
...
Oh, that's right. It's 'she isn't saying bad things about Ray'.

What a solid and convincing argument that definitely isn't circular at all.

[The Black Forrest]

Of course, she won't say anything bad about Ray if he's threatening her.

And your evidence he is doing so is?
...
Oh, that's right. It's 'she isn't saying bad things about Ray'.

What a solid and convincing argument that definitely isn't circular at all.

Well? Not suggesting but a friend once worked for a battered womens group and she told a couple stories of women saying everything was fine and they were ok while sporting a shiner.

We don't know what's going on in the household; we can only speculate.

Personally, I think he will hit her again. I hope he doesn't. I hope he found help on what ever it was that suggested it was ok to do that.

Time will tell and things like this; I always hope I am wrong.

[Krazakistan]

The Ray Rice incident, in my opinion, has been blown completely out of proportion by the media. Another domestic violence case but this time with celebrities? Holy shit! Grab the popcorn and turn on the TV! It's not like this happens often in the good ol' US of A! And this time there's a video of the incident? How horrifying! I can't bare to see a man mercilessly beat his wife on video but I can sure as hell bare it when reading about it in an online article!

Sarcasm aside, what Ray Rice did was a completely disproportionate response to his wife's aggression, which was, to be frank, not even that bad (bad in the sense that she wasn't a serious threat to Rice). She was not a serious threat, but she was being provocative, that much I hope we can all agree upon. But as I said previously, Rice punching his wife in the face was a disproportionate response to his wife's aggression. He should not have punched her, but have used other, less violent means of protecting himself.

The NLF's original response was not harsh enough imo, it should have been much longer with mandatory marriage and anger management classes for the couple as well as a public apology made by Rice. But an indefinite suspension? That's too much in my opinion, largely because it was just done to save face in light of all the negative media attention surrounding the incident.

Of course it matters. There is a world of difference between an unprovoked assault and a disproportionate response to an aggression. Her not being a credible threat only matters in the sense that it doesn't justify Rice's actions in terms of self-defence.

If I sound like I'm saying the bitch deserved it, you sound as if you think it is totally ok for a women to hit a man.

Ok. She slaps him and he is within his rights to use his fists?

Unprovoked assault? Proportional response? Self-defense? I'm sorry it still sounds like she should have known better.

He never said that Rice was "within his rights" in the least bit for punching his wife and knocking her out.

What he has been saying is that what Rice did was not unprovoked assault (which, to clarify, would be hitting someone for literally no reason), but rather was a disproportionate response to his wife's aggression. Disproportionate is being used in the sense that Rice should have used other, less violent, means to protect himself rather than punching his wife in the face, like restraining his wife. Which he could have done quite easily as he is unquestionably stronger than his wife.